quickman

Well lets put the Gavin floyd ready to play thread to rest. Sox farm system blows. And yes I realize nobody on the sox played well today.

vasquez will not go back to AZ. He has a limtied no trade and AZ is not on the list. He hated AZ

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 03:06 PM) I'm still waiting to see what happens, but I think KW has to be very careful what he says in the press. Ozzie's comments about how the same people cheering for Buehrle were the ones booing him last year were pathetic. FWIW, I hate Marrioti. Quite frankly, I just want something to happen. I think we will get some good player(s) in return if we trade him and if we don't then he will stay. I would be more excited if he leaves just because there will be a change to the rotten team I am currently watching. I also think if we do trade him then it will open the door for more trades. Which again excites me. We are a very bad team right now.

Hope she looks better straight on, she is not worth a second glance.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 08:51 PM) I'd have to think this isn't true. I just looked up Garcia's numbers, and he's nothing special. Plus reyes was just sent back to the minors today.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 07:27 PM) Umm..he posted an 800+ OPS over the past month since being sent down. I think he needs his speed guy...I've said it all off-season Kenny really screwed the pooch both this year and last year when it came to not giving Ozzie what he needs (athletes to go along with his horses...ie pitchers). But Sweeney is an athlete and Owens is well a 5th outfielder. although I disagree with you on sweeney being the future I do think he is mountains above Owens. I think this is more ozzie than anyone else. I truly think this is Ozzies choice.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 06:26 PM) Set aside the NTC.. I asked why in the hell he would sign for ONLY $14M. Good question are you saying that is not the number?

QUOTE(Beastly @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 05:57 PM) I think this is the most likely scenario, although I think he will only trade JC before the deadline and then Vazquez will stay. Buehrle and the Sox would have to haggle at the end of the year, then, and that could be pretty difficult to re-sign him. But a good thought, quickman. Beast, Buerhel will be signed now ( this week or next) or he won't be signed at all. that simple. Not sure you understand my point, but that is ok. All of this is crap anyway and not worth our time even though we give it our time! QUOTE(NYSox35 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 05:59 PM) To me, this is the optimal plan. I'd like to hang on to JV too, but if finances dictate it, I'd be fine with 2 of Floyd/Broadway/Gio/Egbert/Russell to go along with the 3 you named. Now for the next argument! Eggy won't make it, Broadway has a long way to go, Floyd will be given every op but will be dissapointing, russell will never make it, gio will be in e pen replacing thornton. I am not very pleased with the sox farm. Lets see if it comes true.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 05:53 PM) And that's why Kenny's not going to offer Jon an extension if he and Mark agree to terms. actually I think he will offer them an extension if he signs mark. Most likely he will do this in the off season. Tehn he will get rid of both jose and vasquez. build around Burhel garland and danks.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 05:32 PM) I agree with Quickman. If Buehrle signs with the Sox without the NTC he will get dealt. The Sox have a shot at being historically bad in 2008 and 2009, and shedding veteran contracts will happen those 2 years. Even if not traded, why would he want to play for such bad teams. Go sign with a team that will be competitive. Also, given the restrictions the Sox place on signing pitchers they need to trade Garland ASAP. He's not going to sign a 3 year deal either and having him in 2008 isn't do anything for the Sox. Every day that goes by diminishes his value. He should be able to bring back someone like Kemp. actually I think if Mark signs the contract the Sox will not trade him at all. In fact I think they will continue to put some added pieces in and try to win now. The no trade clause gives the whitesox an out if they need it, and it limits no trade clauses in future contracts. Thats all. Eitherway this club needs to get younger, faster and tighter. I just want this thing done soon so we know which way the sox will go. Eitherway a pitcher will be gone by the trade deadline and so will dye.

QUOTE(NYSox35 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 05:31 PM) I see your points, I just think that at the start of this, most of us thought it'd take 5 years $75 million to get him signed (at least). When the #'s about 4 years 56 million came out, I couldn't believe my ears and thought it was a great deal. I understand the idea of loading a pitcher, I just think it should be JC or JV instead of Mark like many on the board have suggested. Why not build around Mark, JG and Danks going forward? That's just me though. i agree only if the payroll were 115 million. its not. I think as i mentioned in another thread or maybe it was this one. The whitesox will determine how they will rebuild based on this contract. if buerhle is moved then others will be as well. The trick will be to get some real good pieces in return. Cleveland spent the last three years rebuilding there team, they put together a young team making some nice trades and bringing up some home talent. They suffered for many years of low attendance an now they are competing big time and have a very nice fast and competitive team. The window is very short to get competitive and compete in the division again. The fan based will fade fast. If we keep buerhle then we will try to keep garland and trade Jose and even Vasquez. if we lose buerhle, then I believe we will trade garland in the off season. The sox can go eitherway.

