Dick Allen

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 29, 2015 -> 02:51 PM) This is why college coaches like Hoiberg who are beloved should "just say no" to the NBA unless all they care about (and this is possible) is making a few million more per annum. Smith wrote: "It’s why the shelf life of the NBA coach isn’t long; in his fifth season, Thibodeau ranked fourth senior NBA coach with his team. The other three all had won titles." Hoiberg won't last more than 2-3 years with Chicago unless the Bulls win it all which they probably won't. I agree. He apparently loves the NBA. So good for him. He could be the king not just the Mayor of Ames and have more money than he would ever need for the rest of his life if he stayed. Seems like a no brainer to me, but apparently he doesn't feel the same.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 29, 2015 -> 02:37 PM) What you are saying makes no sense. One time you are saying that there is no chain of command. But when the general manager goes to the coach, who works for him, and tells him to do something, he is meddling? Same with the White Sox. Rick Hahn does the leg work. Final approval for moves goes through the chain of command into Kenny and then finally, and if necessary, Jerry. Certain guys are obviously responsible for certain things. Do you honestly think that Jerry or Kenny are the ones making out line ups? But, when there is a bigger problem with the performance, such as with the Bulls and Thibs playing guys too many minutes, then the chain of command kicks in and tells him to knock if off. I am not sure where you have worked in the past that you have full autonomy over everything, but that is pretty much the textbook definition of chain of command. But coaching and GMing are two different things. We all understand either having a boss or being a boss, but must of us with a boss would get very frustrated if that boss got too involved in doing a job you are quite good at. I would say Thibs winning coach of the year would qualifying him as at least having some sort of idea how to coach an NBA team. When the boss becomes too intrusive and/or doesn't allow the employee any of their own thoughts or ways, in any line of work, it probably is going to end soon. Just because someone is a boss doesn't mean for optimal performance, they don't have boundaries as well. We don't know the actual interaction between Thibs and GarPax. Face it Pax going after VDN is grounds for dismissal. Just ask Kendall Gill. The Bulls have had the regular press release, JR's press release, a press conference, and are leaking things like the players don't like Thibs. They are doing precisely what they said cannot be done if an organization is to be successful.

There should be free conversation and those conversations should remain private. Thibs must have leaked this: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...partner=ya5nbcs

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 29, 2015 -> 01:50 PM) How do you guys have so much insight into how well the White Sox internal chain of command works? Are you all ex-employees or something? The White Sox are a limited partnership. JR is the only general partner. He is large and in charge. I'm sure he listens to his partners, but ultimately his decision is what happens.

If someone said before his start he would give you 6 innings and the Sox would be down 2 when he left, I would have taken it. His overall numbers were pretty brutal, but he did keep the team in the game, and it was his debut, and he's not exactly a top 50 prospect. There is something to build on.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 29, 2015 -> 01:28 PM) Nik should. He struggled at times this year due to being winded, etc, but he should be a good 3 point shooter. Brooks is as well (not sure if he will be back). I forgot about Mirotic. He and McBuckets were working out at the gym I go to before the draft last year, doing drills. McBuckets did one were he was running around cones, acting like he was working off of screens, and they would pass him the ball at the 3 point line and he hit about 20 in a row at one point. Last season was a disaster for him, but I think he has some talent. I didn't see Mirotic until I was leaving in an elevator and I happened to have a black thermal shirt on with a Bulls emblem. I noticed this guy with Real Madrid shorts, but didn't recognize him because of the beard. I've always question NBA and college player listed heights because I am a shade under 6'6" and I stood next to guys listed 6'8" and have been looking them straight in the eye, but Niko is legitimately very tall. He said goodbye to me in the elevator. Probably because of my shirt.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ May 29, 2015 -> 01:16 PM) Why do you keep bringing up how the Cubs do things? We're talking about the White Sox and how whatever the hell they are doing on the South Side has led to one of the worst 30 year stretches in club history outside of 2005 when almost everything broke their way. Whatever they are doing isn't working. Try something new. You wrote in glowing terms about the job Rick Hahn did last offseason. Are you stepping back from those now?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 29, 2015 -> 01:10 PM) Again, no GM is "100% on his own". Hell even Jerry himself has to answer to the Board of Directors. The way this partnership is drawn up, JR has all the power. He listens to the BOD, but he doesn't have to. He has carte blanche to do whatever he pleases. And if he dies, he has it set up to where that power goes to his executor.

QUOTE (bmags @ May 29, 2015 -> 01:11 PM) It's amazing that Thibs would leak things to the media. The bulls org certainly didn't try that at all. Nor would they ever openly shop the coach and flaunt his replacement. What a terrible person he is to betray them. They have had great working relationships with 4 previous coaches, why couldn't he make it work? It's funny some people actually buy that. The one thing about Van Gundy's comments that one game was what he said was absolutely true. He probably didn't need to bring up Tyrus Thomas/LeMarcus Aldridge.

It will be interesting to see how efficient an offense based on launching 3s is with DRose "feeling it". Really, how many guys on the Bulls roster other than perhaps McBuckets, and Dunleavy if he is even back, do you really think can hit 3s with much consistency?

