Texsox

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 01:41 AM) Hillary, as she would then be supplying a miner, and her campaign would take a serious hit. I thought you were a college student? Or did you mean minor? QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 02:07 AM) Kucinich definitely. Back in Ireland if you catch one, they usually have to tell you were their pot of gold is. One beer = rich. nicely played.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 09:58 AM) I am not saying there should be a law against poor people f***ing and having kids, but morally, if you can barely feed yourself, what kind of a parent are you to bring another mouth to feed into this world? Your job as a parent is to protect and provide for that child until they can become a functoning adult with whatever skills and tools you can give them to survive. How can you do that if you have no idea where your next meal is coming from? Having children when you are too poor to even care for yourself is cruel to the children. I agree 100%, and I would hope that individuals would make that choice. I don't believe I mentioned any laws. But making a blanket statement that someone should not reproduce makes me uncomfortable. Basically it means that poor people should not reproduce. And as soon as we start making statements about who should, and who should not, reproduce, I get an uneasy feeling.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 09:54 AM) However, the AMERICANS who would now be filling these jobs are ALREADY getting the benefits because they are poor, unemployed, etc. So any income they make is a positive. If we had high unemployment, I would agree. But it isn't that simple. First off, many of these jobs are seasonal and finding Americans wiling to "follow the crops" has proven almost impossible. Many of the unemployed are skilled professionals, a computer programmer taking a job for two months packing oranges or shrimping, when they could be finding a "real" job, doesn't make sense. If you were an employer would you rather have experienced, willing employees, or someone working until they could find something better or forced to work there? IN the ag industry the unemployed person would have to move to the job. Think about an unemployed guy in Chicago, do you think he will move to Idaho to work on a corporate farm? I'm guessing he would have to be forced, and that is not good for the company paying the man's wages. I just find it hard to believe there are 5 million unemployed Americans that can't find jobs as yardmen and dishwashers. I see ads all the time in my newspaper for these jobs. We have the employees here. We need a guest worker program that works.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 09:29 AM) Wall = hundreds of billions of dollars and probably decades to build, further damages our international image, and still won't keep many of them out. Virtual wall combined with demand-side measures and enforcement of existing laws = fraction of the cost, and more effective. Pretty simple, really. I would only expand on the demand side and mention all immigration has to be tied to jobs. No means of support, no immigration. I would even be interested in seeing some staged benefit approach. You qualify for this right away (many health benefits for one) and others after some period of time (college Pell grants maybe?) We also need some government clearing house where once an employer receives word that this employee is legal to work, they can't be charged later with hiring illegals.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 09:27 AM) 1. If they come here illegally, they are criminals - a.k.a. "bad people". 2. Some of them undoubtedly are hard-working people who are desperate to get by. JUST LIKE A FEW BILLION OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. And we cannot just let them all come in and work without some controls. The result would be devastating to this country. 3. Part of the blame here does indeed fall on the government's inability to properly gauge immigration levels with economic need. Obviously, the jobs are there - so why aren't there more people being allowed in LEGALLY? On this part of the picture, I agree with you. Some of these illegals should have the chance to be accomodated legally. But that is NOT an excuse for breaking the law. I for one am happy to see this result. Dealing with the demand side of the equation is key here. The wall is a money pit that would cost hundreds of billions of dollars, and thankfully, will never be built. There are a dozen different things that could be done that would as a group be far more effective than a wall, and cost a fraction as much. This type of thing in the article is one of them. All great points. Starting in January, there will be about 5,000 temporary jobs available here in the citrus industry. There are not enough people here to work these jobs. What group of Americans will be available? Who will move here for two to three months? Last summer shrimp boats went out of business because we stopped the temporary workers from Mexico. Despite ads all over the US looking for workers, not enough traveled here to take these jobs. These businesses had workers, willing, able, trained, and eager to take these jobs. We need to make them legal, not add all the normal benefits, and keep America rolling. I could give a rip if the employees at Kemper have to move their own lawns, or golf course green fees doubled, but losing our agriculture industry has national security implications.

