dagotony06

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 01:16 PM) I didn't give him a break on an overrated farm system as Vice President of Player Development. I gave him a break as GM. He built the system that was rated highly. Unfortunately, nothing panned out. He was intelligent enough to trade much of it away as GM. He did have Lee/Maggs/Thomas/Buehrle. But Crede/Rowand/Garland didn't develop into anything until 2004 or so. Valentin sucked. Don't know why he was even mentioned. And Thomas was injured for nearly two full seasons and the majority of another during the 5 years Williams had him. The Garland trade came after Erstand had one of the most impressive seasons ever as a leadoff hitter and Jerry Manual had nearly ruined Jon Garland through his inept managing. He could have trusted in his farm system and continued with the "Kids can play" nonsense, and he didn't. He was aggressive, built up the rotation, and avoided the mistakes teams like Detroit and Kansas City continually made. The 4 trades that stand out to me the most is when he traded for Robbie Alomar twice, and Carl Everett twice. Carl helped in 2005 I give him that, but I don't know many GM's that ever traded for 2 guys 2 different times that were pretty much over the hill. Those trades aren't the marks of a very brigth GM.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 01:11 PM) Um, sort of like two teams who haven't won crap in the past 15 years and two who haven't done any better than us? How MAGICAL was it for you to watch the Sox get swept out of the playoffs in 2000 and to watch them lose to inferior teams in '93 and '83? Personally, I didn't enjoy it very much. Yeah, damn Kenny for not replacing the "anchor" of his rotation who was getting hit all over the place last summer. Oh, what, that's the guy who Kenny is supposed to re-sign now. My bad. What about John Schuerholz, who is consdiered one of the best GMs in baseball? He's only 1 out of 17. At least they made ot to the playoffs in 83, 93, 2000.!!! You would rather not even make the playoffs?? That's a loser's mentality. I'm not getting your point. I'd rather make it to the playoffs and let the chips fall where they may, than to be sitting at home in 3rd place or lower, without the opportunity of seeing what we can do in the playoffs. I never said I would have replaced Buerhle in the rotation. I don't remember putting that in my last post. I said he didn't do anything to help this team at the deadline. Why would you replace Buerhle. he had a bad 2nd half, but he wasn't the reason we didn't make the playoffs. Our offense needed a jump start and KW didn't provide one. Didn't address that over the offseason neither, oh yeah he did I forgor, he signed Erstad. BRILLIANT!! The Braves won their division I think 14 or 15 times in a row. To me that's what you judge a winning franchise on. They won a World Series just like us, but even though they haven't won another,they still have sustained a winning ORG. by winning their division. To compare us to the Braves isn't a good argument. They are far superior. Their Org. blows ours away. That's just a sillt argument there.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:53 PM) It amazes me how easy it is to discount all of those things, such as a World Series title, but to make a big deal about second place finishes being bad. I used to hear that people would buy tickets forever if the Sox threw all their money into winning a World Series just one time. What happen to all of those people? Now we are stuck with the perseption that winning a World Series doesn't make you a winner... Second place is first loser. That's what I was always taught. They really didn't throw all their money into winning the World series that year niether. They signed a bunch of cheap players that gelled together and made a mgical run. They didn't overpay for anyone, as a matter of fact they got rid of alot of payroll, when they let Maggs go an Lee. I remember that people weren't too hapy about that. Winning one World series doesn't make you a winner for the rest of eternity. Sustaining that winning does. Winning your division, like the Twins, they sustain the winning. Just because we won a world series we should be satisfied with that. Not me my friend.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:38 PM) He has had nothing but winning seasons in his tenure, he has a .537 winning percentage (best in team history), has never finished lower than 3rd, AND has a world series ring. Feel free to criticize, he is certainly not perfect - but he absolutely has a history of winning. But KW says he doesn't base winning on just a good record. Him and Ozzie both said last year, big deal we won 90 games, we didn't win the division. So to me that is failure. 2005 was a great and MAGICAL year. The key word in that sentence is MAGICAL. If you want to be considered a great GM you have to sustain making the playoffs every year or at least every other year. Sort of like the Twins, A's, Boston, Angels. Not just be a one year wonder like we were. In my eyes he blew it lasy year at the deadline when he didn't bring anyone in to help this team at the deadline last year. So I have alot of to criticize when it comes to KW. But this is his seventh year, so to me 1 out of 7 isn't a good percentage when it comes to judging if you are a success or a failure. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:53 PM) He inherited a team that very well could have been in the same place Cleveland, Kansas City, Detroit were those years they were bad. And he refused to accept that and brought in players that at least made us competitive. I know, I know, he inherited a division winner. One that was based on smoke and mirrors, so don't even go there. He also inherited a top-5 farm system. That same top-5 farm system that produced absolutely nothing of any consequence. Mark Buerhle he inherited, i guess he is nothing. Joe creded was inherited I guess he was nothing. Aaron Rowand was nothing, Magglio nothing. Wow those are some pretty good nothings.

