iamshack

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 12:36 AM) Classic old man skills? The only classic old man skills I know of at 38 are managing. Dont just tell me about all these great over 38 players, show some examples of how players of 38 trend upward statistically. Show that as players get older they dont tend to trend downward. Hell even use Frank Thomas, who was injured the 2 previous years and had a solid season for the A's at 38. He was a far better hitter career than Thome and his stats at 38 were well below his career average, but at least back up your argument some what. Well, I didn't phrase it formally, because I figured you would get the reference, but it has been pretty well proven that power and ability to judge the strike zone are the traits that hitters usually hold onto the longest. And don't misinterpret my argument. I'm not arguing that Thome would have a better season than he did last season. I'm just saying that even with a reasonable decline, he would have a much better season than any of Ozzie's planned alternatives would have in the best case scenario. Are you planning on addressing that point?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 11:57 PM) That's true. Good observation. I can see why Oz got tossed tonight though. That last called strike on Pods was so high compared to the belt high pitches the ump was calling balls a majority of the game. I'm glad he rung up Pods but that was high compared to the belt high pitches the guy was calling balls. Yeah, that was a bad strike he called on Podsednik. The last two home plate umpires have been terrible. I don't think guys complain much when the zone is consistent, no matter how big or small, but when it is inconsistent and no one has a clue what the guy is going to call a ball or strike, guys get frustrated. Additionally, the umpires these days think they need to control the game WAY too much.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 12:28 AM) If there is Pods hate on this board (not talking 2009 when he was actually good) then it's a correction to the excessive ballwashing and unrealistic expectations. I know this is ridiculous, but I mentioned this in the game thread and I'll mention it again here. There seems to be some irrational jealousy against guys on this team with hot wives

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 12:30 AM) unless KW thought the Sox were close enough as is to stay in contention, which by a miracle streak they are, and he liked his potential options for trade in mid-season better than anything out there at the time But he didn't. He even put Ozzie on the spot at Soxfest by bringing Thome back into the fold. I think he knew that he could add someone if needed during the season, which is why he ultimately let Ozzie have his way. But my guess is he had a pretty good idea that this current situation might present itself and we could get burned pretty badly.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 12:18 AM) Now I make this argument just to make it, but I do agree that his OBP alone is worth 2m, but his Aug/Sept last year were bad and that's not really a career trend for him... career: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dunnad01.shtml Aug OPS 1.008 and Sept .874 2009: Aug .798 (2nd most PA he had in a month all season) and Sept in only 17 PAs in a pinch hit role .471 And the Sox saw him everyday until he went to the LAD, Herm might have been part of the discussion as well in deciding not to bring him back. And this is probably a result of his overuse. He probably is not physically able to get 500 PAs anymore and be effective. But I would certainly take 350-400 PAs for $2M!

