iamshack

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 12, 2009 -> 11:48 PM) Look at the numbers I suggested. Those are NOT numbers you give to player who you expect to put up 2009-type seasons. Those are numbers you give to a player that you expect to well exceed his 2009 performance. I'm suggesting the Sox give him a far better deal than they offered the first time, which is what Floyd signed. I'm suggesting that the Sox express confidence in Quentin and offer to buy out his arb years at a reasonable price, ***NOT*** try to rip him off. I am saying that the Sox should act as if 2009 was the aberration, not 2008. Oh, ok, I was confused about that part. I was not sure if you were talking about Quentin there still or had switched to Danks. When I mentioned how it might be tough to offer Danksy a different extension than Floyd now, I did so because I think Floyd would think he would be being penalized for trying to work with the organization a year earlier. So I thought maybe when you started making comparisons to the extension Floyd signed, maybe that you were referring to that. I'm not really sure why you are comparing a possible Quentin extension to what Floyd signed though...isn't that a bit of apples to oranges there?

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 12, 2009 -> 11:27 PM) We asked him to sign coming off of an MVP-type season last year and he said no. Don't you think he'd be likelier to sign after an injury-plagued season instead of an MVP-type one? And either way, I don't see why any of this is important. The thread is about whether or not we should attempt to sign Quentin to a deal that buys out his arb years. I believe we should try to do that. Whether or not Quentin will sign such a deal is irrelevant to the discussion because nobody here is Carlos Quentin. He'd still be signing for security BTW, that's the whole point of these deals. If Quentin re-injures his wrist in 2010 and plays 60 games then instead of being a non-tender candidate, he's got X amount of millions coming to him after 2010. It's not like a such a deal wouldn't be risky for the Sox. If the Sox offer something like $3.5M in 2010, $6.5M in 2011, $9M in 2012 ($3M buyout, last arb year), $13M in 2013 ($4M buyout) then the Sox would be guaranteeing him $13M over the next 3 years even if he never plays another baseball game again. If he's healthy, they'd be committing up to $32M to him over the next 4 years. That's a lot of money to turn down. The same Floyd deal probably isn't going to work, but it's still a deal that could give the Sox cost certainty and potentially save them some money during the final two arb years and the first FA year. No, I don't think he would be likelier to sign coming off an injury-plagued season. Why on earth would he? Why would you sign a long-term contract based on production that occurred while you were injured? The fact that he wouldn't sign last year shows that he believes in his abilities and that the arbitration system will compensate him moreso than whatever deal the Sox offerred him to buy out his arbitration years. The fact that he turned that extension down only makes it more likely that he will not be willing to sign a deal now, not less likely. As for the security being the point of these deals, I agree with you. But there is a huge distinction between signing a deal based on production that occurred when one was healthy and one based on production that occurred when one was injured. What Longoria and Braun did was take the guaranteed money offerred them in case they were struck by injury or suddenly lost their ability to perform at a high level. However, that guaranteed money was still substantial because it still recognized their ability to perform at a high level, it just guaranteed the money (and a lesser amount, at that), than what they might earn were they to continue to stay healthy and perform at such a level. What you're asking Carlos to do is to sign a contract based upon a level of performance that he no doubt believes he is capable of far exceeding. Not one that just provides the consideration of guaranteeing the money, but one that is based on his performance while he was injured. There is a huge distinction there. As for the relevance of whether he might sign such an extension, to claim that we should not discuss whether he would accept such an extension because we are not Carlos Quentin is foolish. None of us are Kenny Williams or Rick Hahn either (at least not that I am aware of), and yet we discuss the concept of whether to offer such an extension to Carlos. By your logic, it is irrelevent to discuss such an idea because none of us has the ability to offer said extension in the first place.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Oct 12, 2009 -> 11:08 PM) I'd bait him on it.. lowball him, but put a s*** ton of incentives on the deal, since he's basically an injury prone player. Just put yourself in the position of his agent though...after the year he came off of in 08', you have to tell him to wait at least one more year before signing anything that isn't quite lucrative for him.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 12, 2009 -> 10:52 PM) We won't know if Quentin will sign unless we offer him something. So, offer a package and hope he signs because that makes the most sense for us. If Quentin doesn't sign then he doesn't sign, but there's no reason to not pursue it. No very good player should want to sign any of these deals because of the amount the player could end up forfeiting, but the security aspect can be pretty important, and sometimes they work out extremely well for the players. For example, our former CF prospect Chris Young is going to get millions upon millions above what his production thus far would be worth. Longoria OTOH is probably going to get screwed. You never know though and anything can happen. I fully understand the concept of signing to get some security and possibly missing out on some dollars. But there is a difference between that and signing a deal when you just came off a year in which you had turf toe all season. You're not asking him to sign early for some financial security. You're asking him to sign when his value is extremely low because of injury.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 12, 2009 -> 10:38 PM) And also, let's get this s*** done with Beckham too if we can. Lock that guy up NOW. Ditto with Danks. Why would Q sign now? Unless he is entirely not confident that he will ever stay healthy, then he will just wait. Beckham, on the other hand, I would like to see him signed to a Longoria-esque sort of deal. I posted a thread about this several months ago. Danks declined the same deal we gave to Gavin, so I have a feeling he's not going to want to sign now either. Plus, you run the risk of alienating Floyd a bit if you go and offer Danks something bigger than what you gave him...

