bigruss

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 11:29 AM) He said going into the season that one of the major reasons they brought him in was for guidance for Alexei and Gordon, and until Teahen's injury, Vizquel was only starting occasionally. So basically, yes. I remember him saying how Vizquel was not the reason that alexei improved so I guess I doubt that Vizquel was really brought in for that.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 10:34 AM) E-Jax >> Dunn Also, from what I gathered while watching The Club, Kenny was the one who wouldn't part with Jackson. Opinion, especially considering the way he was pitching up until the trade, and the instant boost that Dunn would give this offense. Once again, KW is the GM, this is his trade, that is fine, I obviously dont have any say in the matter. I just see this trade coming back to haunt us, as soon as justa few months when the offseason starts and we cry poor and have to sit through another bulls*** player starting.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 09:21 AM) You are quickly becoming part of the paranoid crowd. Omar did not play regularly when the season opened - it took Teahen both sucking in the field and getting hurt for that to happen. Ozzie is aware that Omar's biggest value going forward will be helping the infield, not starting. Has he said this?

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 10:31 AM) But you don't know what was requested. I'm sure KW tried to get him without Hudson. He had to pay the price to get a guy Coop believed in... And what? Walker didnt believe in DUnn?

QUOTE (bighurt574 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 10:27 AM) How do you know we didn't try? I doubt we came out of the gate offering up Hudson. In the end, Kenny obviously though Jackson was worth giving up Hudson if that's what he had to do. And that's fine if KW thought that, he is the GM and he has all the say in this matter. But as a fan, I dont have to blindly follow and believe in all of his moves. I personally believe that this trade put the Sox in a worse position next year considering the financial state of the team and the void of young, cheap replacements for expensive players.

QUOTE (bighurt574 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 10:27 AM) How do you know we didn't try? I doubt we came out of the gate offering up Hudson. Look at above post, if the price is too high you say forget it, just like we did with Dunn. THe DBacks are in enough financial trouble that they wouldve been forced to trade Jackson.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 10:15 AM) One, you don't know that. That is simply your opinion. Two, the D-Backs probably would have said no. Do you honestly think Kenny started the negotiations by using his best trade chip? That's generally not how that stuff starts off. One, it is opinion based off of the recent value of prospects and struggling, well paid (but not ridiculous) starters Two, then you find someone else to trade with. Just like with Dunn, you dont like the price because it hurts you too much in terms of the value your giving up, you dont do it. Yes, getting Dunn wouldve helped tremendously, but he wouldve cost alot. Same with Jackson, the value we gave may not hurt now, but in the offeseason when KW is crying "50 cents" again and we have a D Wise, Kotsay, or Erstad in our lineup because we couldnt afford something better you can look back at this trade and realize why.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 09:58 AM) When you consider the pressure he was under had Dan Hudson pissing down his leg and the fact that we're probably 7+ games out right now without that trade, then I don't see how anyone could STILL be complaining. Goddamn, I never said acquiring him was bad, Ive been happy with getting Jackson the whole time. I just dont think he was worth what we paid, and I think it will hurt us financially in the next few years, big time.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 09:46 AM) I'd like to see Konerko back, and I think a contract along the lines of 2/$14 million would be fine. In my opinion, he is a pretty good first baseman, albeit with limited range. But I'll take his glove along with his bat for $7 or $8 million a year. As far as Manny goes, I wouldn't even hazard to say whether or not to sign him for next year. Let's see him hit this month and then discuss it. However, I agree with someone else's post that any contract for Manny would have to be heavily incentive-laden. He needs motivation to play hard. If he's signed for 2 years $20 million, he's not going to be overly motivated. At his age and health, I would only offer a one year deal, filled with incentives, and possibly a player option if he wins us a championship (like he was the MVP the rest of the way, and clicked with the team chemistry wise). The thing is, when the team isnt winning and he isnt playing for a contract, that is when trouble starts because the little things he does then get blown up.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 07:44 AM) Like I said before, it wasnt about who can pitch better at the time, it was that Jackson gave us a better chance to possibly save the bullpen and eat quality innings which was a must vs grooming a young guy throwing 4 innings. Huddy isnt going to be Halladay so who cares. I care when we have to trade a starter next year just for financial reasons. Not only do we lose a player, but teams are going to know that we cannot afford our rotation, thus hurting their trade value, or we will have a suck ass offense again, which we all know how much we love.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 12:47 AM) Oh my goodness, this is Chris Young all over again. I'm not sure how anyone could fault the price paid for this guy at this point. Bottom line is, we were very confident we could turn Edwin into a nasty pitcher for us, without much of an adjustment period. We have done exactly that. What we were not sure of, was what we had in Hudson. But let's face it, he showed very little signs of being the guy he has been in AZ when he was here. Just like Edwin looked nothing like the guy he was in AZ since he has been here. Can't we ever just say that the trade has worked out for both sides thus far? Sure, you can argue that we gave up the pre-arb player with no accumulated service time under his belt. But you can't say with any relative certainty that we would be getting out of him what AZ is getting out of him right now. You just can't. There were absolutely no signs of that this year in his 3 starts. So maybe we would have never gotten it. Maybe it would have taken three more starts before we got it. Maybe it would have happened just the way it has with AZ. But we didn't know that at the time. What we did know, was that we could get quality starts out of EJ, and we have. So just let it be for what it is. We acquired a guy who has pitched to a 1.36 ERA (or whatever it is) and has eaten innings and been absolutely filthy while doing it. If I would have told you what Edwin would do in his first 5 starts for us at the time we made the Hudson trade, I doubt any of you would have been against pulling the trigger. Just because you're not sure what you have in Hudson doesnt mean you trade him for that value. Edwin may have held alot of value to the White Sox, but that doesnt mean he had alot of value on the market. Thus, it was a fine idea to trade for him, just not at the price we paid. Obviously, you disagree, Im just saying I wouldve offered Holmberg and one of Flowers/Morel/Danks2, and maybe a throw in lower level guy. When you consider what Jackson makes next year, and the fact we didnt receive any financial help, I just cannot agree with the trade for what we gave up. Jackson's value was not worth that much. Trading Hudson, your one legitimate young MLB starter ready to start now, will hurt you in the long run because now you have a $54 million starting rotation next year, and if you trade one of those starters you will ahve to fill that hole somehow. Thus, youre forcing yourself to trade for a starter or have to sign an overpriced FA.