Some of these workers are third and fourth generation migrant workers. There great grandparents followed the crops every summer, it's the life they know. I am uncomfortable with statements that poor people should not reproduce. But many people have looked at selected breeding as a way to improve our gene pool.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 08:46 AM) The fun part will be when those who are against the fence want to use that as a reason to stop building it. Sure, if local corruption and cost overruns are reason enough to end a government project, lets just keep that thought going and end a whole lot more government projects with corruption and cost overruns. Might be kinda hard to find another one, though, you know how efficient our government is. Not local corruption, there are good projects up and down the border that have needed done. This will be the excuse to finally get them done, like levee repair. It's just a shame that this can't be done based on their own merits, instead of getting tacked onto the fence bill. They are also talking about compensating the ranchers and farmers for their lands and businesses that will be destroyed, which will really raise the price on this. If you were losing your business, you would want more than just the land cost, you would want the cost of your business as well. The ag industry on the river pulls all their water from the river. Without access to their valves and controls, it's all over for them.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 06:14 AM) I'm sure the cost of the fence will keep rising and rising. We all know that these type of things always go that route. What will happen though if we don't stem the tide of undocumented illegals flooding into the country will be the costs of 'entitlements' being sucked up by the illegals and their anchor babies, and their contributions to the national cofeers being a fraction of what is being paid by good old John Doe, American. When the jobs go from off the books to on the books, more people will qualify for benefits. That is why this hasn't been fixed. People working for $7 per hour will take more then they pay in benefits. No matter who is working the job. The wages determine what programs you are eligible for. That is why a guest worker program, with scaled down benefits, has the least negative impact. The lowest is continuing with illegals like we have for decades and decades.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/12/24/polyc...s.ap/index.html

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 04:03 PM) Hmph, levee repair, yeah, what a waste of money. This country's levee systems are fine. Yes, and it shouldn't take a fence to get them fixed. They should be fixed on their own merit, or not, again based on their own merit.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 01:16 PM) We have gone over the need for guest worker programs in other threads, and I am not going to rehash that all here. But one thing about your comment above. The big problem is not that some used fake documents to collect those benefits, its that a huge number of the programs don't even allow the checking of citizenship before the benefits are handed out. So you have many people NOT assuming the role, while still taking the benefits. The self-deportation should work well, as it will be gradual, and allow the system to self-correct. That hole needs to be stopped.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 12:37 PM) When Reagan did the amnesty thing, I think the high end was arounf 5 or 6 million that got it. If amnesty were doen today, the new high end number of NEW people getting that would be over 15 million. That is a huge increase. And if we do not go to the core and fix that problem, it will be 10X worse in another thirty years. The root problem is the needs of American business. For an example I am staying with Agriculture because I believe it is a national security issue on par with oil. The citrus industry here, despite major advances in automation, still requires thousands of workers for a couple months. The packing sheds need people to pack, seal, move boxes of fruit, truck cosmetic flawed fruit to the juicers, etc. Then nothing. The other crops need workers as well. But in between there is no work. Do they collect unemployment for 6 months to work 6? Not good. Think about all the golf courses in Chicago that need landscaping help during the summer, what do those workers do during the winter? So we have nomadic workers that travel from area to area, scratching out a living. The Ag industry has operated that way for a hundred years. Workers, many third and fourth generation, travel each Spring to the US and follow the crops to Fall, then return to Mexico for the winter. Living in cars, or substandard farm houses. Our transition from the family farm to corporate farming has made the situation worse. Our farms are located far from major population centers. The workers need to move and be in those areas for a few weeks or months then move on. High School and college students can't fit the bill. Temporary unemployed can't fill the bill either. We offer an incredible package of social programs for the working poor. Pell Grants for education, child care, health care, food assistance, housing assistance. Anyone using those programs takes more than they pay in taxes. Would it not be nice if we could have millions of these low cost jobs filled without anyone using those benefits? That's were the off the books illegals flourished. The government didn't want to bankrupt the system, so people working without taking was perfect. We've looked the other way for generations as this went on. Tax payers in the US and poor migrant workers in Mexico both benefited from the system. Then people started getting greedy. They used fake documents and collected benefits. They assumed the role of full American worker, something we now are demanding. So we will have the millions of jobs that were off the books, now on the books, and the drain is happening. We can't stop Timmy McVeigh and Malvo, but we can try and stop Mexicans. What we need is a solution that pairs business needs with guest workers who will receive limited benefits while here. Perhaps health but not SS. Perhaps education to H.S. for their kids, but not college. The problem with the fence is it doesn't stop students, tourists, etc from over staying VISAs. Smugglers bring in billions of illegal drugs, people will not be that much more difficult. The fence is symbolic and makes some people warm and fuzzy. But if fences were so effective, why do prisons hire guards? Our unemployment rate is low and has been for decades. If we think $3 gas was an anchor on our economy, try even a small increase in food bills. And do we really want to become even more dependent on foreign suppliers from South America for our food?