QUOTE (son of a rude @ Oct 12, 2009 -> 01:26 AM) He gets me so excited. I am one of the few on the Trade AJ while his value is high and sign Nick Johnson with the salary room we make bandwagon. It is a very disliked bandwagon. I don't know if I can handle his pornstache. Apparently, you are easily excited....excitable boy...

QUOTE (son of a rude @ Oct 11, 2009 -> 11:46 PM) nickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonn ickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonni c kjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnsonnickjohnson Have another!

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Oct 11, 2009 -> 10:53 PM) This. And you have to take salary into consideration. If you can get Jim at 4 mill, and Nick Johnson and Abreu are wanting double to triple that is it worth it? We really need to stop counting on Abreu for anything. There is absolutely no way, that if he somehow escapes the Angels' clutches, that he's going to be doing it to sign with the White Sox.

If we're not going to be interested in an .850 OPS guy as our DH, I'm just curious as to who you guys think we're going to fill in at that position...

QUOTE (WCSox @ Oct 11, 2009 -> 08:27 AM) Given this, Kenny re-signing Pods to a one-year $5M deal would preclude them from giving Jenks a one-year deal at the $7M or so he'd command. Maybe we disagree on this, but I think re-signing Pods at the expense of Jenks would be a really bad idea. We need bullpen help BAD, and Bobby's a lot better at what he does than Pods is at what he does. And if you're convinced that Jenks is done (as some do), spending that money on a halfway decent OPS guy for the middle of the lineup still makes more sense than spending on a leadoff hitter with Getz already on the roster. I'll spend on a good bullpen arm and somebody to replace Thome/Dye before I even begin to worry about the leadoff spot. Yeah, hard to argue too much with most of this...I mean either way you approach it, unless we make a trade to free up some cash or to acquire some cheaper players, we're going to have a few holes that we'll need to fill in with youngsters that come with some uncertainty. My one issue is with Getz. For those who are suggesting he replace Podsednik as the leadoff hitter, I'm just wondering how that will work considering Getz simply cannot hit lefties.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Oct 11, 2009 -> 02:38 AM) like I said in the Dodgers/Cards thread.. I like Matt Kemp baseball Well, you might be able to get Kemp. If you're willing to give up Beckham, Hudson and Jordan Danks. Not for me.