QUOTE (buckweaver @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 07:51 AM) That's exactly the point. If the Sox have an additional $4M to throw out for 30 games, management can no longer claim it's hard to recover when a big contract doesn't pan out. I also personally believe Konerkjo is the standard-bearer for the franchise and should be treated as such. As for "diminished range" and "Kasey Kotchman=comparable" noted in other posts...please...who have you been watching this year? THe Sox believe that Manny will get them to the playoffs, thus hopefully canceling out the extra $4 million he costs. This is money that KW likes to save during the season for a player likes this in a situation like this. If the Sox are in it, KW will have some money to work with. $4 million may have been more than he really had saved, but still, it is his philosophy.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 12:52 AM) Then I'm copying every other poster on here. I've been victimized by the same thing, people misrepresenting my posts and/or not remembering my position on things. Thus you continue to ignore reasonably argued points and just say "Hey! Im a victim on here!" No wonder why so many will single you out in discussions.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Aug 31, 2010 -> 11:38 PM) The NL excuse card is pretty ridiculous, considering Hudson has faced better lineups than Jackson has. And it's not like Jackson was in the middle of a race too.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 31, 2010 -> 11:32 PM) Why does it matter how he plays the rest of the way? You know his age and his stats and his health of this season to go on. Does one month really matter that much? Is it the same with Paulie? Would you judge whether he's worth it on the next month? You are not convinced he's worth a two year deal after this awesome season? I'm convinced Paulie is worth a two-year deal at a minimum of 7 mill per season. Jeez dude, its one part of the equation. I wouldnt ever blindly give someone a position on my team, especially sign someone, because of a month of play. But that doesnt mean I wouldnt look at it. What if Manny looks absolutely silly at the plate with us? Of course that would make an impact. Just like Konerko's big year makes it much more likely that the Sox would negotiate an extension after the season. Do you not see what happened to AJ? Seriously man, you ignore so many points and just focus on what you want to say or what you perceive as posters bashing your heroes. As a GM, you have to take the emotion out of it for the most part, and see it as a business decision. First off, does Konerko even accept that offer? He is having a tremendous year, he probably wants to cash out one more time, that may not be enough. Do you even have $7 million to afford to a 35 yr old 1B, especially with such an albatross that is the starting rotation? There are so many factors you ahve to consider, not just "Do I want this player back?" The question is: "Is the investment of this player worth the risk, money, and resources it will pull from other key areas while having a replacement ready?" Thats a big question with a lot of parts to it.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 31, 2010 -> 11:29 PM) That is what I don't get. We won the game. We didn't need Manny. We have a day game after a night game. Manny is no spring chicken. Ozzie made the right call. We WON and now he's rested. Why can't some people give the manager credit for his decision. Winning the game proved it was the correct decision. Now, Manny, who was on a plane all day, is allegedly refreshed and ready. It's like some people think they will get an electric shock if they praise Ozzie when his moves work. Look Greg, the Sox made a big investment in acquiring Manny in terms of money, they have him for only a month. 31 games to be exact from when he officially joined the organization. With the Sox being down 4 games to the Twins and with such a short amount of time left, it just seems logical to put out the best lineup possible. From what we have seen out of Kotsay this year, a tired Manny>>>>>>Kotsay. And really, he was just going to DH, and with already having alot of time off this year, Manny shouldve been ready to go. And for those who say "Manny doesnt take well to orders," well, hes with us for one month and he needs a new contract. Push him to play and he will, because he needs it. And if we burn a few bridges with him because of it, so what, we'll ride out the situation and say thanks ofr bein a big bat for us for a month and we can move on. Yes, we won the game, but that doesnt mean it was the SMARTEST decision. Did it pan out? Sure. That doesnt mean Ozzie put us at a disadvantage compared to the alternatives.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 31, 2010 -> 11:24 PM) Well let me ask you this? To keep Manny would you sign him 2 years for 20 million? Once again, depends on how the rest of the roster plays out, how well he plays the rest of the way, what trade options are out there, what the max payroll can be, etc. I mean, we havent even seen Manny bat yet, so kinda unfair to ask that.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 31, 2010 -> 11:00 PM) So would you do it? I would. 2 years 14 million. Nobody will offer him more than that. Wouldn't that be fair to both parties? I mean if you don't want him, who do you want at first? Viciedo/Teahen platoon? Paulie makes more sense than that. YOu have to look at it not only is it fair for both sides, but what is Konerko going to be asking? It will be his last big contract most likely. Plus, you have to look at the team needs. If we believe Viciedo can step in at 1b, but have pressing issues in the bullpen and catcher, along with DH, do we even have the money to bring back Konerko along with having viable replacements at those positions. Or if we dont, is it worth trading Danks and/or Quentin to help with salary relief?

