Texsox

Does the DA have a moral or ethical responsibility to do what the public wants even if he knows it is wrong? I don't think so, but I'm wondering how we view elected officials and following what the people who elected them want.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 12:24 PM) Thats what the government is trying to do but people still want to protest and wave mexican flags and demand that their criminal activity be forgotten. Thats wrong. If it is in our nation's best interest to forget their criminal history, then I agree, we should. I don't think we should spend billions of dollars to deport them, which is what our laws call for. And that is the slope we are on. Only the most extreme claim that rounding them up and deporting is the thing to do. So we start from a premise that we should ignore our law and modify it after the fact. Let's never get in this position again. I think everyone can agree on that. SS, over what time period and how did they determine that number? Was that legal and illegal Mexican nationals? Does that also include Americans living in Mexico? Like everyone here, all these numbers seem suspect to me. How much could you save on $12,000 per year income? Remember illegals shop in the same stores as you and I. If they could still save and send home even a $1000, that's pretty amazing. JimH and I just kicked around people not being able to save that without having the IRS hold it for us. Yet they are able to? They are far better money managers than most Americans.

Anytime you hold someone against their will it would be kidnapping. If you walked into a store and the owner locked you into a changing room and didn't let you out, they could and probably would be charged with kidnapping. At least that's the explaination I heard earlier on Fox.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 11:59 AM) You bastard. glad you caught that . . .

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 12:11 PM) Guest worker program. Do it legally and people like me no longer have a problem with it. I don't either. And while we are at it, put together an immigration program that works for American business, clearly this one hasn't.

Deporting? It depends on where they are caught. They sometimes are released with a court date. After all, we are innocent until proven guilty in this country. That is another fatal flaw in our system. I believe in throwing the book at anyone who has a court date and doesn't show up in an attempt to avoid deportation. A little taxpayer funded jail time, then a trip home.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 11:57 AM) I can agree with that much - the thing is though, is that all the "proposals" currently on the table doesn't do that. If they correct the real problem, and that is the people hiring these people, and not the people themselves, then we're getting somewhere. No one wants to look at it like that. Let's look at that. Starting tomorrow, no one hires an illegal. What will change? Will someone suddenly apply for that carwash job? Will a high school student suddenly decide he wants to work in farm fields? Will unemployment go even lower? What will happen to millions of unemployed illegals? Tell me who will be the next generation of Americans to work as migrants in the fields. Of course if you are going to propose legal immigration, I'll agree. But if you are going to try and convince me we will have millions of kids ready to take these jobs, I just do not see it.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 11:50 AM) Spending will rise, but with the amount of money that is sent back to Mexico, it stands to reason that a much larger amount of dollars would be getting sent back to Mexico (meaning they won't be spent in the US), which could very well outpace the increased spending in the US when balanced out against the inflationary pressures associated with the much higher wages would create. I've been looking but can't find any hard numbers. So I'm wondering what percentage of wages could be sent back? By the time food, raiment, and shelter is factored into a near minimum wage job, I suspect not that much can really be sent back. I can see where doing anything is going to cost money. It is cheaper to keep things the way they are, which is why for thirty years we haven't done anything.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 11:28 AM) If there were no illegal immigrants receiving social services, healthcare, schooling and the like then those services wouldn't have such a big workload and we would indeed pay less in taxes. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html According to this there is a net negative of 10.4 billion in 2002 and I think its safe to say that has grown since then. Wouldn't legal workers demand the services, and still not pay much taxes? Illegals are less likely to apply for benefits than legal workers. And a few posts back SS made a brilliant comment about people looking at the costs. It is brilliant in that it clarifies something in this debate. In our society, when someone is wronged, they make noise, lots of noise. When something is not working for our greater good, we take action. Why hasn't there been any uprising in thirty years? Because 99.9% of Americans are not losing jobs they want to a Spanish speaking, illiterate, uneducated, illegal immigrant who snuck into this country. Consumers enjoy the lower prices on groceries, at restaurants, and for the yard service. Businesses enjoy having cheaper labor, illegals were enjoying a standard of living above their homeland. The only people losing were the illegals in that they did not have the dignity and benefits of citizenship. They lived in fear of being caught. Now, who will probably win in all this? The people who were losing, who will now, in some form, be allowed here. Perhaps there is some justice in our world.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 11:06 AM) I believe Bush has acted with decisiveness. He's decided to keep Rummy on board. Which is not the decisiveness the situation demands, at least in Kerry's eyes. I think the Dems are trying, after blaming the entire admnistration, to find a poster child and are attempting to make that Rummy. I can't see that getting much traction. I actually find him pleasant, even though I don't agree with him all the time. If they can't convince me he's evil personified, I don't think they will get the rest of America to.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 11:11 AM) Out of curiousity has anyone done a study for how much it would cost to add 12 million people to our social entitlement programs and the subtraction from the tax base it would result in? Not to mention adding in the lost purchasing power from the resulting wage inflation price increases for industries that take up a higher percentage of income of the poor, such as food stuffs? I suspect this is why our government has looked the other way while illegals were being hired. For decades, we enjoyed the best of all worlds. High employment rates, low wages for manual labor, no government benefits being paid out, some taxes being paid in. Now we are faced with what to do. Whether it is newly legal or always legal workers doing these jobs, the social cost will be the same. Has anyone thought about the national security issues of forcing more and more agriculture outside our country? That is my biggest worry in all this. Mow your own yard and cook your own meals, but we need agriculture. Ancient wars were won by cutting off food and water, and we are slowly making it easier and easier to cut ourselves off from our food production.