QUOTE (whitesox901 @ Oct 11, 2009 -> 02:31 AM) It'll get shot down like everywhere else I've posted it, but why not Juan Pierre? He's LA's 4th OF, I'm sure he wouldn't be too hard to acquire, he does have a hefty contract though. 2009 Line: Games: 145 Average .308 OBP: .365 Stolen Bases: 30/42 (Wish it was higher) A possible Linebrink for Pierre swap has been discussed, the idea of Fathom actually. Might not be a bad idea if someone offers Podsednik a deal we are not interested in matching. Problem is, if Dotel is going, we're going to need to get some kind of production out of Linebrink or else we're really going to be in trouble..

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Oct 11, 2009 -> 12:31 AM) I'd trade Floyd way before Danks as well. I still feel Danks has the better potential and younger, not to mention Floyd still has that hip problem. The "Face of the franchise" statement is a bit steep considering that's Beckham no questions asked, but Danks can be that potential ace for the pitching staff, not to mention that man is a bulldog in the clutch. I'm just glad for our sake we have both of these guys, and hopefully Floyd's injury isn't as bad as some think. Well, I suppose the pitching face of the franchise. As much as Mark has been an ambassador for this franchise (rather unintentionally), when you see Mark and Johnny sitting side by side, you can't help but see the torch being passed...

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Oct 11, 2009 -> 01:27 AM) He does that, he'll probably end up going back to what he did in Colorado. Hence why he should look at staying with the Sox, even if it's on a 1 year deal with an option, because it's the best chance for him to produce and if he does that, he'll get taken care of. He signs a 1 year deal somewhere else and doesn't hit well, he's back at looking at minor league contracts for 2011 IMO. First off, there is no reason he can't produce somewhere else. While he certainly feels comfortable in Chicago, there is really no evidence to suggest this is the only place he can be successful. Secondly, I think he'll get a few multi-year offers. Finally, his agent has to be aware of the fact that he is probably a 1-year stopgap were he to sign with Chicago. So even if he did play well here in 2010, odds are, we'll be ready to move on by 2011.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 11:55 PM) I'd be willing to trade Danks and Hudson. Hell, in a couple of years i might be willing to trade Buehrle too. Floyd's untouchable for me. I sort of feel that way too, but I don't know that if it actually came down to it, that I could deal Danksy. For whatever reason, he's the guy I envision being the face of this franchise in the future...

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 11:40 PM) Really Pods should take a discount if he wants to stay at the Sox. It's been really the only team where he's had major success at, and they gave him another chance to reviatlize his career and it worked for both parties, so they should come to a mutual understanding. He may accept a very minor discount, but let's face it, Podsednik is trying to take care of his family with this next contract. He's made a reasonable amount of money over his career, but he's never had a major payday, and being married to a former Playmate is probably not cheap. My guess is Scottie is going to follow the money here, as this his probably his last chance to make some real cash.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 11:31 PM) Yeah, I pretty much agree. If the Sox DO end up re-signing Pods, it'll probably be because JR & Co. are allowing Kenny to spend big next year, and that would be a good thing. See, I tend to think the opposite. I think if they resign Pods it's because we're trying to avoid spending big. I think they have realized they can't just throw anyone into the spot like they did this year, but at the same time, the money just isn't there to acquire someone that's going to make $8 million + on the open market. My guess is the younger kids are going to be used to save money in the bullpen, Dotel, and possibly Jenks will be gone, we'll have an OF of Rios/Quentin/Pods (or some other vet that is serviceable), and the same basic infield and catching situation. What they do with Flowers, I honestly couldn't tell you, but that also depends on what happens with our DH situation. I would be fairly surprised if Thome wasn't brought back, although the A's might cut Jack Cust loose and he could be an option. I don't know, I agree with what Steve Phillips said during Peavy's last start - KW says there are going to be some major changes forthcoming, but there just aren't many changes that can be made with our current personnel and payroll situation unless you're talking about dealing some guys that none of us expect - such as a Konerko, a Buehrle, a Floyd, a Pierzynski, etc. Otherwise, there is only so much that can change.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Oct 11, 2009 -> 12:05 AM) I like Hudson quite a bit too, but there's no way i'd trade Floyd over him. Their is nothing in Huddy's arsenal quite as potent as the Floyd curveball, i believe Gavin had the making of our #1 starter, prior to the Peavy trade. Then who are you willing to deal? Because I don't forsee us being able to keep all four of those starters unless we are ridding ourselves of Rios or not eventually paying Carlos, or having absolutely nothing in our payroll devoted to our bullpen. Now that Jose, Dye and Thome and are gone, and their salaries have been replaced by Peavy's and Rios', we basically have 1 more big salary coming off the books in Konerko's. Where is the money going to come from once we have to pay some of these younger guys?