The Bulls did fire Doug Collins and that turned out OK, but the rosters are different. I think if the Bulls were a little classier about the dismissal we all knew was happening months ago, it wouldn't bother me so much. Even if they are 100% sure Thibs was feeding stuff to Van Gundy, it isn't hard to take the high road, and they chose the low road.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 29, 2015 -> 12:24 PM) Pretty much everyone has a boss. When your boss asks you to do something you either acknowledge it or start looking for a new job. You definitely don't go try to publicly embarrass your bosses in as public of a matter as possible. Even taking into account the disaster that the front office of the Bulls has been at times, Thibs got what he earned. That is the popular opinion. The problem is we will never hear the cross examination. I think the slant towards Thibs deserved what he got, including the unnecessary jabs from JR, would be at least more neutral.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 29, 2015 -> 12:22 PM) I think the problem is the Bulls had one of the best front offices in the league at collecting talent and one of the best coaching staffs in the league as well. Blowing both of those up would be the bigger mistake as it would leave you starting 100% from scratch. Clearly this got bad enough that JR, who was one of Tom's staunches advocates, even got off the bandwagon and decided it was time. It seems like the reality was JR would have allowed the issues to continue to go together if things were kept internally better and probably more importantly if the players didn't start to grow weary of Tom. The player push back is a new thing that has come out in recent days. Considering Thibs was a known goner, I'm going to assume that is just players trying to placate the people who will still be here knowing that Thibs was out anyway. Cowley had an article the other day and he got from a player the exit interview was filled with stuff slamming Thibs. I will agree GarPax/ Thibs probably wasn't going to work anymore, but unless Pau can find another fountain of youth, and all these guys who get hurt every season stop getting hurt, the Mayor is going to bow out of the playoffs in the first or second round. I also think the Mayor to the Bulls is a done deal. I think they are leaking it is not to try to make it appear like this just came up, and everything everyone has heard the last 4 or 5 months is just a coincidence that it came true.

QUOTE (scs787 @ May 29, 2015 -> 12:18 PM) I've always, ALWAYS, heard it's important for the GM and coach to have a good relationship. Probably true, but how many times when that relationship goes sour, is it the coach that gets the boot? The Bulls won plenty when Phil and Krause didn't have a relationship. The roster will trump that. There was an article out today that said GarPax didn't like the idea of Thibs getting all the credit he was getting, and that is what ruined the relationship. If that's the case, and we will probably never know, perhaps the wrong party was asked to clean out their desks.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 29, 2015 -> 12:17 PM) Some of that is just having a deeper roster this year that wasn't as injury-depleted and refusing to use it. I can't be mad when Hinrich and Nate Robinson have to split time at PG because Rose is out. I can be more annoyed with Hinrich getting 20 minutes when there are other PG and Snell on the bench who have been moved out of the rotation. I can be annoyed when Mirotic starts off the playoffs completely out of the rotation for some reason we still can't explain. A GM shouldn't fire a coach for using the players he provided. Maybe it was a blessing but the Bulls struck out on Carmelo. They struck out on LeBron. They have basically struck out on every max contract free agent they went after. They got Pau. They also got Boozer. Also Mirotic was not 100% physically. He was really banged up.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ May 29, 2015 -> 12:08 PM) Don't the GM and president meddle by nature...? They build the roster. We've seen the opposite. When coaches get to meddle in GM affairs like Ozzie getting Kotsay over Thome. Supposedly Thibs was the biggest supporter of drafting McDermott as well. Coaches should coach. GMs should GM. That's how I see it. The Bulls PR department is doing a good job making Thibs the bad guy here, but if he was so horrible and played guys too much, why did he last 5 seasons? Why did he get a very lucrative contract extension which still has 2 years to go? You yourself are using a quote from a writer that stated he never got any info from Thibs as proof Thibs gave him info. Isn't it at least slightly possible the Van Gundy comments weren't coming from Thibs? He was speaking from common knowledge. We all knew the stories. The fact is GarPax hasn't yet shown they are any better at their jobs than the guys they fired. I hope someone with the Bulls realizes that.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ May 29, 2015 -> 12:05 PM) @cyclonefanatic: SOURCE: Fred Hoiberg to the Chicago #Bulls is not a “done deal.” Details here. #Cyclones http://t.co/CEvA4jUJft I still think if he has his pick of NBA jobs, picking the Bulls job is kind of crazy. One report I did read was that if the Mayor said no, Gentry would be the second choice, if he went somewhere else, Adrian Griffin would be the new head coach.

I doubt there are many coaches or managers that appreciate meddling from the GM and president of the team. If Hoiberg is going to be a yes man, I hope the Bulls higher ups have GarPax on notice that if the results are the same, it isn't the coach.