QUOTE(RibbieRubarb @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:07 PM) First off..you don't know KW. Second, since you so openly hate KW all that he's done...who is a good GM in your eyes? Just cause I don't know him doesn't mean I can't form an opinion about him based on some of the decisions he makes and things he does. I never said I hate everything K has ever done. Now you are putting words in my mouth which I really don't appreciate. But I will answer your question. John Schuerholz Terry Ryan Dave Dombrowski Walt Jocketty Bob Melvin Omar Minaya Theo Epstein Mark Shapiro Billy Beane Now I am sure I will get the argument from you that most of then have never won a World series, but in my opinion they are better overall GM's. QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:31 PM) KW is a stupid a** f***ing idiot who doesn't know s***. That is all you need to f***ing know. I'm sure that's not exact, but I'd bet high it's close. Not today Steff. Last night probably, but not today, so you would have lost that bet. But stay tuned there is alot of day left.

QUOTE(RibbieRubarb @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:18 PM) Yeah those trades he made, with major pieces of the team, in 2003 and 2004 really bit us in the ass. But I can see why you wouldn't have any faith...KW has no history of winning. Besides 2005 he doesn't have a history of winning anything. there isn't one thing this guy has won besides in 2005. And that is with having the most talent in our division for all them years. He has one division title and one pennant and one WS champioship. Some people are satisfied with that. I'm not one of them. I'm just as grateful to him as anyone for 2005. And I also realize that team was built on pitching, anchored by MB. The same MB he now won't give a NTC and is gonna run outta town. With JG soon to follow. So as for me having faith in Kenny GM, not me. But some will agree with whatever he does because he brought us a Championship in 2005. I don't and I won't. KW says one thing and then turns around and does another, says starting pitching is the most important thing, but yet will let your best starter walk away because he refuses to give hom a NTC, with JG soon to follow.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:10 PM) Oh darn. I was so looking forward to another of your 4 letter word filled posts. Nope. Nothing for you today, but check back tomorrow. Maybe I'll surprise you.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:43 AM) Would you also believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale? Wow. I won't even comment on this post. QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:46 AM) Some ocean front property in Arizona..? Or this one.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 01:54 AM) It's not pure fiction, it's an unsubstantiated rumor. Also, MLB has a ton of control over the content and design of the team web sites, so I'm not sure how much say the Sox have in the matter. Hell, the Sox's own flagship radio station reported the 4/50 deal that never happened. And speaking of that deal, I find it interesting that all of Soxtalk thought the 4/50 was ridiculously below Mark's value, yet they're overwhelmingly willing to believe 4/56 and that a NTC is the only sticking point. Is $6 million really that much of a difference-maker? It just doesn't make any sense. Well considering it has been reported by every major news source in Chicago, I believe the 4/56 is what they agreed upon. I also believe Buerhle is giving the Sox a big discount because he really wants to stay here, and the only thing holding the deal up is a full NTC that KW and JR are to unwilling and stupid not to give. Buerhle is giving them a great deal, now it's KW turn to give in and give him a nTC, because he has deserved it and wants to stya in Chicago. Like I said before, no signing Buerhle, will lead us to losing out on Garland also. KW has preached about wanting to compete every year for A world series title. He has preached he wants the city to be a Sox town and not a Cubs town. Well I got news for him, he isn't gonna do that by trading MB and JG, This is gonna turn alot of fans against him. You build championship teams around pitching, plain and simple, and he is gonna ship Mark out just because of a NTC. Wouldn't you think that he would build around MB and JG. MB wants a 4 year deal at 14 mil a year, and a NTC. Give it to him. Why would you want to trade the guy anyway. Like I said you build around this guy. Build around JG. He wants to be able to get prospects?? Well if him and his staff hadn't done such a crappy job in the drafts we wouldn't need to build up the farm system. We could plug guys into holes that we have. Instead of trading away the most prized and wanted thing in all of baseball, great starting pitching, with below market contracts. If this plays out and MB gets traded, I will not support this team until KW is gone, that's how strongly I feel on this subject. In my eyes KW has lied about wanting to compete every year by even entertaining the idea of trading the face of your ORG. It's all about the Bottom Line when you finally get down to it with JR and KW. There is no allegiance to players in this org. There always has to be a bitter parting of the ways. This to me is just another example. Well if this is the way they are gonna treat MB, then you know what, they can shove it up their ass. I have more faith that there will be peace in the middle east, than I do with KW selling off our players and building a team that will compete in the fututre. This will go down as our Greg Maddux, but oh I forgot "WE ARE CHICAGO BASEBALL"