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 11:21 PM) Hunter Pence from the Stros. Unfortunately for us, Pence will probably be one of the only Astros Houston will NOT look to unload; however, I guess I could see a situation in which they were forced to unload him in order to restock a bit of talent into their weak system.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 10:38 PM) First and foremost, the Sox need a high OPS hitter in the middle of the lineup and bullpen help. Their payroll last year was under $95 million, attendance is down from last year, and they've already committed $71 million to next year (and that doesn't include the arbitration-eligible players). While the option of bringing Pods back to lead off for one more year has merit, paying him $5 million to either DH or play crap defense in LF makes little sense unless the Sox increase their payroll substantially next year. Especially considering that the Sox need to spend in two other, more important areas first. What also makes little sense is the assumption that Pods will repeat this year's numbers because of some newfangled workout program that will automatically erase his recent history of injuries and mediocrity at the plate. I'm not saying that he CAN'T achieve his 2009 numbers again, but paying Pods $5 million to find out seems like a hell of a gamble to me. Especially when there are much cheaper options both outside (Crisp) and inside (Getz) the organization. In case you hadn't heard, 9.8% (and rising) of America is currently out of work, and I'm pretty sure that they won't be standing in line to buy season tickets this winter. The Fed has also injected trillions of dollars of liquidity into the banking system over the past year, which will inevitably lead to inflation, devalue the dollar (China has already complained about this), and could quite possibly trigger a second recession. I don't know what this winter's contracts will look like, but I'm pretty sure that most GMs will be spending more like they did last winter than they did in the winters of 2006 and 2007. "Panic" or not, the economy is still in really bad shape and there's no light at the end of the tunnel yet. Yeah, who knows what Pods will do in 2010. My guess is he returns to being a productive player again and posts a line slightly lower than his line this year. Honestly, in the NL, I think he's probably a more valuable asset to have, but my feeling is he will have a few AL suitors, including ourselves. As for the economy, I certainly was not claiming that all is well and good. But last offseason hit very shortly after the economy really crashed and there was major panic in the air. I am sure I don't need to explain that to you. I think a lot of teams were really frightened as to just how deeply this would affect their revenues, and were extremely cautious about expanding or even taking on any new payroll expenditures because of the uncertainty. Now that a year has passed, and owners can see there will be fans that show up, they will still buy merchandise and concessions, and the League is still in pretty good shape in terms of television revenue, they can continue to operate without any major deviation from normal practices. Sure, they are going to watching their bottom line a bit more than 2-3 years ago, but I don't believe there will be an overreaction like there was last offseason.

QUOTE (whitesox901 @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 10:36 PM) Abreu would be a good gapper until one of the kids is ready. Us and every other team is thinking this right now, including his current team, the Angels.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 10:55 PM) I dunno man; how do you trade for Jake Peavy? Pretty much anybody but Pujols is available. No, they're not. For a true superstar to become available he's going to have to make a lot of money for a team that is not willing to pay it. And even then, you have to compete with the powers that be, who can all absorb payroll fairly easily.

