Dick Allen

I feel bad for Avi. He tries. He has sucked but many Sox players have sucked and haven't brought out the hate, even to the point of getting booed at Soxfest as much as he. I just think it's from the Little Miggy stuff, to the potential 30/30 stuff he just probably had no shot of living up to working against him. Harold Minor was Baby Jordan. Did his home team fans hate him? If he starts, there is going to be so much pressure on him. Even if somehow he hits, is he suddenly going to know how to track down a fly All? Is he suddenly going to remember the good things Vince Coleman told him about running the bases? BTW, is Vince still with the White Sox?

Except for 2014 because he missed 50 games, Fowler has always put up a WAR over 2.1 since 2010. There is an excellent chance this deal doesn't come back to bite the Orioles, he has been pretty consistent with the WAR, so the risk IMO is my opinion is minimal.

QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 05:40 PM) That's a great deal for Baltimore. Yes it is.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 05:39 PM) Sox have the 26th pick now - right? 27th.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 05:37 PM) Until he fails his physical... Very true. I am extremely disappointed the Sox couldn't or wouldn't go to this level. I still think they have another move they will make, but if they don't, and Avi fails, they deserve all the grief they are going to get.

So the Sox pick would be back to #28 correct? Unless you are just messing with the player, if there is something wrong enough with this physical to hold up the signing, why would you give up #14 for that opportunity?

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 12:49 PM) in retrospect, you are changing your tune, and i like that, thinking on the fly. but again, it goes back to the premise of my discussions, they have the money and even you admitted so, by the example of shopping. trying to build a team on a penny budget. The less the upgrade, the less JR, you, or me would be willing to pay. It doesn't make one cheap. It doesn't mean the money is not there. You don't spend to spend. There is no question the Sox need to upgrade the OF in my mind. Cespedes would have been nice. Fowler would be nice. Jackson would be nice. It has to make sense. Locking yourself into a mistake causes problems down the road.

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 12:44 PM) i would also like to add, it is really not the place of the fans to tell the owners how to use their money, but it is the place of the fans to relay to the owners of the fans displeasure of how the team is being run, and the only way to get their attention is thru not buying tickets. affect them where it hurts, money. Sox fans have been doing that for years.

I agree with the posters who think the Sox were making offers to the big 3 guys. But the question is how much would it have really cost the White Sox to sign them? It's not like ebay where another $1 would have been enough. And at what point does the price become too much? We will see what they do about an OF. Obviously they had Rollins in the wings as the alternative to Desmond. He most likely will not be as good as Desmond, cost wise, I could see where it makes sense. As far as the OF goes, we will see. I think 2/$25 million for Fowler is a gamble they should take. Maybe they have an alternative that comes to light in a bit where you could see why they wouldn't do that. It's like shopping on Stubhub. Your available funds are based on the quality available seats. Where you might be willing to spend $100 on certain seats, you won't spend $25 on others.

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 12:25 PM) first, no one knows if the reason the sox walked away, if they were in on the desmond, was b/c of the draft pick. no know that. second, you and others are keying on 2 or the 3 players, and saying phrases of, they will not have sign anywhere else. but it does come back to the money, b/c no one knows if the sox even made an offer. there were no chatter of that. third, again if the funds were so tight, then sell the team lastly using other teams esp the yanks as an example is a little weak, the yanks, thru there press has mention that they want to reduce there team salary. per sportac their team salary going into 2016 is at $220 million. seeing you and other poster trying to justify the reluctance of the sox spending, this remind me of the phrase of Tilting at windmills' Funds must be tight league wide because of Cespedes, Gordon, Upton, Fowler, Desmond, and Jackson, the free agents most mentioned on this board, at this point, 3 of the 30 teams ponied up the cash to sign them. Are the White Sox the only other team that could use their services?

Someday one of these types of signings will work out really well. Maybe this is the year and both Latos and Rollins look like bargains.

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 12:04 PM) first, it is deceit of the owners if they were really not going to make an effort to get anyone, the next question should be, why did they, the sox FO do this??? soxfest comes to mind and trying to pacify the fans, getting the fans in the band wagon to purchase tickets. second, if they did make funds available, then that in itself says that the money is there, why hold back??? Because different players make different impacts on teams and the box office. It's a big deal if the Sox sign Cespedes, not so much if they sign Fowler. Take Desmond. I'm sure the Sox wouldn't mind having Ian Desmond on their roster, but apparently not at the cost of a draft pick and the money difference for Jimmy Rollins. I am sure they wouldn't mind having Fowler on their team either, but apparently not at the price he is asking even though they could pay it without the checks bouncing. I think one thing you are missing is there are a lot of teams that could use these guys. But Gordon and Cespedes liked where they were. Upton went to a team that doesn't care how much it costs. No one has signed Fowler. No one has signed Desmond. No one has signed Jackson. How are the White Sox cheap but not the rest of the league? Who have the Yankees signed this offseason?

