Dick Allen

QUOTE (chunk23 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 07:15 PM) If you aren't looking to replace your worst position player with an absolute steal (3 for $33M!) I don't know what you're doing. It is hard to understand. I have been the one preaching different prices for different players, but if $11 million a year is too much for Dexter Fowler, I am coming to the realization that they really couldn't have been very serious about any of the others. at least they can still get an upgrade.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 01:33 PM) Way too early to say that. We'll know more in like April or May. Hostetler really lit up when someone asked him about Ray at Soxfest. Obviously the connection with him playing in their ACE program, but he couldn't hide the giddiness.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 07:05 PM) I don't understand why the Sox should have paid Fowler and given up a valuable pick just because he's better than what they currently have. It would have been humorous to see White Sox fans complaining about Fowler's deal next offseason though. That is where I disagree. The guy if he stays healthy is going to give you over a 2 WAR. He has consistently dome that. Plus it is an upgrade that may be the difference in the team's season. If he does what he has done, No one would be complaining if you owed him $23 million the next 2 seasons. Hopefully Hahn and KW and JR prove to be correct, and either they bring in a better deal, or Avi makes fools of the doubters. And they select a guy with the pick they save that eventually helps the team as well.

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 06:51 PM) excellent break down, for s***s and grins, what will you see has jackson in that same scenario but on the sox??? I don't think there is any question he is a better defender than Fowler, the question would be offense. He has struggled since being traded from Detroit, and wasn't so great his last couple of months there, but he is only 29 and could bounce back. I really like him ,but really wonder about the cost, and think he hits from the wrong side of the plate for the White Sox brass. They seem to wanted a lefty bat. But OBP is really not a strength. It would be great to have a legit gold glover everywhere, but you can get by with mediocre defense in the OF at USCF. There isn't much space. Small parks, you can get away with it. The Cubs won a lot of games with Schwarber, Fowler, and Soler. Their defensive prowess is questionable at best.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 06:36 PM) If they sign Jackson for peanuts I get it. If they trade for Ethier without giving any of our big prospects I get it. If Avi is still our primary RF come opening day then don't get it. Fowler wasn't perfect by any means, but he would have been a significant upgrade over Avi and that's all we really need to have a good shot at winning the division. Exactly how I feel. Not only that, but his strength offensively is OBP, something this team could really use. Let Wbreu hit with some runners on base, and someone behind him who can drive home runs, and see what happens. On the bright side, if the Orioles sign Gallardo as well, they forfeit #14 and #28 so the Sox 3rd pick moves up 2 spots. It will probably be the most scrutinized late 20s pick in White Sox history.

I feel bad for Avi. He tries. He has sucked but many Sox players have sucked and haven't brought out the hate, even to the point of getting booed at Soxfest as much as he. I just think it's from the Little Miggy stuff, to the potential 30/30 stuff he just probably had no shot of living up to working against him. Harold Minor was Baby Jordan. Did his home team fans hate him? If he starts, there is going to be so much pressure on him. Even if somehow he hits, is he suddenly going to know how to track down a fly All? Is he suddenly going to remember the good things Vince Coleman told him about running the bases? BTW, is Vince still with the White Sox?

Except for 2014 because he missed 50 games, Fowler has always put up a WAR over 2.1 since 2010. There is an excellent chance this deal doesn't come back to bite the Orioles, he has been pretty consistent with the WAR, so the risk IMO is my opinion is minimal.

QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 05:40 PM) That's a great deal for Baltimore. Yes it is.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 05:39 PM) Sox have the 26th pick now - right? 27th.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 05:37 PM) Until he fails his physical... Very true. I am extremely disappointed the Sox couldn't or wouldn't go to this level. I still think they have another move they will make, but if they don't, and Avi fails, they deserve all the grief they are going to get.

So the Sox pick would be back to #28 correct? Unless you are just messing with the player, if there is something wrong enough with this physical to hold up the signing, why would you give up #14 for that opportunity?

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 12:49 PM) in retrospect, you are changing your tune, and i like that, thinking on the fly. but again, it goes back to the premise of my discussions, they have the money and even you admitted so, by the example of shopping. trying to build a team on a penny budget. The less the upgrade, the less JR, you, or me would be willing to pay. It doesn't make one cheap. It doesn't mean the money is not there. You don't spend to spend. There is no question the Sox need to upgrade the OF in my mind. Cespedes would have been nice. Fowler would be nice. Jackson would be nice. It has to make sense. Locking yourself into a mistake causes problems down the road.