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 10:18 PM) I'd probably pick Gar. He'd be my second choice. But they both will be gone soon so we won't have to worry about the World series for a long time.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 10:14 PM) And the difference between the cellar and 4th place is what exactly? A better draft pick that KW can work his magic with!!

QUOTE(SEALgep @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 10:07 PM) For the record, MB isn't an ace, he's a good number 2, great number 3 type pitcher. If we have to win game 7 of the World series and I get to pick which of our pitchers is starting, then I pick Mark Buerhle!!! He's our Ace, and I think he would be an Ace on alot of teams.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 09:38 PM) yeah krause and williams never won anything Krause inherited Michael Jordan. Without him he didn't win s***. He tried to rebuild the Bulls and f***ed it all up. Although I am grateful for 2005. Williams caught lightning in a bottle in 2005, but before that didn't win s***. He pieced that team together on the fly. He took a chance with AJ, Iguchi after never seeing him, El Duque and Pods. If anyone thought before that season we were gonna win the World series they were out of their minds. The starting pitching is what carried us, and now KW wants to trade away our ACE, over a f***ing NTC. You really want me to trust this guy. No way. Maybe some of the people on here will, but not me. I always made fun of the Cubs when they got rid of Maddux. In my eyes this is the same situation. With the way he is going about business now with the Buerhle situation I don't see him winning s*** in the near future. QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 09:40 PM) I believe another poster raised this issue about your posts, is it possible to make the point you wish to make without all the profanity, it is a bit much. Sorry. I'll try. I'm just very passionate about issues, and plus I just swear alot. I don't mean to offend anyone though.

Well considering that we will be trading Buerhle and most likely Garland, then the point of having a closer is mute. Why do you need a closer when you are gonna have a starting rotaion of JV,JC,Danks,Floyd, and the ever revolving 5th starter. So the need for a closer is one we won't have. I would trade him if I was able to get a good package for him. If KW can trade Buerhle, I look at it like there isn't an untouchable on this team. Thome, Konerko, everyone!!!

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 09:26 PM) They should just shut him down for the rest of the season so he's at 100% come Opening Day of 2008 since you just know they'll be bringing him back for another go of it again next year. Knowing KW and his manlove for the guy, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he brings him back. He's the kind of guy you build a champion around will be KW's reason for re-signing him. I really despise KW.

The guys is made of f***ing Crystal!!! Nice job KW on resigning a f***ing Chandalier!!! What a great GM we have!!

