Dick Allen

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 10:05 AM) How did the 05-06 Sox attendance compare to the 05-06 Cubs? I dont really know the best source for that type of data. The 79-83 Cubs outdrew the 2005 World Champions by 758,000 The 66-96 2006 Cubs outdrew the defending champions who set their franchise attendance record by 166k.

When the White Sox won the WS, a year they never where not in first place even for a day, they had below AL average attendance. When they won the division in 2000, they were over 300k below average attendance wise. That is probably where they are at right now. Win a division, you will be about 4k a game below average. Win a playoff series or 3, you will get a bump the next season. 2000 300k below AL average 2005 18k below AL average 2008 36k above AL average It isn't really like the Sox fanbase goes overboard to support a winner. They become average.

QUOTE (MDWhiteSoxFan @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 07:51 AM) At first I was very optimistic about one of the big 3. Yo being who I was most optimistic about with all the reports. Upton getting 6 years 130+ diminishes all optimism for Yo. That said I would be cool with going A Jackson and someone like Latos on a prove it deal. I'm not a fan of giving up a pick for Fowler who I've been a fan of his tools since his days in Colorado. People suggesting Desmond for stop gap SS then OF next year. Has he ever played the OF? I don't follow the Nats but he never blew me away when I would occasionally watch the game so I'm not the best to judge him but for the price difference I guess him paired with Jackson and Latos would be OK. No he's never played the OF. It was mentioned on the intranet a month or so ago, and a couple of people ran with it, but if he isn't worth the contract he is going to get as a SS, I have no idea why he would be worth it as an OF. He would have to be a SS. It would make no sense to bring him in as a OF. If you want to work with him when you get him to see if he is truly capable of that, and to make room for Anderson or Saladino at SS, that makes sense. But to bring him in as anything but a SS initially would be hard to understand the logic.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 09:00 PM) I know you're the "blame the customer" guy, but your point on ratings is exactly why the Sox need to invest in the team and go into the red if needed. Our current TV deal expires in 2019 and if ratings to continue to suck, we're going to get a s***ty long-term TV deal. Therefore, there is every incentive in the world for Reinsdorf to spend some money and build some excitement for this team. The potential payoff in the long-run would be tenfold the likely short-term costs. While what you say I mostly agree with, there is zero chance if the terms were s***ty that the White Sox would sign a long term deal,

QUOTE (Lillian @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 05:21 PM) Isn't knowledge of the strike zone, and patience at the plate, one of the most translatable skills? If a player could draw walks at a 20% clip, in AA, wouldn't you be impressed? Oh, like Tyler Flowers?

I think another thing that has to spook them at least a little bit was the lack of attendees during the 2012 season when they were in first place a good deal of the way. They have to think that making the playoffs is they only way they can increase attendance significantly, and that won't happen until the following season, and going by 2008, that might not work either.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 03:18 PM) I would really dispute if they are really improved. Losing Alexi will hurt more than most think. Not enough OBP guys at the top to make the power acquisition of Frazier worthwhile and I really am I not sure that Lawrie will be an upgrade of what I think Sanchez would have done this season. The rotation is not any better and the bullpen is worse. Catcher may be a wash, but the continuity that came from pitchers working with Flowers is gone which may be a negative as well. Given the further expected decline of LaRoche and Cabrera and I don't think that you can say that this team is improved. I think the Frazier acquisition was necessary just to get the team back up to their level of last season. I really hate the idea of giving up young assets, especially Montas seeing what closers have garnered on the trade market, for what at this point is at best an incremental upgrade. How is Frazier at 3B an incremental upgrade? WAR wise, it's one of the biggest one player positional upgrades in baseball? I liked Montas myself, and still think he could be a starter. A lot of people look at his innings and say he is a ways away, which he could be. One thing they didn't look at were his pitch counts. They were numbers guys pitching 6 or 7 innings a start get, so theoretically, if he could learn to limit his pitches a bit, he could jump up drastically in innings pitched without the normal extra wear and tear. Alexei was negative WAR last year, so improvement shouldn't be that difficult.

10 years ago also was the peak attendance of the franchise. The thing is, they drew a lot more last year than any year before Reinsdorf owned the team.