Dear Bob and Mike, One general after another demanding Rumsfeld's resignation. More citizens every day joining in support of our May 15 deadline for Iraqi leaders to stop their squabbling and form a government. In these and many other ways, because of citizens like you, the wheel is slowly, but surely, turning on the question of Iraq. Over the next ten days, we're going to give it another huge push. But, before I tell you more, please take a moment right now to sign in support of the Kerry Iraq plan: Sign our Out of Iraq in 2006 petition now. It's time for Iraq's leaders to seize the opportunity for democracy in Iraq that our troops are sacrificing every day to create. If Iraq's leaders can't move past their infighting and endless delays to form a new government by May 15, we should immediately withdraw all of our troops. If they meet the May 15 deadline, we'll bring America's combat troops home by the end of the year and put the future of democracy in Iraq where it belongs -- in the hands of the Iraqi people. The clarity and precision of our plan stand in sharp contrast to the aimless approach of the architects of this war -- Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. All across America, people are strongly dissenting from the Bush administration's "stay for as long as it takes" policy -- and, just as important, standing up to the administration's attempts to vilify and question the patriotism of those who dare to speak out. Decades ago I stood up to the Nixon administration and spoke out for a change of course in Vietnam. Four days from now, I will be delivering a speech at Boston's Faneuil Hall on the critically important topic of war and dissent. It's time to remind America that, when a stubborn president has America headed profoundly in the wrong direction, only citizen action can change our country's course. The fight is just beginning. I recognize the importance of the United States Senate as an institution that can help change America's course. And I know that we can't force George W. Bush to confront reality in Iraq until we force the Senate to do the same. Sign our Out of Iraq in 2006 petition now. I will be acting in the Senate to bring change beginning when the current congressional recess ends on Monday. And I will be needing your help to move the Senate to action. Working together, we can make the next 10 days an important turning point on Iraq -- and we can build momentum as our May 15 deadline approaches. You can help right now in three important ways. First, sign the Out of Iraq in 2006 petition. Second, forward this email to as many people as possible. And third, pay special attention to your email over the next 10 days. Events could move quickly -- and you may need to act in a matter of hours. Sincerely, John Kerry P.S. Some of America's most respected retired generals have called on Donald Rumsfeld to resign. We've long ago demanded the Secretary of Defense's resignation. Clearly, if President Bush acted with the decisiveness this moment demands, America could have a new Secretary of Defense in place by our May 15 deadline. And that would add much-needed impetus to the drive to successfully end America's military engagement in Iraq.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 09:11 AM) Um, I hate to break it to you, again, but passing the guest worker program will have the same effect on agricultural industries. The same effect as deporting the trained, willing, workers and hoping to replace them? I don't think so. The reason illegals did not protest, is the same as why they do not report crimes against them, they do not want to be discovered and deported.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Apr 18, 2006 -> 03:15 AM) Still, you have to admit that there is certain hipocrasy to Fox's stance our immigration policies as opposed to his own policies. These are two very different countries, with two very different concerns. We happen to need these workers, they have millions of poor people without jobs. One country has excess workers and no jobs, the other has jobs and not enough workers. It would seem obvious that both countries would have different laws regarding immigration. And there are hypocrasies in laws everywhere. Mexico will trade with Cuba, but will not allow many Cubans to imigrate. The US will not trade with Cuba, but any Cuba who touches the beach, is allowed to stay. We accept everyone from a country we consider an enemy, but want to restrict those from a partner and ally. Does that make sense? Kap, you are correct, they are illegal. The issue is, how badly do we want to punish ourselves in the process of punishing them? Shall we invest billions in rounding them all up and deporting them? After all that is the current law. Let's enforce the law. Who cares what that does to out agriculture industries, we can always buy more food from overseas. Who cares how many businesses go under, after all these people are here illegally and that's the law. Of course, we both know that will not happen. So we start with the premise we will ignore the current law and figure out what to do with all these law breakers. Why should we punish ourselves and weaken our countries security by destroying our agriculture industry? So Kap you can't have it both ways, you must be in favor of rounding them up at any cost and deporting them because " ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. "

Usually after seeing a play a couple times and in slow motion, it loses its Wow! factor and actually starts looking almost ordinary. I originally thought the play wasn't that spectacular, now, after seeing it for about the 10 time, Wow.