While Buehrle and the White Sox had agreed on a four-year, $56 million contract extension, the deal disintegrated because the Sox won’t give the 28-year-old left-hander a full no-trade clause. In the grand scheme of things, that seems like a ludicrous deal-breaker. And surely, the Sox will budge, right? “No,’’ White Sox general manager Kenny Williams told the Daily Herald in an e-mail Saturday night. “I cannot build a championship team if I do. The short-term and long-term ramifications are just too great.’’ Does this asshole even know what he's talking about!! Last time I looked if your plan is to build a championship team, I would think locking a a solid No.1 starter would be a priority. Especially if you are signing him to a lower than market value contract, and only 4 years. I'm done with this guy. He's an arrogant and pmpous ass!! He reminds me so much of Jerry Krause it's makes me sick. The short and longterm ramifications are just to great?? Give me a f***ing break. This whole situation with Buerhle just makes me realize that our GM doesn't have a clue. That's it KW build a rotation around JC and JV, you f***ing moron!!

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:06 AM) Fathom why so emotional? With the exception of this year the sox have been in contention for many years, they are usually one player short and its not necessarily the prime players. last year we won 90 games and we would have won the division if Buerhle was himself and andersen was slightly decent. We easily could have won 6 more games if not for those two underperformers alone. Once you get emotional about players every perspective gets lost except the emotion. Buerhle was going to get 14 million a year and a typical Buerhle season is about 14 or 15 wins. Thats a million dollars a win. I think that is pretty fair and who knows what the market will be later. Buehrle wants added security and the sox want a way out of the contract (via Trade) if they deem so at a particular time. I think thats fair as well. No team should be handcuffed. In fact I would argue the sox were handcuffed on contraras this year until he said he would waive his no trade to the mets. I am actually not siding with anyone but it seems that this contract with a limtied no trade clause is somewhere in the middle of what both wanted. Besides 2005, what exactly has KW won?? 2005 was great, but just being in contention the other years he has been GM doesn't do it for me. I can see blaming Anderson for last year, becuase he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, but that's KW fault for having him start in CF in the first place. He should have had a veteran CF as a back-up, and not Mack who Ozzie continued to put in CF, and lost us more than a couple games. So to blame Buerhle for us not making the playoffs last year is ridiculous in my eyes. The guy had a bad 2nd half, s*** like that happens. But last year falls on KW and Ozzie. As for the contract being fair. The Whitesox are getting a huge bargain if they sign Buerhle to 14 mil. a year. You make it sound like 14-15 wins a year is easy. Who are you gonna bring in every year and pretty much pencil 14-15 wins a year. No One that's who. Ted Lilly got 11 mil, and he is a .500 pitcher. Buerhle is light years better than him and will command a much bigger contract than what the Sox have offered and he has agreed to. It's a steal. Give the guy his no trade clause and be done with it. As for being handcuffed by the contract, Jose has a NTC and agreed to waive it. Most cases where a guy has a NTC and a team asks whether he would waive it, the player usually agrees to. So I don't buy the whole it handcuffs an ORG. Why would you want to trade a guy like Buerhle anyway. You build around guys like that, you don't trade them away. KW didn't have much credibilty in my eyes to begin with, now with all this fiasco, I'm finished with him.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:17 AM) Well when did we do that in the past with free agents. Thats not how we ever built teams. Nothing has changed except your expectations. The players want money first, that brings their security blanket. next there wives get involved because they don't want to move and they want to live in there own house. Quite frankly if Buehrle wasn't married or his wife pregnant right now it wouldn't mean a damn thing. So this enters another dimension. Buehrle is asking for the clause, thats the right thing to do for his family. The sox countered with a limited clause, and they have very good and sound reasons for that. If they can't agree then its over. Good negotiation, good asks and good money. KW then should be judged on what he gets back. Sorry even Roger clemons bounced from team to team, same with maddox. Take emotion out of it. Well I believe we have to change the way we do business. In this division where other teams are willing to spend money and go after Boras clients we have to change the way business is done on the South Side. Besides 2005, which was a great year, what has KW ever won? He put that team together and no one and I mean no one expexted them to do what they did. What was the main thing they had that got them to the top?? STARTING PITCHING!! The same thing KW always preaches about. But now you are gonna let your ACE walk, and that's what he is and ACE, who is accepting a 4 year deal for 14 mil. a year, way below what he could get on the open market, because you refuse to give him a full NTC. That is complete bulls***, and the guy should be fired immediately. It's simple you reward the players who have been there for you, especially if they are giving you a discount to stay here. He says he's worried about furture players coming here and wanting the same thing. If the player is worth it and is taking a discount to come here, then you give them one. It's part of the business. The way business is done by JR and KW has to change. I don't want to hear about what we can't do. We are in the 3rd largest market in the U.S. Start acting like it, and give this guy his NTC if that's the only thing holding this up. Swallow your pride KW, cause we all know that's hard for him to do and sign this guy, and build around him and JG. It's the right move in my eyes.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 10:35 PM) Great game by Danks tonight. His watching and talking to Mark Buehrle finally paid off as he worked quickly, and all over the strike zone, instead of trying to be perfect. I don't know if this was him turning the corner, but I liked what I saw. The one big downer tonight for me was Josh Fields looking terrible at the plate. He still can't hit a fastball, and that scares me. 0-5 with 3Ks and 3 LOB is not very good. The one thing I really noticed with him is that he never swings at the first pitch, even though the pitchers always seem to groove him a fastball to get ahead in the count. As much as he Ks I would like to see him sacrifice his looking for walks, and be ready to swing right away. Heck he only has 6 walks in about 80 PA anyway, so its not like he is getting on at some awesome clip to make up for the terrible BA. On a side note, its funny how close to identical Joe Crede and Josh's stats are right now. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/stats/sort...amp;compare.y=4 DON'T WORRY. KW SAID THIS KID IS GONNA BE A STAR!!!