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 12:07 PM) Actually they are criminals if they came here illegally. But looking at my new tax bill, and the breakdown for the local school district and the 500% increase in the English as a Second Language budget I can agree with Nuke on the parasite comment as well. I would like to ask the illegal immigration contingent here. I love the argument of, well if they left who would do the job. Who did it before they came here. The massive illegal movement is something of the last 15 years. So who exactly did these jobs before. Because the country I believe still ran back then. I see Adults now who cant speak english who work in the fast food industry. When I was 16, it was primary kids in the evenings, and a mixture of retires and some part timers. Last 15 years? Reagan granted amnesty way more than 15 years ago. This has been going on for as long as we've been a nation. Immigrants have done our heavy lifting for over 200 years. From slavery taming the south for farmland to Chinese building the railroads.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 12:11 PM) If they want to cut costs, maybe they should consider hiring illegals to build it, again. That is an old joke here. The fence, if built, will be built by Mexicans, and some will have questionable documentation, or, at a much higher cost, the contractors will have to bring in workers and pay to keep them here. This thing is going to cost billions.

It's 54 here with a nasty little wind chill.

QUOTE(jasonxctf @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 11:25 AM) wow, people who are working hard to make money to support their families and put food on their tables are parasites? Of course you are a parasite, unless you come through Ellis Island. The problem is this doesn't solve the problem of who will fill these jobs. An out of work accountant isn't going to pick crops for four weeks. The hard core unemployed will not suddenly abandon their parasitic live off the government because there is a job pushing a lawn mower. I'm all for fixing the problem, but the needs of Americans has to be in the equation. Like our Ag industry.

QUOTE(NUKE @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 10:17 AM) Funny how you choose to label as pork something that protects our country from the daily invasion of foreign nationals as "pork" when there's billions of dollars in really useless spending out there for you to rail against. But then you actually believe their presence benefits us anyhow so I guess its natural. The levee repairs and other projects that are getting tacked on is the pork. Sorry, I thought I was clear. I assumed people would read the article linked. My mistake. This fence will also protect is from illegal drugs, premature aging, and skunky beer.

QUOTE(Middle Buffalo @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 10:28 AM) You mean go outside and play? What, is this the 1950's? Well after the parents hire coaches, trainers, nutritionists, have the fields checked by OSHA for any safety hazards, contact their attorneys, perform background checks on the other kids and their parents, organize a play group, incorporate, vote officers, beam their schedules, exchange emails, and let the kids be kids

QUOTE(NUKE @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 10:21 AM) http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrant...e.ap/index.html This is some really good news. It shows what can be accomplished when you drain the swamps ( employers that hire illegals ) that these parasites flock to when they come here. I believe you meant back to where they came from. Maybe Buffalo won't be ordering that burger in proper English

By the way, the price for that drink isn't as expensive as you might think. Cantu, a local builder here, bundles contributions and has Hill Bill down here a couple times a year. Donate $1000 and be at the reception. Maybe not as private as the scenario that Rex invisioned in teh question, but shows just how easy it is to meet a Presiudential candidate or former President.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 08:47 PM) Tonight Snow. Areas of blowing snow in the evening. Blowing snow after midnight. Windy. Snow may be heavy at times in the evening. Snow accumulation of 2 to 4 inches. Lows near 10 above. Northwest winds 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 100 percent. Sunday Cloudy with a chance of snow. Blowing snow. Windy. Highs 10 to 15 above. West winds 25 to 30 mph with gusts to around 45 mph. Chance of snow 50 percent. Wind chill readings 10 below to 15 below zero. Boo. Oh the weather up north is frightful In Texas, it's so delightful as long as I'm way down here let it snow, let it snow, let it snow

http://www.themonitor.com/opinion/fence_75...ials_levee.html Basically it's pork. Build the fence on the levees and fix the levees in the process. Funny, this would be the biggest public works project down here in 80 years. Hundreds of millions of dollars. Initially every community on the Rio Grande River came out against it. Now they will line up and figure out how to get a little something in exchange for their cooperation. One thing I can always count on concerning the leaders on the border, they always figure out the angle to get theirs. With respect to Sinatra: Start spreading the pork, their building today I want to be a part of it - my pork, my pork These government rubes, are longing to spend Let's get to my part of it - my pork, my pork

I like the Wii choice because it gets him up off the couch more. I'd also suggest at some point getting him a "real" tennis raquet or golf club and head outside and play.

Stuff I've listened to that seems to really hit home with the mood I'm in. Fleetwood Mac; Landslide Jimmy Buffett; Changes in Latitude

And here's LCR's logic in the Prince of Tides case. The parents should not have sued because all the publicity causes more kids to read the book. Why isn't he saying the school and teacher should not have taken action because now more people now about the case?