Van Gundy chimes in. He does make some good points: http://nypost.com/2015/05/28/jeff-van-gund...vicious-manner/

QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 29, 2015 -> 10:50 AM) Pro sports are all very similar, retreads are hired because they have experience, even if their experience is mediocre. Skiles does have a track record of making bad teams decent, but eventually you will fire him with at least a couple of million on his contract.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 29, 2015 -> 10:15 AM) Everyone is taking the statements as going after Thibs, but to me it all just screamed justification. All season long people have been reporting that Thibs would be fired regardless of how many games they won and that doing so would be a terribly dumb move. I think the Bulls had to give a reason for the firing, otherwise they wouldn't get their say in for the record. I don't see any personal digs, I see a lot of truth - Thibs is a stubborn SOB and when management and the players want something else, and the coach refuses to budge, that's not a "team" mentality/culture. Throw in a lot of the little disagreements and fights that a lot of employees/employers have, and that was enough for him to get fired. This isn't the first time the Bulls have just plain lied. Back when Phil left, Krause told him the year before if he went 82-0 he wouldn't be back. Yet during the lockout they made it seem like they wanted him back, even though Floyd, who everyone knew was going to be the next coach for a year, had been hired in some other capacity. Apparently they play the public for fools, but the good news is if they don't win a title next season, they will have to come up with a different excuse. It will be interesting to see what that is.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 29, 2015 -> 09:50 AM) For a year an a half of a pitcher pitching much better. We're selling a worse version for just a couple months. And everyone in the world thought that was an overpay in the first place. I don't think everyone in the world thought it was an overpay, and reality is starting to set in for Semien. He obviously still has good offensive numbers, but he has dropped about 70 points off his OPS the last couple of weeks, and now up to 18 errors. If he had 18 errors for the White Sox, he would be getting skewered here.

What is funny is someone actually thinks the Bulls aren't loyal to their players, yet the President is John Paxson. The special assistant is Scottie Pippen. Wasn't Gar Forman Tim Floyd's assistant coach? Many ex Bulls have been assistant coaches and Bill Cartwright even was the head coach. And if Fred Hoiberg is hired...........former Bull. Of course this type of loyalty is only frowned upon to a point. The people who complain the loudest about it many times are the same ones who think Frank Thomas should be the White Sox hitting coach.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 29, 2015 -> 08:54 AM) The opposite. The White Sox are all good "company men" who don't ever rock the boat...or question the longstanding way of doing things. I'd take a dysfunctional frontt office of ten overachievers/tireless workers who don't always get along with co-workers and push their players to their limits than...well, whatever we have now. Sort of like a country club atmosphere. If the Bulls made the same mistakes the White Sox make on a constant basis...would Thibs passively sit there and let it go? It's not a country club. Robin rips on players just not for you to watch: Praised by the front office and players alike for his balanced demeanor, Ventura — who on Friday signed a multi-year contract extension — has been questioned several times by fans for those same qualities. They want to see Ventura air players out in the dugout and criticize them publicly for their poor play. Some assume that just because he doesn’t show his emotions outwardly that equates to a lack of passion for the job. “You get that,” Ventura said. “Just because you don’t do it so they can get the satisfaction of seeing me jump somebody doesn’t mean it (doesn’t) happen. But everybody has an opinion, everybody has a preference and when you get a forum like this you get all of that.” [ Part of the reason Ventura is popular with players is because of the way he handles them. Veteran first baseman Paul Konerko said Friday that Ventura reads and handles his players well. Ventura also prefers to handle his role as a taskmaster behind closed doors. “That’s just the way I do it,” Ventura said. “I’d rather bring them in and do it inside the clubhouse. I played for managers that did it both ways and I think it’s more of an effective approach to do it inside and not let people see it. … It doesn’t mean I don’t care or I’m not mad. You realize that you are on TV and it’s stuff you can’t take back.” While Hahn has no concerns about being criticized, he didn’t tolerate questions about his manager’s passion and rushed to Ventura’s defense. “I didn’t think it was Robin’s place to have to explain how passionate he is,” Hahn said. “Those of us who are around him and see what he does on a daily basis and the amount of energy and time he puts in have the benefit of seeing that passion behind closed doors. It was important for me as one of those people to make that clear. … Although it’s not satisfying perhaps from a fan standpoint, we want that handled behind closed doors. It’s more effective when you have that conversation one on one with a player as opposed to airing it out in public.”

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ May 29, 2015 -> 08:21 AM) Meh. What Reinsdorf said is true though. People want transparency from owners but then don't like it when they get it. Of course the decision wasn't made when they said it was. What are they supposed to say? We were going to fire Tom no matter what? This has been in motion for the last year and a half. Anyone that was blindsided by this hasn't been paying attention. I'm not saying you, Dick, I just mean in general. Lots of stunned people yesterday and it doesn't really make any sense. Gar said the reports they were trying to get something for Thibs was total BS and that they made the decision to fire him either yesterday or Wednesday. That just is a lie, and like in court, how are you supposed to believe anything else he says? JR's response was damning, and I think unnecessary. Even if they absolutely hate Thibs, keep it classy. As far as I can tell, GarPax haven't exactly accomplished much as a duo. The fact is, the talent was short. Losing to LeBron and the Heat wasn't embarrassing and unexpected. Losing to LeBron this year with a hobbled Noah, a Rose that isn't the same as he was every night, isn't unexpected. They have every right to fire Thibs. But to try to drag him through the mud is proposterus. The fact is, they gave him, this horrible coach, an extension, and still owe him $9 million, so who really is the fool?