QUOTE(Mr. Showtime @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 10:25 PM) Maybe if Dye wasn't playing like s*** they'd ask him about signing a new deal. I know. It's his own fault. I hope they get rid of this guy ASAP. I really don't like Dye's attitude since he got injured.

Sounds like Dye maybe getting a little jealous about not receiving any offers for an extension the way Mark is. KANSAS CITY -- The plan for the 2007 regular season involving Mark Buehrle, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi and the White Sox seemed simple and straightforward in theory when laid out during Spring Training. This trio of potential high-end free agents next offseason and the team for whom they currently played would talk about their contractual situations until the end of March, and then all further discussions would be tabled until after the 2007 campaign was complete. That plan took a decided shift in focus during the past few weeks, when talk centered on Buehrle jumped from his possible trade to negotiations for a new long-term deal. A daily briefing almost seems necessary now to keep up with all the twists and turns. In the interim, a valuable contributor such as Dye sort of faded into the background. Dye said on Saturday he didn't feel left behind and wasn't bothered by the focus placed on Buehrle. But his ensuing comments might suggest a different feeling. "I don't really care," said Dye, at the outset of his explanation prior to Saturday's game with the Royals. "Whatever happens to Buehrle, he deserves whatever he gets." Dye paused briefly, before changing direction slightly about the big-picture free-agent negotiations. "I really don't want to say what I want to say," Dye said. "No comment." Three more contractually-related questions were greeted with further "no comments" from Dye. The White Sox right fielder, who set career highs with 44 home runs and 120 RBIs last season, was able to talk about his strained right quadriceps and the progress he is making after missing eight straight games. Basically, when he feels comfortable running the bases, Dye will return to the starting lineup. "Let it take its course and go from there," Dye said. "There's less soreness. The [agility] drills I did yesterday, I just felt it a tiny bit." So, Dye's focus remains on getting healthy, getting on the field and then moving on from there. That movement might involve a trade to another team in the next month or so, but at the present time, it doesn't involve any talk on contract extensions with the White Sox. "Like who? [General manager] Kenny [Williams]? No. For what?" asked Dye when questioned if he had talked to anyone within the White Sox about his contract. "We weren't going to negotiate during the season, remember?"