QUOTE (Baron @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 03:05 PM) I've already told them I'll sign up for my season ticket package again this year if they sign Cespedes. I will absolutely fly from Texas to see them play. Just get it done. You're the man.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 02:59 PM) Wall Street Journal had a story today on the "15 Pro Franchises Running Out Of Fans..." The Sox came in 5th from the top (which in this case is the worst). Here is what they had to say numbers-wise: 5. Chicago White Sox > Sport: Baseball > 10 year attendance decline: 24.1% > Avg. home game attendance: 21,947 > Avg. capacity filled: 54.0% The only baseball franchises ranked worse than the Sox were the Indians (4) and Phillies (2) So you've got the Sox among the biggest decline in fan attendance over the last decade coupled with both Fan Graphs and ESPN.com stating they were the worst watched franchise in MLB ratings-wise. This is a franchise in major trouble. Mark OK. What is the estimated value of the franchise? I wish I could be in that much trouble.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 02:26 PM) 670 The Score ‏@670TheScore 7m7 minutes ago White Sox among final teams in Yoenis Cespedes sweepstakes -- @MLBBruceLevine with details: http://cbsloc.al/1OE7pfe This could be true, or it could be the White Sox feeding Levine with being a "finalist" so when he signs with another team, they tried. I have been on record the half assed approach doesn't work. The we will see where we are at around the deadline and act accordingly. That is conceding games. I never would have dreamed in October they would sign Upton or Gordon or Cespedes, but with all the chatter, if they strike out, I'll be disappointed, but if they get one of the next tier guys, and maybe some additional help, they still will upgrade their team immensely. I hate to agree with Caulfield on anything, but if the did get Desmond and Jackson, on paper, they would have a pretty nice line up.

That Dan Hayes stuff yesterday was odd. And if people really thing the White Sox will sign Cespedes if they call 500 people and 450 say they will buy tickets if they do....

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 01:59 PM) When Cespedes signs his contract it will be a terrible contract. The White Sox are not getting him on the cheap or for some OMG what a steal type deal. If that deal is on the table other teams will get involved as he has some value at that point and everyone can use value. My issue is that the White Sox have some great bargains in Abreu, Quintana and Sale. As this season looks right now the great contracts will be wasted for another year. One bad contract will not kill them but they once again seem to be tentative in pulling the trigger. Does Cespedas add the wins needed... potentially, who knows, but you don't win awards for having the best contracts in baseball. Fowler, Jackson, Pearce all add some value but at this time the White Sox are looking to waste another year of the cost controlled players they so cherish. They either take on a bad contract or remain where they are and watch the circus that is Avi Garcia mindlessly running around the outfield and on the bases. They chose not to rebuild so at some point this year or next they need to sign some talent. The cost of winning keeps going. There definitely will be people on this board and off who say Cespedes is a must, who, if Cespedes does become a White Sox will eventually complain about the contract. It's not my money, spend, spend, spend. Of the big 3, Cespedes was my 3rd choice, definitely coming off an outlier year during a contract. Supposedly Beane didn't like him as a player, Boston was happy to get rid of him. He basically carried the Mets to the WS but they only want him back at a cheap rate. He would be an upgrade, and who knows, my handle was known as trouble and a malcontent when he came to the White Sox, maybe he gets with Abreu and that keeps him motivated. He is the best out there now, but if they don't get him and get Fowler or Jackson instead, they still should be an improved team. Any kind of bounce back from LaRoche and they really could be cooking with gas.

QUOTE (SoCalSox @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 01:57 PM) Something weird is up, IMO. The Sox have been cold calling people (not just fans) yesterday & today asking them if they plan to attend Sox games this year. I could be wrong but that doesn't seem like a normal thing to do. MLB Network keeps bringing up the Sox name when talking about Cespedes & today, Nightengale reported in his journal thing that the Sox had been in on Upton before he signed with the Tigers. Most teams are throwing low year offers at this point. At some point soon, a team may offer 4-5 years & he'll probably take it. They have done this for years.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 01:50 PM) Well, I disagree that they have done a good job. They have won 63, 72 and 75 games in 3 years. With big upgrades at 3b and possibly at 2b, and possible downgrade at rotation, we are looking at 78-79 wins. In 2 years, when all of these contracts expire, we have to hope that all: Tim Anderson Trey M Are in the big leagues and high level producers immediately while we win a lottery ticket with : Jacob May Adam Engel Courtney Hawkins Maybe Adolfo will be a beast and be close to majors in 2 years. Otherwise you are looking at another round of gauge and plug with FA/trades on the minor league front. In four years, the core of Sale/Q/Abreu/Eaton basically falls apart. In two years you are expecting all of our minor league work to pan out. That is doubtful. The best contribution we may see is if Sale/Q/Rodon find themselves supplemented by budding superstars Adams/Fullmer/Danish for one last run. This isn't a "well what's the point of even playing the games!" point. Its just if you really valued having a winner with your current core, and you do not want to give up future competitiveness, then paying the large sum for a player like cespedes is necessary. Otherwise, you will hit a ceiling from the teams that kill us in player development. Shark led the league in runs given up and hits allowed. Johnson is going to have to be pretty bad to be a downgrade. It could happen, but Shark, despite his WAR figure, was awful last year, and a decent portion of the defense they say killed him, was his defense. He was a terrible fielding pitcher last year. One of the worst. As for all the prospects have to be good, c'mon man. There will be other players acquired. There is a total turnover of position players between now and the deadline in 2013, and the Sox minor leaguers hitters haven't raided the roster yet guys like Abreu and Eaton and Frazier are around. That can continue. A lot of money coming off next year, and if you are willing to pick up money, players in trades don't cost as much as usual. It would make things easier if some of the prospects actually became ballplayers, but it's not an absolute they have to or else.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 01:02 PM) What isn't said in reply is how having Lawrie and Frazier walk in 2 years helps the White Sox "build a team". Through specifically the Frazier move the White sox said bluntly they have a 2 year window before a major offensive piece hits FA. They need to act like that. If they weren't prepared to act like that, then they managed to make their job of "building a team" much more difficult. Isn't one of the White Sox better prospects a 3B who should be ready in a couple of years?