Kenyans Sweep Boston

Linkage More at link

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Apr 17, 2006 -> 03:52 PM) I think you're right Soxy. I would love to do it too. Couple lefties starting a commune count me in. This area is plaqued by decades of unrestricted pesticide and fertilzer usage which has made the Rio Grande and Arroyo Colorado two of the most polluted rivers in America.

QUOTE(Soxfest @ Apr 17, 2006 -> 05:56 PM) I looking at it overall not just the worker permit issue, I am not down on workers they are just trying to make a living just stating overall immigration differences between the 2 countries and how V.Fox wants it ALL 1 way. I understan\ that there are differences in the laws and I don't see how that should effect our laws. If Mexico changed their laws and said, we'll let everyone in, now you *have* to, we'd immediately reject that argument.

There is only one really good reason in my book to implement this policy. If it brings in more paying fans. If research has shown that more people will show up to watch if Crede had shorter hair, then go for it. But I back management's right to have an appearance policy. I prefer a player's peer pressure version, kind of like Hawk players would not wear face shields, only panty shields.

QUOTE(Soxfest @ Apr 17, 2006 -> 05:08 PM) What part of Illegal alien am I missing, try going all around Mexico and stay after 60 days you will be deported, try as an illegal in Mexico to hold a rally you can't as stated in there constitution and even If you gain citizenship you can be deported anytime no questions asked as stated in there constitution, on Mexico southern border they use the military so illegals do not get in. Mexico wants US to give all things to illegals but in Mexico they want it the other way. Yes, isn't it wonderful to live in a developed, world superpower, instead of a 3rd world country? Are you suggesting that Mexico's plan is somehow better than ours? I believe comparing ourselves to a third world country is silly. We beat Mexico in so many areas. Our laws are our laws, their laws are their laws. Plus, I have worked in Mexico and can say from first hand experience, we do not want to be Mexico, let's set out goals higher. If we start to base out laws on the laws of other coutries would that mean we would have to accept every immigrant from some country because they agreed to accept an unlimited amount of Americans? Couple things you are missing. Mexico will issue FM3s for just about anyone to come work in their country, This annual pass costs about $100, is very easy to apply for, you don't even have to speak Spanish. You can then live anywhere in the country. It is renewable for an unlimited number of times. If you desire a shorter work period, they have an FMN which is available at the border and costs about $20. That is a 30 day work visa with the same ability to move around anywhere in the country.

I've been driving around a bit today and had the opportunity to think about this a little bit. It seems to me that this breaks down into a couple areas. Economic, immigration, politics, and ethics to name a few. I'm not schooled in economics, there are far better minds regarding this around here, but would like to see which conclusions I have here would be considered wrong. Our society needs people to scrape our dished, mow our lawns, wash our cars, pick our fruit, and dig ditches and other forms of manual labor. These jobs are not held in high esteem, are not particularly well paid, and do not provide much of a lifestyle. Definately not the American dream that we have for our children when we send them off to school and tell them not to forget the golden rule. Our education system needs to prepare our children to earn a living. Further, because it is taxpayer financed, the greater good of society should be furthered. As our society has moved from a manufacturing and agriculture based economy to higher tech, we have increased our wealth in a world wide economy, decreased the desire for manual labor jobs, while increasing demand for these jobs. After all a computer programmer earning a six figure income doesn't want to come home and mow his lawn. If our education system was producing an end product (Graduates) who were suited for scrapping dishes and picking fruit, we would believe the system failed, the teachers were inadequate, and we would demand improvements. Anyone who has spent 12 years in our education system must certainly be capable of something else besides toiling in a farm field. So we have advanced past manual labor for our citizens, we demand more for our children, yet these jobs need to be filled. So for the past several decades, perhaps all of the past century, we have silently watched as individuals without documentation, sneak into this country via the backs of semi trailers, in boxcars, and walking hundreds of miles, dodging checkpoints, and risking death. Now, we want to change the way these jobs are filled. Some would claim that we have able bodied Americans that can do these jobs. That despite 12 years of education, toiling in fields and restaurants is all they can do. Hopefully there backs will outlast their years. It seems plain to me that the reforms that Reagan started did not keep pace with the reality of our society, our education system, and the demands of our businesses. The system did not allow for the legal immigration of much needed workers. So now we have reached a point when this is on the front burner and we need to fundementaly change our immigration laws. We could say to the 12,000,000, thank you and goodbye. You broke our laws, and need to go home. We could further destroy those businesses that employed those workers. I believe we are punishing ourselves as much as we are punishing the law breakers. In the wake of that policy would be failed agriculture, which is not in our nation's security. We could once again offer amnesty, like Reagan, and not change any of our current programs, and wait 30 years and again have millions and millions of undocumented workers again. Not a good answer. Or we could work to bring those existing workers into the system. Punish those that paid their workers cash, that paid them less than minimum wage, that didn't make payroll tax payments. Keep out those that cheated, robbed, and didn't act like guests. We could develop a program that allows workers to legally immigrant and earn their citizenship. In short to look at what benefits out security, that doesn't destroy our agriculture programs, that yes, and I see no way around it, does make legal, those that broke our laws by coming here to pick onions, to butcher chickens, to mow lawns.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Apr 17, 2006 -> 08:11 AM) I have no tolerance for drunk drivers - its an incredibly selfish and idiotic act. But that phrase there in bold bothers the heck out of me. Its too derivative. DUI is a derivative law anyway, assuming that harm could be done. This is now a derivative of a derivative. Its not acceptable to me. You want to stop DUIs, patrol the parking lots and the streets instead of the bars. Stop the drivers as they get into the cars, and send them back into the bar to call a cab. And change the laws to allow people to be falling down drunk in bars. If there is a law that should not be enforced, get rid of it, don't tell police not to enforce it.