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 12:22 AM) I would like to point out that I didn't want Thome back either cause I wanted more speed/versatility as well which I agreed with Badge on. The only reason I wanted Thome back (I believe it was around February) was KW still didn't get another bat which most of us thought he would do. When the Damon rumors hit, I don't think anyone here was even talking about Thome cause we actually had a shot (or thought we had a shot) of signing Damon. There were only some posters here that wanted Thome back from the START. Some jumped in around December, some around January, etc.. I don't think anyone is arguing that he was the ideal target this offseason. I was willing to let him walk as well. I think it was reasonable to assume he would decline a bit more, and I still think there is a chance that he may. But when it became apparent that there was no other option even in the stratosphere (until Damon), the decision to bring back Thome was so incredibly obvious that the Twins decided to sign him when they had a much lesser need for him than we did.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 12:17 AM) Its not a fluke? How many other players over the age of 38 have put up numbers better stats when they were 38, than their previous 3 years? That is what we call a fluke. Anyways, its the past, I dont feel like arguing over something that nothing can be done about. Had the Sox signed Thome and he hit for nothing and wasted a roster space, most people would be saying why did we bring back an over age veteran who can only walk or hit a hr. Thome's August obp was .298 last year. His September obp was 235. His April obp last year was .317 That is 3 months of obp around .300. So maybe over the entirety of last season he had a obp of 366, but for 3 months he was pretty brutal and there was nothing to suggest this year wouldnt be the same. Hes doing great, good for him, but there was no promise of this. And every statistical trend of last year suggested that he was just a shell of his former self. /shrugs So now you just start assuming that at the age of 38 a player will completely fall off the table statistically? Thome has the classic "old man" skills, which are hitting for power and a great batters eye. Obviously the latter is dependent on the former, but until you actually see enough data to suggest the guy can no longer do it, it's irresponsible to insist that he won't simply because of age. He certainly is a bit inconsistent. And he is aging, and he does need a lot more preparation to keep himself in shape. And he will be injured more because of tweaks and the like. But you're ignoring the fact that his skills were still incredibly undervalued by every statistical measure and there was no plan to replace him with a better statistical option. Had they chose to pass on him because they were going to bring in a similar player, a younger player with his type of ceiling statistically, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 12:12 AM) See that is the thing too badge. I agree with you. But I've long said I don't think anyone would had complained if it was Kubel and Cuddyer platooning at DH for us than Kotsay/Jones. I think fathom and/or Kalapse mentioned Branyan and Gomes. I like the speed/versatility at the DH spot than most.. but I would also like it if my hitter had a good OBP with a good OPS and average you know... a good history prior. The issue was not the striking out and lack of speed so much as it was we had multiple hitters underperforming last year. The combination of Dye, Q, PK, and Thome struggling at times, sometimes all at once, was why people got frustrated with it. But if these players hit to their capabilities, it is not really an issue. And considering that you knew Dye would be let go, and Thome would be used in less-situations, I still don't see this as an excuse. You have to figure without PK and Q hitting this year, you're not going to win anything anyways. So there is nothing lost but $2M to Thome if you bring him back and things don't work out because the lineup is too old and crotchety.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 12:06 AM) Its great that Thome is doing well, I didnt expect and I dont think it was so obvious that he was going to get back to his old form. You can say the Sox had a space, but so far no one has suggested who would play 1b when Konerko needs rest? Furthermore, if other players were dinged up etc and needed some rest and to play DH, it would have left the White Sox bench woefully thin. In retrospect its easy to say what if, but I just hate looking back and arguing about what should have been done. Its over, decisions were made, all the Sox can do is try and make the best of the future going forward. Mark Teahan and Andruw Jones both can play 1b. That's who Kal mentioned hours ago.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 11:55 PM) If everyone thought Thome was good, then why is he playing for the Twins at a really low salary, instead of starting for another team? Its not like teams were salivating over Thome and only the White Sox (and I) thought Thome had lost it. It just is really easy after the fact to say how smart every one was about Thome. I just saw nothing last year to expect this, but hey no one is right all the time. Maybe I just got tired of the slow White Sox line up, with the strike out or home run mentality. Maybe I just wanted some change and felt that even if Thome may be the better hitter, he just brought nothing else and if he wasnt hitting hes a waste of space. Well see how it all plays out at the end of the season, but Thome had some good months last year, as well as some horrible ones. Because the market in baseball is ridiculously undervaluing veteran talent right now. It's an incredible over-correction or over-reaction to the push towards cost-certainty with the young players. Instead, they're incredibly undervaluing performance certainty right now. Here is a guy who reached base at a .372 clip last season. That eye of his ALONE is worth $2M, and that is not even bringing into the equation his ability to slug at a .500 or above clip. Part of the reason also has to do with the fact that he does not bring much flexibility, as he is a DH. That limits him to 14 teams right off the bat (unless an NL team wants him purely in a pinch-hitting role). Out of those 14 teams, probably 10 already had DHs. Which left about 4 teams for Jimmy to play for. Us, Minny, Detroit, and maybe Baltimore or something. Needless to say, the man can still play, was willing to play at a discount, and yet, we ignored the reams and reams of data on this guy and let Ozzie have his way. Not because we thought Ozzie was right from an evaluation standpoint, but because Ozzie wanted his silly roster flexibility. Well, his flexibility has resulted in us getting Mark Kotsay in the DH spot 5 games a week. And this is not some "fluke" that is happening right now. Jimmy has done this for the last 15 years! It's not hindsight, it's not second guessing, it's what the statistics have been saying for basically his entire career. Why is that saying "after the fact" that the guy can still do it when he never gave us any statistically significant reason to doubt him?

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 10:36 PM) J.J. Putz and his arm/velocity is back. Incredible to see. Indeed, although he was not particularly sharp this evening.

QUOTE (goblue5699 @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 11:46 PM) I think it's pretty unfair to criticize the Mitchell pick. I agree. The guy was looking like a freak this spring until his injury.

Should happen tomorrow!