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 12:44 PM) i would also like to add, it is really not the place of the fans to tell the owners how to use their money, but it is the place of the fans to relay to the owners of the fans displeasure of how the team is being run, and the only way to get their attention is thru not buying tickets. affect them where it hurts, money. Sox fans have been doing that for years.

I agree with the posters who think the Sox were making offers to the big 3 guys. But the question is how much would it have really cost the White Sox to sign them? It's not like ebay where another $1 would have been enough. And at what point does the price become too much? We will see what they do about an OF. Obviously they had Rollins in the wings as the alternative to Desmond. He most likely will not be as good as Desmond, cost wise, I could see where it makes sense. As far as the OF goes, we will see. I think 2/$25 million for Fowler is a gamble they should take. Maybe they have an alternative that comes to light in a bit where you could see why they wouldn't do that. It's like shopping on Stubhub. Your available funds are based on the quality available seats. Where you might be willing to spend $100 on certain seats, you won't spend $25 on others.

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 12:25 PM) first, no one knows if the reason the sox walked away, if they were in on the desmond, was b/c of the draft pick. no know that. second, you and others are keying on 2 or the 3 players, and saying phrases of, they will not have sign anywhere else. but it does come back to the money, b/c no one knows if the sox even made an offer. there were no chatter of that. third, again if the funds were so tight, then sell the team lastly using other teams esp the yanks as an example is a little weak, the yanks, thru there press has mention that they want to reduce there team salary. per sportac their team salary going into 2016 is at $220 million. seeing you and other poster trying to justify the reluctance of the sox spending, this remind me of the phrase of Tilting at windmills' Funds must be tight league wide because of Cespedes, Gordon, Upton, Fowler, Desmond, and Jackson, the free agents most mentioned on this board, at this point, 3 of the 30 teams ponied up the cash to sign them. Are the White Sox the only other team that could use their services?

Someday one of these types of signings will work out really well. Maybe this is the year and both Latos and Rollins look like bargains.

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 12:04 PM) first, it is deceit of the owners if they were really not going to make an effort to get anyone, the next question should be, why did they, the sox FO do this??? soxfest comes to mind and trying to pacify the fans, getting the fans in the band wagon to purchase tickets. second, if they did make funds available, then that in itself says that the money is there, why hold back??? Because different players make different impacts on teams and the box office. It's a big deal if the Sox sign Cespedes, not so much if they sign Fowler. Take Desmond. I'm sure the Sox wouldn't mind having Ian Desmond on their roster, but apparently not at the cost of a draft pick and the money difference for Jimmy Rollins. I am sure they wouldn't mind having Fowler on their team either, but apparently not at the price he is asking even though they could pay it without the checks bouncing. I think one thing you are missing is there are a lot of teams that could use these guys. But Gordon and Cespedes liked where they were. Upton went to a team that doesn't care how much it costs. No one has signed Fowler. No one has signed Desmond. No one has signed Jackson. How are the White Sox cheap but not the rest of the league? Who have the Yankees signed this offseason?