What the years between Reagan's amnesty program and today have proven is our current system does not work. We had a huge demand for entry level, manual laborers, and similar jobs and our High Schools and Colleges could not supply workers to fill this demand and companies went looking outside the country. Perhaps we need to look at our education system and figure out what changes we need to make to start turning out students who can do this work. With less than 5% unemployment, this is one way to reach full employment.

Supply and demand. There is a demand for these jobs and the supply has to come from somewhere. There are 12,000,000 people holding down jobs in this country. If they all disappeared and were suddenly replaced by legal workers, what would change? Well we would have rising wages, because of a short supply of workers. These workers, being legal, would demand the government benefits that the current workers are afraid to apply for. The same taxes would be sent to Washington, yet more money would have to be returned. The problem was we have a demand that has not be filed by legal workers. The solution being proposed is eliminate the workers. Who are these undocumented workers taking the jobs from? It's funny that when we talk about cutting the taxes of the business owners, or raising minimum wage, people say that it will cause businesses to close, it would kill any incentive for business owners to expand, there would be less jobs. Now all of a sudden these same businesses can handle higher wages. There are undocumented workers all around our country. We have senior citizens working off the books for cash so their pensions and social security are not cut. I agree, if the worker provided no documentation, and the employer isn't paying taxes for the work, throw the book at them, it doesn't matter if the worker is a citizen or not. But lets not cripple our agriculture industry in the process of fixing an economic supply and demand problem. All this hand wringing about our dependence on foreign oil is silly when you stop and consider we currently cannot feed ourselves with our current food production. Eliminating more farms and ranches will only serve to make that worse. The backbone of our economy are the workers at all levels. Reagan had the right idea and now Bush is also on the right track. Let's do what is right for the US instead of seeking retribution for people willing to do the dirty work in our society for low wages and even lower lifestyles. Put in place a guest worker program. Allow those individuals who have lived clean and quiet lives to remain here, deport and fine those that have not been good "guests". Make all businesses accountable when they fail to document their workers, no matter the country of origin. Paying grandpa cash is as wrong as paying an immigrant. And who is being punished for these workers? All the stats I see about the benefits they receive are the same benefits any worker doing that job would receive. If we are punishing anyone, it is the workers who toil at these jobs in an underground industry and never given the opportinuty for the basic human dignity a worker deserves. We need you to pick our onions, scrape our plates, dig our ditches, but don't come around to the front door. Yes Mike, the deficit will rise when workers are free to apply for the programs they are afforded by our government. Replacing undocumented workers, with documented workers will result in an increase to those entitlement programs. By ignoring the problem, those programs are not used as much. I'm not certain what point you are making. That would seem in favor of not doing anything. But now that the genie is out of the bottle, I don't think we can put it back in. No matter who is working these jobs legally, the benefits are the same. Illegals actually collect less benefits. How would we have less taxes paid if these workers were legal? Ending the incentive to being here illegally by ending the jobs. I like that idea. We need to begin training, or at least encouraging more Americans to work in farm fields, as busboys, lawn maintenace people, etc. How do you suggest we do that?