Texsox

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 12:49 PM) HELLO TEX. Thats what we're trying to do is match employers with people and do it LEGALLY. I never said the fence is a cure-all but match that up with cracking down on companies who hire them and thats a powerful 1-2 punch to fight the problem. We can match that up legally, and not spend billions annually on a fence and it's maintenance. The problem, if we should even call it that, is we have more jobs than people to work them. We issue thousands and thousands of H1B tech Visas every year. When Microsoft needs progammers, they lobby Washington and more Visas are planned. When the local farmer needs 900 people to pick and pack his crop for 2 months, he doesn't have that pull in Washington. He winds up employing workers without documentation at worst, or with fake documentation at the almost worst. At the core, needing workers and not having them has fueled this problem. Employers aren't creating jobs for illegals. This isn't some charity thing. Let's address the issue of importing workers when we need them in a controlled and safe manner. When that happens, we won't need a fence.

If we are going to spend billions of dollars on securing our borders, let's spend it on securing the freight that comes in here. On one side is the economic pressure to clear containers as quickly as possible and on the other is the security concerns of not being able to physically check each and every container. Perhaps the threat of a WMD getting smuggled in should be a higher concern than an illiterate farm worker trying to feed his family by sneaking into the country. But hey that's just me agreeing with Bush and Reagan, and we know what a GOPerhead I am. If it wasn't for the damn liberal media bringing up all this fence and illegal stuff, we would have just went with Bush's proposal for a guest worker program or another amnesty like Reagan.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 12:17 PM) EAST Germany put up the Berlin wall to keep people from leaving an oppressive communist regime. The purpose of this is to stop people from invading our country which, by the way, is a wholly legitimate purpose. People from invading our country? Wouldn't it be better to come up with a policy that matches the employer with the worker who is invading? You act like we have armies at our border. We have poor huddled masses looking for jobs and across the river are employers willing to hire them. To keep that from happening, we need to spend billions on dollars.

QUOTE(Controlled Chaos @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 11:52 AM) What's the opposition to a fence?? I know this addresses only part 1 of the problem. I just want to hear the negatives to it. billions of dollars to contruct, and it probably would not keep illegals out. The borders are thousands of miles long. It would be too costly to build and control and for what benefit? Terrorists can come in on tourist visas. Tourism is still a huge industry and we don't want to stop that. A guest worker program that would fill the demands we have for unskilled labor would eliminate the incentive for individuals to sneak across to find work. Most employers wouldn't want to hire them if legal workers were available. We also benefit from cross border economies. We have thousands of workers here that live on the US side and work in Mexico at the maquilla plants. They pay taxes and shop on the US side. Instead of moving a plant to China and losing all the jobs, we retain the managerial and only lose the manual labor, low skilled and low wage jobs. It also keeps those jobs in Mexico and helps ease the immigration problem. Likewise, this area thrives on consumers from northern Mexico who spend hundreds of millions of dollars in our stores and vacationing. LaPlaza Mall is one of the countries busiest and most stores are in their top 5 in sales per square foot for their chains. That is almost all Mexican Nationals. We say illegal is illegal, but we always balance the cost of enforcement against the cost of the crime. For example we invest Z dollars to fight speeding. We could eliminate speeding by spending $Zx1000, but it just isn't worth it. Businesses know they could eliminate shoplifting by requiring all customers to empty their pockets and be x-rayed on their way in and out of the store. But the loss in business outweighs the loss in product. And would you want to live near that wall? You could make your home more secure by installing bars on the windows, have an armed guard outside your door, etc. but that detracts from your quality of life.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 11:12 AM) BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/20/immigrat...aids/index.html This is how its done!!!!!!! FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT!!!!! I'm with you Nuke, this company clearly knew about the problem and ignored it. These are the ones that ignored the law and should be punished. But that isn't the solution we need. because it it was, we'd be chanting 1,000 Down 11,999,000 to GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And that, we've all agreed is too expensive and probably not possible.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 11:19 AM) Throw this on top of something like jail time for complicit execs and $50,000 fine per illegal employee and you have your answer for stopping illegal immigration. And toss in a solution to who does these jobs, restart the closed businesses, build the jails, open more courts, and you have really solved the problem. Would you jail the execs at the top? The HR manager? Their immediate supervisor? Those are the individuals that should be jailed, then deported. This person fooled banks and everyone else. Some here would then also prosecute the employer for also being fooled by the paperwork, because that would stop illegal immigration.

One of the loses that comes with a mobile society is local flavors. Chili, at its root, is a meat dish spiced with local ingrediants. In Texas we have many chili peppers growing wild, along with wild onions, and spices. So a chili emerged using those ingrediants. As people mix and bring with them "exotic" spices and dishes, the world becomes more of a melting pot, with each area more and more like every other area until Paris, TX and Cairo, IL become Paris, France and Cairo Egypt and vice versa.

QUOTE(LosMediasBlancas @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 10:48 AM) anyone else's hayfever and allergies kick in this week? Come on and visit me, allergy hell. That stuff is year round, or so it seems.