QUOTE (Dunt @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 11:51 AM) Therein lies the fundamental problem with the White Sox organization. They "are in" on top tier free agents, but only on their terms, which in reality aren't realistic, so it's basically a bunch of lip service. They signed Robertson, Melky, Abreu.....all teams have their limits. The Dodgers who supposedly have no limits let Greinke go. If the Sox gave Cespedes $150 million and he stunk up the joint, all the people who wanted him now would be calling the White Sox idiots.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 11:29 AM) Lmao oh Baltimore. Yeah, who would have guessed it? You can rip JR and the White Sox all you want, but Baltimore and their physicals....why would a free agent go there if he is offered anything similar anywhere else. At the very best you are getting something similar. But you are risking flunking the physical and therefore costing yourself money elsewhere. It has to be a worst case scenario destination at this point.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 10:51 AM) I guess I don't necessarily agree that the deals being offered to players like Rollins and Latos are necessarily out of desperation as much as shrewd negotiation. I don't know that Latos couldn't have been signed for more, I just accept that $3 million is the most that Rick Hahn was willing to pay him. This is one of Rick Hahn's core competencies. In regards to the Sox being connected to certain players, I understand what you are saying, but if players' agents are using my organization in an attempt to drive market behavior while I know my organization is not involved in serious negotiations, I would be at the very least, making some better attempts to quash that message. As we have seen, leading on your fanbase only results in a disappointed fanbase, despite some really good progress otherwise. First off, the fanbase would probably be more pissed the Sox didn't make an attempt at these guys than being an also ran. And letting teams "use" you does have it's advantages. It can drive prices up, and therefore reduce available funds for your competitors in regards to players you do go after. That said, I don't think it was BS the Sox were in on Gordon and Cespedes. I just think money available for them was not made available for lesser players. They have price for Fowler and Desmond. Rollins apparently was the alternative to Desmond, and they probably have an alternative to Fowler.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 10:07 AM) versus what, Dick? Bruce's OBPs of .281 and .291 the last 2 years playing in a NL bandbox? He hits like Chris Carter. I remember your response when I suggested the Sox pick him up ( at 1/6 of the salary and zero acquisition cost). Yea, Saunders got hurt in 2014. He hit well before the injury and he hit well the month after the injury. But by all means, let 36 ABs in 2015 trump that. You are basing his "improvement" on an injury plaqued year. Before his .341 OBP in half a season in 2014, his career high was .323. Bruce's career OBP is .319. You might also want to note that since half seasons show a lot, Jay Bruce had a .341 OBP at the All Star break last year. Bruce isn't the answer, but neither is Michael Saunders. And it's not a White Sox thing to think Bruce is probably better than Saunders. The Blue Jays were going to make that trade.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 09:40 AM) 2012 - .306 2013 - .323 2014- .341 2015 - injured Notice the trend? Come on, even you can see it. And on an AL team that played in a pitchers' park (v. an NL bandbox) as well. Young players do improve. And believe me, I know it goes against the conventional wisdom on here and in the Sox org. to suggest that. Love of decliners is a security blanket. "Don't blame us; we picked up a player who was good once. Who could have known he was out of gas? Not our fault." So much easier than giving young players a chance and risking they fail. And bad veterans has been such a bountiful strategy. So 1 year above average, and even that year he missed most of the 2nd half hurt. He has about 80 plate appearances the last year and and half. I noticed you didn't include last year's total because of the injury probably using sample size so it won't fit into your narrative. The Sox have given Avi a lot of ABs. How many more ABs do they need to give him before it would be OK with you they moved on? It's not only hitting. He has shown he cannot field or run the bases well.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) This thread is already a dumpster fire. I'll never understand why people are so worried about a team not in the White Sox division when they claim to be White Sox fans. Just pointless. I'm a White Sox fan who hates the Cubs. I am not unique. It will not ever change. I hate them as much now as ever. I am sorry if some think it is offensive when I take great joy when the Cubs fail. It won't make me stop. But since they have already handed them the WS trophy for this season, I think the hatred goes up even further.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 09:09 AM) Frazier and Lawrie aren't bad defenders though. Not as good as Sanchez and Saladino but I'll take the slightly worse defense for way better offense. The bad defense isn't why the White Sox were horrible last year. It was having an all time bad offense. Yes. The White Sox significantly upgraded the defense during the season last year. Saladino was phenomenal at 3B, Sanchez great at 2B, Trayce spent some time in the OF, yet it didn't lead to many more wins compared to when horrid defenders Gillaspie, Micah, and Avi or Melky were in there. You have to score to win. As long as these guys are at least average with the glove, make the plays they should make, and score runs, they will be fine.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 08:49 AM) Bruce is a marginal upgrade from AVI IF both repeat their last 2 seasons. Bruce hasn't had an OBP over .300 in the last 2 years. How much more of that kind of hitting do the Sox need? Bruce is worth a middle reliever, I guess. But that's about it. People constantly want to sell low and buy high, which is what dumping Avi would be. Much rather the Saunders side of that deal anyway, if he were healthy. I don't want Bruce, but exactly how would he be buying high? It is pretty funny you would like Saunders in a post you complain about OBP considering his career OBP is .301. I've come to the conclusion you like players based on salary. The lower the better. JR might have is eye on you.