QUOTE (Dunt @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 11:51 AM) Therein lies the fundamental problem with the White Sox organization. They "are in" on top tier free agents, but only on their terms, which in reality aren't realistic, so it's basically a bunch of lip service. They signed Robertson, Melky, Abreu.....all teams have their limits. The Dodgers who supposedly have no limits let Greinke go. If the Sox gave Cespedes $150 million and he stunk up the joint, all the people who wanted him now would be calling the White Sox idiots.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 11:29 AM) Lmao oh Baltimore. Yeah, who would have guessed it? You can rip JR and the White Sox all you want, but Baltimore and their physicals....why would a free agent go there if he is offered anything similar anywhere else. At the very best you are getting something similar. But you are risking flunking the physical and therefore costing yourself money elsewhere. It has to be a worst case scenario destination at this point.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 10:51 AM) I guess I don't necessarily agree that the deals being offered to players like Rollins and Latos are necessarily out of desperation as much as shrewd negotiation. I don't know that Latos couldn't have been signed for more, I just accept that $3 million is the most that Rick Hahn was willing to pay him. This is one of Rick Hahn's core competencies. In regards to the Sox being connected to certain players, I understand what you are saying, but if players' agents are using my organization in an attempt to drive market behavior while I know my organization is not involved in serious negotiations, I would be at the very least, making some better attempts to quash that message. As we have seen, leading on your fanbase only results in a disappointed fanbase, despite some really good progress otherwise. First off, the fanbase would probably be more pissed the Sox didn't make an attempt at these guys than being an also ran. And letting teams "use" you does have it's advantages. It can drive prices up, and therefore reduce available funds for your competitors in regards to players you do go after. That said, I don't think it was BS the Sox were in on Gordon and Cespedes. I just think money available for them was not made available for lesser players. They have price for Fowler and Desmond. Rollins apparently was the alternative to Desmond, and they probably have an alternative to Fowler.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 10:07 AM) versus what, Dick? Bruce's OBPs of .281 and .291 the last 2 years playing in a NL bandbox? He hits like Chris Carter. I remember your response when I suggested the Sox pick him up ( at 1/6 of the salary and zero acquisition cost). Yea, Saunders got hurt in 2014. He hit well before the injury and he hit well the month after the injury. But by all means, let 36 ABs in 2015 trump that. You are basing his "improvement" on an injury plaqued year. Before his .341 OBP in half a season in 2014, his career high was .323. Bruce's career OBP is .319. You might also want to note that since half seasons show a lot, Jay Bruce had a .341 OBP at the All Star break last year. Bruce isn't the answer, but neither is Michael Saunders. And it's not a White Sox thing to think Bruce is probably better than Saunders. The Blue Jays were going to make that trade.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 09:40 AM) 2012 - .306 2013 - .323 2014- .341 2015 - injured Notice the trend? Come on, even you can see it. And on an AL team that played in a pitchers' park (v. an NL bandbox) as well. Young players do improve. And believe me, I know it goes against the conventional wisdom on here and in the Sox org. to suggest that. Love of decliners is a security blanket. "Don't blame us; we picked up a player who was good once. Who could have known he was out of gas? Not our fault." So much easier than giving young players a chance and risking they fail. And bad veterans has been such a bountiful strategy. So 1 year above average, and even that year he missed most of the 2nd half hurt. He has about 80 plate appearances the last year and and half. I noticed you didn't include last year's total because of the injury probably using sample size so it won't fit into your narrative. The Sox have given Avi a lot of ABs. How many more ABs do they need to give him before it would be OK with you they moved on? It's not only hitting. He has shown he cannot field or run the bases well.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) This thread is already a dumpster fire. I'll never understand why people are so worried about a team not in the White Sox division when they claim to be White Sox fans. Just pointless. I'm a White Sox fan who hates the Cubs. I am not unique. It will not ever change. I hate them as much now as ever. I am sorry if some think it is offensive when I take great joy when the Cubs fail. It won't make me stop. But since they have already handed them the WS trophy for this season, I think the hatred goes up even further.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 09:09 AM) Frazier and Lawrie aren't bad defenders though. Not as good as Sanchez and Saladino but I'll take the slightly worse defense for way better offense. The bad defense isn't why the White Sox were horrible last year. It was having an all time bad offense. Yes. The White Sox significantly upgraded the defense during the season last year. Saladino was phenomenal at 3B, Sanchez great at 2B, Trayce spent some time in the OF, yet it didn't lead to many more wins compared to when horrid defenders Gillaspie, Micah, and Avi or Melky were in there. You have to score to win. As long as these guys are at least average with the glove, make the plays they should make, and score runs, they will be fine.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 08:49 AM) Bruce is a marginal upgrade from AVI IF both repeat their last 2 seasons. Bruce hasn't had an OBP over .300 in the last 2 years. How much more of that kind of hitting do the Sox need? Bruce is worth a middle reliever, I guess. But that's about it. People constantly want to sell low and buy high, which is what dumping Avi would be. Much rather the Saunders side of that deal anyway, if he were healthy. I don't want Bruce, but exactly how would he be buying high? It is pretty funny you would like Saunders in a post you complain about OBP considering his career OBP is .301. I've come to the conclusion you like players based on salary. The lower the better. JR might have is eye on you.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 08:44 AM) I'd do Petricka and Garcia for Bruce as well. Bruce has been bad but he offers LH power. I'd consider Saunders as well if it's cheap. Isn't Saunders knee the reason the trade didn't work?