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 10:44 PM) Yea. Randy Williams and it isn't even close for me. Teahen though gets ripped constantly (even when he doesn't play) and I am still stunned by it. Reminds me of the Swisher hate that I'll never understand. (not talking defense, which I can understand) Pierre is my whipping boy, and I rip him alot (and would still rip him) but now I can't because I said I wouldn't till the ASB after he broke up Tilly's no hitter. (that one thread about a new lead-off hitter is killing me to not post in BTW.. ) Well, I kind of understand "whipping boy" to mean a guy that gets an unnecessary amount of criticism for some hard to articulate reason. Kind of how I say Kotsay gets a disproportionate amount of s*** for what he actually is responsible for. And if that is the case, I have to say Mark Kotsay. The guy didn't campaign to get this many at bats. He didn't freaking promise that he would perform to some ridiculous level. He doesn't brag about his talents like Andruw. He is a great clubhouse guy. He is a professional. He does anything we ask him to do. So he is old and he sort of sucks. It's not his fault his manager keeps penciling him in the damn lineup.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 10:33 PM) Ozzie, Sox, does it really matter who was the driving force behind the decision? The end result is that the Sox management agreed with Ozzie's assessment at the end of the day. Jerry and Kenny could have signed Thome and forced Ozzie to play him. Ozzie may have been the most vocal, but if his argument won, it means that the others agreed with him at the end of the day. If anyone thought Thome would put up a consistent .864 he probably would have been back. I just think Ozzie (who watched the guy every day) didnt think he had much left in the tank. You arent sitting a guy 5-6 days a week if hes performing. Its not like Kenny and Reinsdorf were saying "Oh hes going to be a 1.00+ ops player" and Ozzies response was "Well where can I find room for that in my line up." The argument was more likely: Kenny: Hey Thome may have a little juice left, he wants to come back cheap, lets do it. Ozzie: Im not so sure about that. He was pretty brutal at the end of last year and looked like his bat is slow. If you sign him and I have him on my bench I wont have as much flexibility. If Konerko goes down, who will play 1b? Thome cant field, Im not so sure hes even worth a spot if he is free. /end scene In retrospect Thome was much better than ANY of them thought. But that is like saying "The Cubs should have never picked Prior 2nd because he would bust." Its easy to predict the past. I highly doubt that is how it went down. And judging from what you have seen this year and what you know about Ozzie, I'm not sure how you can even argue that is how it went down. Ozzie said "I want to manufacture runs and I want roster flexibility." Kenny said ""But Ozzie, this guy is actually a good baseball player, unlike some of these other bums." Ozzie said "I have tried it your way for a few years now with these base cloggers. Let me try it my way." And Ozzie and Jerry ultimately relented. Jerry then said publicly "How can we hold the guy accountable if we don't give him the kind of roster he wants?" Maybe we will see more in "The Club," or whatever. But that is my guess of how it went down. And you can say this was unforseeable and that he was on a steep decline, but the guy has put up OPS's far in excess of what one would call a productive player in this league his entire career. You're basically saying he was predicted to fail without ever statistically failing over a significant number of healthy at bats. For $2M, you take the risk and go with what the numbers have been saying for the last 15 years. Not Ozzie Guillen's f***ing "hunch." I'm as big a supporter of OG and the FO as you will find around here, but I cannot defend that decision. It was incredibly, incredibly irresponsible for Kenny to allow Ozzie to convince him not to sign Thome.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 10:02 PM) Youre taking my arguments out of context. The money argument was for Kalapse and why the Sox did not get a suitable DH replacement. The argument for Thome was that the Sox thought he was done and didnt have roster space for a back up DH who cant play any position. (Edit) If you can find one post where I said the Sox didnt sign Thome for financial reasons, feel free. But ive said they didnt sign him because he looked horrible and didnt play any field positions, it wasnt about money. The reason the Sox didnt sign another DH (THAT IS OUTSIDE OF THOME FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CANT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND) is due to financial constraints. There is no "the Sox thought he was done" argument. Kenny and JR wanted him back. They tried and tried and tried to convince Ozzie. Ozzie claimed he would not play Thome enough and that he respected him too much to sit him on the bench 5 or 6 days a week. I don't believe they even gave Jim a chance to accept whether he would sit on the bench for 5 or 6 days a week. While you would like to separate the two decisions, 1) to not sign Jim Thome and 2) to not replace him with a viable option because they did not have the resources, you simply cannot. It is unconscionable to pass on an .864 OPS player for $2 million and then not replace him because you have no resources. You simply cannot point to anything statistically significant in Jim's numbers last year to justify that decision.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 10:58 PM) I'm the biggest J. Gomes fan around. I specifically remember talking about this platoon in that jimh thread. Oh alright...I avoided that entire fiasco because I had no clue who he was. I do recall you talking about Gomes about 3 weeks ago.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 10:56 PM) Its my opinion that the Sox were some what in a money bind last season after getting Rios/Peavy and completely flopping on the field. Worried about bad attendance to start this season (which happened), the White Sox were going on the cheap with free agents, feeling that they added Rios/Peavy. Id love if the Sox had unlimited resources, but I just think they were at the top of what they could spend. The real mistake was adding Pierre and his salary even if it is only 3mil/5mil the next 2 seasons. Its obvious that they wanted to change the dynamic of the team from a slow plodding one dimensional offense, to something else. Whether or not that something else is good, who knows. But I was honestly tired of seeing slow guys stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fences every at bat. Thome would have signed for less money, before some of these other acquisitions. That is no excuse.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 10:46 PM) I was all for a Branyan/Gomes platoon I do not recall that.

I guess I was so certain we would sign Thome i never really even looked around at anyone else. It was such an incredibly simple decision to make...

Thanks Pratt. Love the soccer reference.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 10:25 PM) ChuckGarfien Adam Dunn on trade talk, "I hate this." And he doesn't want to be full-time DH. "One hundred percent. There's no doubt about that." Great...glad he is open to coming here...

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 10:20 PM) It's 6 IP and 3 ER or less. I was speaking rhetorically, they both pitched quite poorly the past few days but still managed to hold the opponent to 3 ER while getting through 6 innings. They really had no business pulling that off based on the way they were throwing the ball. The retarded thing is you can go 6 scoreless, then give up 4 in the 7th, and that doesn't count...

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 09:18 PM) http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/qSm2w Wow, Jackie Tavener goes 5-5 with three triples in a game in 1925 and yet doesn't score a run. His team's offense must have been very similar to ours...

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 09:17 PM) I believe 6 IP, 4 ER or less is considered a quality start. 3 er