BTW, illegals cook the best chili with peppers and stuff they gather on their trip

QUOTE(Soxy @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 10:48 AM) So, I'm guessing I can't get a good vegetarian chilli in Texas? Yes, you can get some great vegetarian chili in Texas. It just will not be Texas Chili. It will be chili in Texas. BTW, the reliance on the peppers and spices to make the chili helps a good vegetarian chili, not taking anything away. A tomato based, processed spice, bean filled chili is yuck, but a carefully crafted pot of chilis and I guess beans or tofu, is wonderful. Welcome to Texas, Y'all come anytime.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 10:55 AM) I'd like to point out that when I suggested we don't enforce Pub Intox laws in bars, you used the exact opposite of this argument - that we cannot pick and choose the laws we enforce. Which is why we need to find a public policy that works. The laws need to be changed, to work for America. We do need to enforce the law, and find the proper disposition to the case. I believe the proper disposition is not trying to deport millions of workers and cripple some industry segments. The proper disposition is accept in, via some amnesty or guest worker program, those that have been living here and being good citizens, and deporting those that have broken other laws in addition to our immigration laws.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 10:51 AM) Like I have said through out this whole thread... The big picture is to solve this problem once and for all. Making every single illegal alien here a citizen doesn't solve a damned thing for the United States in the long run, and neither does expelling them all. We still have porous borders, 12 million illegals here, half a million more illegals showing up a year, and no reason for them to stop coming. We need to plug that hole right there, and make it so that there is no incentive to come into the United States illegally, and this program doesn't even begin to do so. You can argue the fine points, and ask me as many questions as you want, but it all comes down to that answer right there. It does begin, but doesn't do enough.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 10:44 AM) Breaking multiple laws doesn't make you a criminal? Now that's funny. Of course you are correct, it makes you a criminal. But we have always used judgement in how we enforce the laws. Governors and Presidents have broad powers to offer clemency or pardons. Many have said that rounding them up and deporting them isn't an option, As a society, we are agreeing to leave these "criminals" walking around. I see a difference between employing "criminals" who we have decided can be walking around free and employing "criminals" that we feel should be locked up. Am I missing something?

QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 10:34 AM) Ah, but the best Texas-style chilis that I have had use fine cubed beef and not ground. Exactly, and who puts in a bunch of hot peppers in their sloppy joes or taco meat? http://www.g6csy.net/chile/recp-texas.html Hell, we invented the stuff, we should know which fixin's go into it. I'm guessing y'all that put beans in it, also just use some pre-packaged, bland "chili powder" or packaged seasonings and cook it in less than 3 or 4 hours. You are correct then you will need some beans or anything to fix that up, but y'all got a mess to begin with. Now if you are going to slow cook your chili, with fresh herbs and spices, along with some dried. Use a good chuck of meat, filet wouldn't be unheard of, and finely cube it. Time your seasoning "dumps" throughout the all day cooking process to achieve a depth of flavors, add several chilis and peppers to again, broaden the range and depth of your chili. Then you will see why beans would be an insult to the dish.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 09:31 AM) No liberal media bias there. So if he was the worse, it is possible for anyone to call him that and be true, and not just media bias? Seriously YAS, is it possible for Republicans to screw up? Is it possible for the media to report on it and have it not be media bias? How the hell would you know the difference?

QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 10:21 AM) OK, now that some Texas folk have chimed in (sorry I forgot TRU was Lone Star as also). first, thanks for corroborating my no beans stance on Texas chili. Now, what woudl a Tex-Mex taco be, if there even is such a thing? My kid now wants to bring tacos instead of chili, and our telling her that they are an example of Mexican food and not Texas food is falling on deaf eight-year-old ears. So, apparently we now have to make Tex-Mex tacos. A couple options would be corn tortilla, slightly to moderatly greasy with bistek (chopped steak) onions and cilantro. Definately "Tex-Mex" flour tortilla with scrambled eggs, and whatever makes a good omlette. How about some Texas BBQ? Pit smoked, (pecan or mesquit) Brisket with beans, rice or potato sales, raw onion, pickle, jalepenos, and a couple slices of white bread and some sweeeeeeeet tea. That would be my first choice. If you could get some BBQ sauce from Millers or Rudy's that would be almost perfect.

QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 08:28 AM) Yes they are, and it's a grand thing. Pork chops and hash browns "All The Way" -- with chopped onions, cheese and couple of over-easy eggs on top = artery-clogging heaven. And some coffee with chicory Of course, that's a change after biscuits and gravy or breakfast tacos of eggs, cheese, potatos, and refried beans.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 07:40 AM) If their are people in more dire need than Mexico, why are we so worried about fixing their problems? Also if we are only worried about American's how is a guest worker program really in our best interests? Right now we have a seemingly endless supply of below minimum wage labor willing to work in unsafe conditions to do all of the jobs we don't want to do, while not burdening our social entitlement programs at all. Companies win because they don't have to pay high wages or offer benefits, we the consumers win because costs are kept low for us in low skill labor intensive sectors. Why are we worried about these people at all then? Supposedly they aren't taking any American's jobs that they want to do, so we don't lose there either... If this is just about us, why help the illegal aliens at all? That would just hurt us in the long run anyway. Why would we hurt OURSELVES to help Mexicans in the first place? Can you see how that arguement doesn't hold up at all? Thank you for illustrating my point better than I was. You have outlined most, if not all of the issues that need to be debated and worked into a new immigration law. What you left out, and I believe should be left out, is how many Americans Honduras allows into Honduras, or Brazil, or Mexico. I don't believe at some point in writing the new policy we should hear, "well Honduras allows unlimited Americans so we should allow unlimited Hondurans, or else we will be hypocrits." If expelling all illegals is the correct policy for America, let's do it. But as soon as we back off that stance, then we have accepted them into this country and have to decide what is best for America. You guys keep switching back and forth. Do you want them to stay or not? After all they are criminals and illegals. Or do you want to find a way for them to stay? Why would we want to hurt ourselves to help Mexicans? I hope you aren't asking me that question because I've been saying we don't want to hurt ourselves. That if it is best for us to grant amnesty then grant amnesty, if it is best to expell them, then expell them. But don't make the decision on what Mexico allows or doesn't allow.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 07:27 AM) Tex- Here is another idea. If there is really that much low-pay, hard labor work needed to be done, maybe we can put our overburdened prison system to work on that. There are of course limitations to that, but I think it could be part of the solution. Because as soon as you use prison labor, you have taken a job from a honest person and given it to a criminal. Which is why I prefer a guest worker program and allowing people who want the jobs to come here and work those jobs while earning citizenship. Regardless of what that countries' immigration laws are. I also favor a program to allow those who are already here to stay as long as they have not committed any crimes while in the US.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 06:58 AM) Look. Bottom line is this. Mexico wants to pawn off their poor people on us, so our GOVERNMENT can take care of them with the social programs that are here in America. That way, the corrupt assholes in Mexico gets to funnel all their money to the government which allows the fat cats to get bigger. Oh wait, that's what the Democrats say here about the tax cuts. I guess we're no better. And our workforce needs them. The hypocrisy argument just doesn't make sense to me. If you really believe that, then we would have to throw open the border to an unlimited number of immigrants from any country that allows unlimited Americans to immigrate. Because we wouldn't want to be hypocrits. I don't have a problem with us allowing more, or less, immigrants than that country allows from the US. Obviously you two do. So besides just calling them hypocrits, please tell me why it is in our best interest to base our immigration laws on those of other countries.

Here's something I just don't get. Instead of celebrating the fact that our society has advanced to the stage where our children can have careers that are more lucrative than toiling at unskilled, manual labor jobs, some seem to be proposing we should take a giant step back and raise Americans to work these jobs? Because if we don't want immigrants to do them, then it must be y'alls children. IMHO, we should be happy our children do not have to do these jobs. That a high school diploma moves them a couple steps up the job ladder. We also have made a college education within grasp of anyone with the resolve to go to school. We are paying big money for one of the world's greatest education systems and now some would have us turning out busboys, produce pickers, and lawn men. We are even insisting these workers get educated, we want them to learn English, even though many are illiterate in their own language. First generation immigrants have been doing these jobs forever, in every society. Those that come first hopefully provide a platform for their children to move ahead and grab hold of the American dream.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Apr 20, 2006 -> 06:18 AM) BS. Mexico has the fifth largest economy in the world. But it's so poor!!! It's so corrupt though that the poor people stay poor. They all are pawned off here. Kap, that isn't accurate. I'm not certain where you found that information, but there are many larger. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...r/2001rank.html SS, Shouldn't we do what is right for America? I know you want to change Mexico, and perhaps your proposed changes would be for the better, but I'm tired of trying to solve the world's problems. I'm an American and not a Mexican. Mexico and the US are different countries and have different needs. If Mexico allowed unlimited immigration and then told the US that they had to also, we wouldn't accept that. Why should we care what another countries' laws are? We have a choice of either training unskilled laborors in this country or allowing immigration. If a guest worker program is in our nation's best interest, then I don't see where we should hurt ourselves to change Mexico laws.

Beans? Just say No. And of course, this thread wouldn't be complete without this gem

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Apr 19, 2006 -> 06:46 PM) Its really simple. The Mexican government is trying to get rid of as many of its own poor people as it can by pawning them off on the U.S. Its a nice bonus also that the money they send back is the second largest revenue source for their country to boot. Mexico a blueprint for our country to follow. Mexico is a third world country with much different needs than the US. How anyone thinks that both countries are equal and should have equal laws surprises me. Yes, Mexico has a lot of poor, unskilled workers. And, in perfect symetry, the US has a need for lots of unskilled workers. Thank God we have an education system and a society, that actually can take almost anyone, put them through our schools, and they will be qualified to work jobs above unskilled. But instead of celebrating our good fortune and the bounty that comes with being a world power, we are thnking we should have the same laws as Mexico. Let's set out sights a bit higher. Shouldn't the US laws be based on what is best for the US and not compare it with what Mexico does? And Nuke, since you are such a fan of Mexico laws, let's take away everyone's guns like Mexico.

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