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 08:41 AM) What do you like about him? Groundball %? I'm really just curious as I think he's the bullpen guy that I'd move ideally. His Walks/Hits to K% is bad and a recipe for disaster at some point if you ask me. I think he is going to start striking people out a bit more, and he does keep the ball in the park. Plus he's a rubber arm. You can abuse him if necessary.

I really like Petricka. I hope the Sox don't trade him for someone fairly average or below.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Feb 23, 2016 -> 07:56 AM) I have my doubts the Sox ever wanted Saladino to be a full-time starter too. But I think it's for a more positive reason. With his athleticism, speed, and defensive abilities, Saladino has a chance of being an outstanding super-utility guy (SS, 3B, 2B, OF ... even train him to be an emergency C as well to maximize roster flexibility). He'll never be Zobrist with the bat, but he'll be a far better defensive player and he very well might max out as decent with the bat (plus with occasional pop). I really like him for that role and I have a strong sense that Rick and the gang see that in him too. As for Rollins, I think adding him on a minor league deal (given the above about Saladino) was a great move. If he's got a reasonable amount left in the tank (and there is ample reason to suspect he does), then he'll be a very good bridge to Anderson. Plus, leadership IS an actual thing. Especially in baseball. I love advanced metrics as well as the next guy (well, most of the next guys), but there is no metric available to account for how certain players can help boost the quantitative metrics of other players. You don't think that Mark Buehrle and Matt Thornton added value to Chris Sale? Sale will tell you otherwise. Veterans and strong character guys like Jimmy Rollins and Alex Avila will absolutely help lay a stronger foundation for and bring out the best in talented (but rudderless) guys like Lawrie and Soxtalk's favorite whipping boy -- Avi Garcia. I love the idea of baseball QUALITY rubbing off on guys like Lawrie and Garcia (and later Tim Anderson) over the course of the very long baseball season. In the new BP, one of their writers wrote a break up letter to WAR. It was pretty interesting. His jist was WAR is still good, there is just some things WAR cannot measure like leadership, that he thinks is important. It was a pretty clever letter. There's a reason Rollins can be had for a minor league contract. We all know it. But, what does it hurt to see what he's got? The cost is right. At the very least, it keeps Saladino on his toes this spring. Maybe Rollins makes the team and does well. Maybe he makes the team and he sucks. Maybe he doesn't make the team. We will see, but there is zero harm, and perhaps being around him in the spring does the younger guys some good.

QUOTE (LDF @ Feb 22, 2016 -> 11:55 PM) to me, there was really no intention of signing any big FA or OF'er this yr, he says it right there, in the bold. they are done. I disagree. I think they were willing to stretch it for certain guys. I am over the disappointment of them not getting Gordon or Cespedes or Upton. But upgrades remain. I do think sometimes they have to bite the bullet and take a chance, and I don't think signing Fowler to a 2 year contract around $25 million is a huge risk these days. I still think they will add an OF. If not, it will be a downer. Especially if Avi performs like the sabermatricians think he will, not how the Sox hope he will.