QUOTE(NYSox35 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 05:16 PM) Whoopy! We extended our term from 3 years to 4. Well, I guess that should just about do it there then. For the record, I think $14 million a year is a fair offer, but while it's fair from the Sox, it's certainly also fair from Mark's end of things. Also for the record, Zito's contract is 7 years at 18 million per. I don't think I or anyone else thinks he'd get that on the open market, but should mark hit FA, I find it exceedingly hard to believe that 4 for 56, or even 5 for 75 is what he'd go for. Someone would step in and come up with a 6th year or 16 million for 4 or 5 years. Given that, we should give this guy the FULL NTC. The whole fiasco is a joke... 30 to 40 is probably on the high end, but it's certainly in the range of 20-25 million (5 for 75 would be 19 million) Well then i would completely advise mark not to sign any contract with the whitesox. In addition i think that kind of money would hand cuff our team from getting better. Therefore I would start the trading forum immediately. Buerhle is no ace and that to me is ace money. In addition, I do not think the cardinals will give him a ton more as well. The economics are what they are. The two teams Buerhle wants to play with won't give him the kind of money your talking about. The sox with or without buerhle are still a fourth place team. Time to unload the guy. QUOTE(NYSox35 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 05:16 PM) Whoopy! We extended our term from 3 years to 4. Well, I guess that should just about do it there then. For the record, I think $14 million a year is a fair offer, but while it's fair from the Sox, it's certainly also fair from Mark's end of things. Also for the record, Zito's contract is 7 years at 18 million per. I don't think I or anyone else thinks he'd get that on the open market, but should mark hit FA, I find it exceedingly hard to believe that 4 for 56, or even 5 for 75 is what he'd go for. Someone would step in and come up with a 6th year or 16 million for 4 or 5 years. Given that, we should give this guy the FULL NTC. The whole fiasco is a joke... 30 to 40 is probably on the high end, but it's certainly in the range of 20-25 million (5 for 75 would be 19 million) I can certainly see buerhle giving up a fifth year at 14 million to sign with the sox. Although thats alot of money its a caluclated risk that he will be healthy after the fourth year and will be young enough for a another contract. Again its a calculated risk, but I do not believe he will get more than 5 years on his next contract.Just my opinion.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) What does the length of contract matter when all of the money is guaranteed? WELL...it would mean 3 more years of more money guaranteed. Not sure I understand your question. What am I missing here? someone said he is passing up 30 -40 million dollars moe to stay with the sox. Do you beleive that? If so how are you calculating it? Most likely by adding 3 more years.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 04:56 PM) We did, except for a NTC. I can't remember what Zito's deal was, but in terms of $$ per year average, MB isn't too far behind with the offer on the table, so how is he leaving $30 - $40 Million on the table (except for length of contract)? I'm so confused. CORRECT! But someone earlier in the thread said he is leaving 30 -40 million on the table by signing with the sox, comparing it to Zitos contract which I believe runs for 7 years. thats all. You missed nothing other than mark is getting a nice deal, and the whitesox are getting a nice deal, too bad its not a nice deal.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 04:46 PM) Mark will end up with a $14-16 million per year contract. Gee, we offered him one, supposedly. And that's not Zito money. So what point did I miss? You apparently missed the point about him passing up 30 or 40 million. I completely agree with you. We offered him a contract, we extended our 3 year term to 4, we offered a limited no trade clause, i think we did very well, and i think it is a great deal for both sides, but it appears the whitesox management is too cheap. It appears they should just give MB what he wants.

QUOTE(NYSox35 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 04:37 PM) I certainly don't think 5 at 16 = 80 or 6 at 15 = 90 is that out of the question for Mark. It's not so far-fetched that he's leaving a ton on the table. ok we will just disagree. We will find out soon enough.