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 12:53 PM) The White Sox are trying to build a team, not build a team around Cespedes. As ive said a few times in this thread already, Cespedes and his demands were not realistic for the Sox in the first place so i never counted on the Sox signing him. Sure i hoped like a few others but never did see a fit. The Sox needed upgrades at 3B and 2B so they went out and traded for the best of what was available. You know as well as the rest of us that the 3B market had little to choose from. Should the Sox have signed Freese instead? Or signed an old veteran like Rollins for SS/2B? Should the Sox have not made those upgrades and rolled with Saladino at 3B, Alexei at SS and Sanchez at 2B? That recipe didn't work in '15 so the Sox had to make changes from what was available on the market and I think they did pretty damn good in their upgrades at 3B/2B. Too many fans are mentally looking at the trades of Lawrie and Frazier being based around the assumption that the Sox would or even could sign Cespedes, a player that has said since last September he was seeking 6/150. Bad assumption... I guess what I don't understand is the logic that another team signing a player that was a longshot from the get go to be a White Sox totally ends the White Sox pursuit of upgrades. It's really bizarre.

QUOTE (LDF @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 11:13 AM) and you have a point, yr 15, was not too good, maybe b/c of injury.... who knows, but he has been really good. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/linceti01.shtml Neither was 2014,2013 or 2012. Last time he was good, Ozzie was managing the White Sox, Buerhle and Paulie were still good, and Adam Dunn was historically bad.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 11:15 AM) His hair. He got a haircut.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 11:03 AM) Add Fister and Lincecum to that package and I'd be ok with it. But if the Sox got both Jackson and Pearce, what would happen to Shuck? What about Avi? What is the fascination with Lincecum? He has been horrible for 4 years in a big park in the NL, and he is coming off surgery.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 09:20 AM) The Royals have two guys averaging $18 million and $20 million now. More than a decade ago, 5 years and $55 million for Gil Meche was almost unconscionable. Who is averaging $18 million and who is averaging $20 million? Paul Splittorff, Amos Otis, Willie Wilson. Daryl Porter.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 18, 2016 -> 10:27 PM) Because the prosepects weren't really good. If they traded possible impact players it would be different. The team is better than it was last year without sacrificing the future. I dont think tge sox fanbase as a group would tolerate a true re-build. I would and some would but I'm not sure the team could survive it. It is amazing how worthwhile a prospect Micah has become since he was gone

QUOTE (SoCalSox @ Jan 18, 2016 -> 10:21 PM) Pick a lane? How does trading away prospects for 2 players with 2 years of control & standing pat after that make any sort of sense? You either go for it or you rebuild. You don't half ass things & come in at or under .500 each year. Why does the Tigers signing Upton end the offseason for the White Sox? We have known the White Sox weren't going to sign Upton for a while?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 18, 2016 -> 10:17 PM) http://www.hardballtimes.com/the-net-value-of-draft-picks/ Another reason following up the loss of Cespedes/Upton with the signing of Fowler would be foolish... Where exactly is that Samardzija compensation pick as of today, btw? It went down one to 28.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 18, 2016 -> 10:05 PM) Given a choice as owner for the White Sox starting now, who do you take? Ilitch or Reinsdorf? I think ill itch will be gone soon, and there are going to be problems in Detroit, besides no World Series wins, so under your criteria, the Tigers haven't had any exciting seasons under his ownership.