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 29, 2007 -> 01:45 PM) We arent going to trade Jon, hes our best pitcher and improves every year. It would be stupid not to make him a cornerstone of our rotation for the next several years. Trading Jon would be in our best interest if we don't re-sign MB. If you trade MB, then you might as well trade JG, he would bring us back the best package in terms of prospects. There is no way we will sign JG if we don't hang onto MB. If we don't trade JG we will be going through the same s*** next year. MB should be the cornerstone that we build around, not JG. If you can lock up MB, then you sign JG to an extension. Get rid of JC for whatever you can, just to get free of his contract, that way you free up some money. Bring up Floyd and plug him in the rotation. That would be the best way to go about things. But our stupid f***ing GM is gonna try to build a rotation around the back end of the rotation we have now, JV and JC. Brilliant isn't he!!!

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 04:32 PM) Not a bad idea, but those two's extensions are going to be about $120 million in guaranteed money. Their combined salaries will be ~1/3 of the team's payroll for the next four years or so. That's a lot of money to invest in two pepole. If it were completely up to me, I'd extend Mark, deal JC, and play wait-and-see with Jon next year (deal him by the deadline if we're not competitive or take the draft picks if we happen to get lucky). If we don't sign Mark then us contending next year I really can't see. By not signing him, they are telling me they are going into full rebuilding mode. They have to see if they can get rid of JC and his contract. he's gotta go. You're not gonna get much, except salary relief from another team taking on his contract. Right now would be the best time to deal JG if MB doesn't sign. There isn't a reason to keep him around at all for next year. You can get the best package of prospects if you deal him this year. I say he has to go also. As for position players, no one is untouchable. I would deal Thome in a heartbeat, Dye would be gone, not gonna get much for him, but I would try and get something. Same goes for Iguchi, and Uribe. I'm not sure if there will be a market for Pods or Erstad, if there is, then by all means get rid of them. But something is telling me KW has plans on bringing back Pods and Erstad for next year. I don't agree at all if he does, but I just have a feeling he is gonna. As for Crede I can see us not even offering him arbitration, just like we did with Magglio. I think the Org. has made the move to the Fields era. I think they like that Richar kid they got from AZ. and he will be out SS or 2nd baseman next year. I would see what was out there for Jenks, because we aren't gonna need a closer for the next few years. I can't see us contending in this division. So I would see what Jenks could bring in a trade. Thornton has some trade value, as does Mackowiak, and Cintron, not much but some. Man the more I think about this team, the more depressed I get.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 04:13 PM) JC was also practically unhittable from about August of '05 through maybe June of last year. Mark has never been that dominant. Contreras' extension was only $29 million in guaranteed money and his NTC was only for this season. Mark's alleged deal was $56 million in guaranteed money and his NTC clause would've been, in effect, indefinite because of his impending 5-10 status. I don't think that the two situations are that comparable. People said similar things about Mike Hampton. You never know what's going to happen down the line. I understand what you're saying and agree to a certain extent. However, just look at the studs that the Sox dealt back in the mid-90's. Giving huge deals veterans with 1000+ innings on their arms is a huge risk, no matter who you're talking about. I can see both sides of the argument. I don't believe the 4/56/NTC deal being talked about today, just like I didn't believe the 4/50 deal that the Score stupidly announced earlier in the week. None of this info seems to be coming from a credible source, so I'm going to stop arguing about an alleged offer that probably was never made in the first place. Hey buddy, I don't mean to come across as arguing or anything like that, I'm just having a debate on the subject. I'm just giving my opinion on what I would like to see done. Everyone has their own opinions and I respect that. I just believe locking up MB and JG should be the way to build a rotation, I guess we will see what happens, but you might as well go ahead and see if you can trade JG now, because I really doubt he is gonna stick around. You will probably get alot more for him this year, than next because he will be in the same situation as Buerhle is this year. He'll just be a rental player. If you get rid of him this year, he is still under contract for next. Plus I would get rid of JC no matter what. I don't care what they get for him, just get rid of that contract.