QUOTE(joejoedairy @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:34 PM) mark is agreeing to sign for probably 30-40 million dollars less than he could as a free agent and kenny wont even give him a no trade clause. thats just stupid. I dont get how he says he cant build a championship team if he does that. I thought good pitching won championships and we're getting a discount. If the deal falls through now i'll be really angry I sincerely do not beleive that anyone would give up 30 or 40 million. There is just no way ANY agent or pitcher does that, so I think comparing him to Zito is a complete mistake and a wste of time. Now if you want to say he is worth an extra year at 14 million then I would understand, but he will not get barry Zito money.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 12:05 PM) Besides 2005, what exactly has KW won?? 2005 was great, but just being in contention the other years he has been GM doesn't do it for me. I can see blaming Anderson for last year, becuase he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, but that's KW fault for having him start in CF in the first place. He should have had a veteran CF as a back-up, and not Mack who Ozzie continued to put in CF, and lost us more than a couple games. So to blame Buerhle for us not making the playoffs last year is ridiculous in my eyes. The guy had a bad 2nd half, s*** like that happens. But last year falls on KW and Ozzie. As for the contract being fair. The Whitesox are getting a huge bargain if they sign Buerhle to 14 mil. a year. You make it sound like 14-15 wins a year is easy. Who are you gonna bring in every year and pretty much pencil 14-15 wins a year. No One that's who. Ted Lilly got 11 mil, and he is a .500 pitcher. Buerhle is light years better than him and will command a much bigger contract than what the Sox have offered and he has agreed to. It's a steal. Give the guy his no trade clause and be done with it. As for being handcuffed by the contract, Jose has a NTC and agreed to waive it. Most cases where a guy has a NTC and a team asks whether he would waive it, the player usually agrees to. So I don't buy the whole it handcuffs an ORG. Why would you want to trade a guy like Buerhle anyway. You build around guys like that, you don't trade them away. KW didn't have much credibilty in my eyes to begin with, now with all this fiasco, I'm finished with him. again i could care less about these players. I no longer get emotional about players, they are a complete waste of my time. I do though want a team that plays hard, is entertaining and has a shot at the playoffs. Right now this team has spent 100 million and plays like pansies. Time for change if that means buerhle because his contract is up then so be it, KW will be judged on how much and how well these players come to be after trading away talent. Other than that, I think 1 million dollars a win is plenty for these players. Buehrle most likely will not be any better than what he is. He is no ace, and he has proven he won't win 20 games in a year very often. I would like to have him but more importantly as a season ticket holder I would like to see KW's direction right now. Thats more important to me when evaluating if I will be spending my money next year. And by the way my money is much more important to me than Buerhles money.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:36 AM) We haven't had a super high pick though in a long time. Those top picks require a good amount of money. If you don't trade Dye and Buehrle, then you're going to have 4 more sandwich picks that all would require a significant signing bonus to bring into the organization. Mets and Dodgers are really hurting for pitchers now. I agree we should wait a few weeks, but this whole issue going to the press might make it harder. Even Ozzie is saying he's sick of it. Which is why they most likely will try to trade one of them. If they sign Buehrle then your problem is solved. if they don't I suppose they will trade him because teams will over pay for pitching now especially after seeing what he would be willing to accept. fathom i really don't think this is such a big deal. the whitesox are at the bottom of the league right now with the 3rd or 4th highest payroll in the A league.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:31 AM) When don't they sign their high draft picks? They always do. Go back to Bobby Hill and Weaver and Seay, those are prob. the last ones. Not to mention they overpaid dearly for borchard. QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:33 AM) Yes. He doesn't have to trade MB by Wed. Situations change, other teams may suddenly have needs to fill. right!

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:26 AM) Here's the thing...unless we open up the checkbook for the draft next year, all these possibly supplementary picks we'll have will be useless. We'll have to spend most of the budget on the first pick. well you can spend most of the budget if you decide to go young. Let dye go, let iguchi go, trade crede, Trade garland, trade contraras. Now you have lots of money. Like I said, the next three days will decide which way the sox will go. Complete rebuild or piece meal. I think it starts and ends with this Buehrle thing.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:23 AM) But if you trade those guys, you better be trading Contreras, Thome, etc. Most likely, you see I really don't care about any of these guys unless they win. they are not winning now so figure out who stays and who goes. Who is old and who is part of the rebuilding. There are alot of questions. The thing that makes it worse is we have a lousy and I mean lousy farm system, with possibly only one player ready to make the jump. Thats the real problem. If anderson and sweeney were actaully any good and there was a pitcher or two that could make the jump with an ERA under 4 then we can move on. So, its very delicate right now. These next three days will tell the whitesox and the fans which way this team will rebuild.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:22 AM) Agreed, but then KW needs to give the trading partner the 72 hour negotiating window so that we can get more in return. This last week proved that there's no chance we'll re-sign Buehrle this offseason, so you might as well capitalize on the situation and get the best package possible. I'm concerned that we're already hearing rumors that teams aren't willing to meet our demands, etc. No what he needs to do is figure out if he is getting enough in return or if he should let it ride and take the two picks. Thats all. Thats the only question and that may take a while to figure out.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:20 AM) Nope, but you have to keep talent on your team once in a while. This Buehrle situation guarantees that Garland will be gone sooner than later also. Thats right and if buerhle doesn't sign thats why i would begin trading garland right now or at the winter meetings. Now your rebuilding.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:09 AM) In reality, it's not about Buehrle. I'm just puzzled as to how we can legitimately build a playoff contender without giving out NTC to our free agents, not getting into biddiing wars for top free agents, not going after Boras clients, and not going after draft picks well above slot money. I'm also not looking forward to seeing Vazquez and Contreras be our 1-2 pitchers. Well when did we do that in the past with free agents. Thats not how we ever built teams. Nothing has changed except your expectations. The players want money first, that brings their security blanket. next there wives get involved because they don't want to move and they want to live in there own house. Quite frankly if Buehrle wasn't married or his wife pregnant right now it wouldn't mean a damn thing. So this enters another dimension. Buehrle is asking for the clause, thats the right thing to do for his family. The sox countered with a limited clause, and they have very good and sound reasons for that. If they can't agree then its over. Good negotiation, good asks and good money. KW then should be judged on what he gets back. Sorry even Roger clemons bounced from team to team, same with maddox. Take emotion out of it.