I have to agree with Wite on this one. I'd deal Floyd or Danks before Hudson, if nothing else because of the cost. At some point, if these young players we are all counting on do develop into the productive stars we need them to be, we're going to have to pay the piper. And at that point, we're not going to be able to pay a rotation that includes Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd and Danks. There are going to have to be at least 2 cheap young starters in that rotation. Not knowing what Floyd's hip issues may be, it's hard to say who you deal, but knowing that Buehrle will probably play out his contract here, and Peavy was just acquired, that leaves Danks and Floyd on the chopping block. As much as I love Gavin, I don't think I could bring myself to deal Danks unless it looked like he would be difficult to sign - and given that he did dump Boras - indications are that he won't be too ridiculous, although he did turn down the same deal Floyd accepted this past offseason. If you could deal Floyd for a guy like Upton, I might be interested, although at this point, I am holding out that Jared Mitchell pans out to take that last spot in the OF sometime in the middle of 2011. That means you have to find a temporary guy for 1.5 seasons or so. I'd rather find that in FA and concentrate on getting a young arm in return for Floyd as well as a 1b with one hell of a stick to replace Konerko in 2011.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 04:22 PM) NO KIDDING. How can he possibly think that this statement makes sense is beyond me: The St Louis fans arent living with "the hell we have lived with as Cubs fans" because they won the world series in the past 4 years. They may be pissed that they are down 2-0 when it should be tied at the very least, but this isnt a situation where an old lady is holding a "I havent seen a world series game in my lifetime" sign and every fan is crying and holding each other up after the game is over. What an ignorant article Despite this, baseball truly is a very cruel game. What a great season; not one, but two Cy Young candidates; another MVP season out of Albert Pujols. And they are cleaning out their lockers just like our White Sox, less than one week later...

QUOTE (WCSox @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 04:46 PM) The 2009 Scotty Pods had a lower BB/K ratio and essentially the same OBP as the 2005 Scotty Pods. The only noticeable improvement was more power, and a .412 SLG isn't exactly something to get excited about. You're also operating under the premise that Pods will essentially repeat 2009 in 2010. It's possible, but I think that it's unlikely, given his age and his unremarkable 2006, 2007, and 2008 numbers. I also disagree with your interpretation of the market. Abreu signed for $6M last year, but Pods is suppose to get $5M in what will be a similar market? I don't think so. Look at it this way: the Sox told Dotel's $6M ass to take a hike when he asked for a contract extension. And they need a decent middle relief arm a lot more than they need Pods. I'd rather have that extra $5M to spend on Jenks, Thome, or somebody whose at least close to the league average at their position. I also don't think that Pods' OBP will be much higher than Getz' next year, and Getz will cost 1/10 as much. I'll take a .412 slugging % out of my leadoff hitter all day long. And for what it's worth, Podsednik did say he has a new workout program that has managed to keep him much healthier than he used to be (but of course he is going to say that going into FA). As for this concept of Bobby Abreu's contract being some kind of baseline for every other veteran player's worth - that is just a huge pile of horses***. Let's all face it...the Bobby Abreu situation last offseason was a fluke. It was an overreaction to a disasterous economy, the belief that Abreu couldn't possibly continue to knock in runs like he has been doing for his entire career, and a lack of liquidity in the trade market because of contracts inked in more prosperous years. However, the "panic" about the economy is largely gone. While owners will continue to be more thrifty with their payroll budgets, their purse strings will not be tied as tightly as last offseason. Secondly, Abreu has proven that there is value to be had in veteran certainty. Owners and General Managers are going to recognize this and pay up. While some GM's might try and play the Abreu at $5 million card, the agents are going to laugh, as are the players, because they know other GM's are not going to be the guy who passes on the next Bobby Abreu at $5 million. Podsednik hit .303 out of the leadoff position last year. He managed to avoid injury. Good leadoff hitters are difficult to find. There will be Chone Figgins suitors that miss out and ultimately give Podsednik half the years and half the money and think they got a relative bargain.