I hate how people are still chiming in "For those who hated the deal look at Jackson now!" and all that crap. If you look at most of the arguments on this site, you will see it wasnt the fact we got Jackson, but the price we paid. In fact, most people were intrigued by Jackson, and welcomed him to the team. That said, we paid a steep price for the value that Jackson held at the time, and without Hudson we have a very expensive starting rotation next year without any ready replacements if we decide to trade a starter. If we kept Hudson and still got Jackson, we can go ahead and trade one of our starters, fill some holes, while still being 5 strong. IMO, and I know Im not a GM but looking at recent trends and the value of young, MLB starters with potential, I would say Hudson/Holmberg was too much for Jackson and no salary relief. For those who use the NL excuse for Hudson's success thus far, then how do you explain such a steep price for a 5 era in the NL Jackson? Not to mention he really has had only a year and a half of success, and has struggled with every team he has been on.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 31, 2010 -> 10:44 PM) I'm assuming you want to sign him for a reasonable contract? I can't imagine any Sox fan wanting him to go away after his career, and particularly this season. He ain't finished yet. Tell me, you said he won't for two seasons? Do you think he can repeat this season or have similar numbers? If so, why would you want this all time Sox great to leave? Don't get it. He may not be finished, but with his age and hip he is a HUGE risk to fall off big time in the next year or two, so to sign him to a 2 or 3 year contract is VERY risky. Just look at AJ, who has been healthy, but that one extra year on his body has slowed him tremendously, even though he just had one of his best offensive years just last year. So offering Konerko a 2yr/20 mill contract is EXTREMELY risky.

QUOTE (buckweaver @ Aug 31, 2010 -> 06:57 PM) Subject of "Ramirez Slept Here" signs in Boston's outfield. Suspended for performance enhancing drugs in 2009. Purposefully thrown out of his last game as a Los Angeles Dodger. Begged out of playing his first game for the Chicago White Sox because he was "too tired." Flouted the owner's "neat and presentable hair" rule by tying back his dreadlocks in lieu of getting a haircut. (the very same owner who is paying him roughly $4 million for 31...er, make that 30...games). These aren't excuses. They're souvenirs. Manny being Manny...It's black and white. So as we are now required to cheer for the laundry that includes the number 99,, I make one last reply to this thread with this message to White Sox management: Do not hold the fans hostage over the resigning of Paul Konerko to a very fair, career-ending, long-term contract this off-season. If you can afford $4 million for a "diminished skills," diminished brain, ethically bankrupt Manny Ramirez, you can certainly pay the team captain what he's worth, particularly in light of the year he's having and the career he's had in Chicago. He is the White Sox' Derek Jeter and deserves to be rewarded as such. Yea, because blindly signing Konerko to a longterm contract at 35 sounds really good to me. I love Konerko, but you have to be careful with the contract you offer him, even 3 years is incredibly risky. And dont compare to Jeter, Jeter isnt worth close to what he is getting, and the Yankees are resigning him to that because they can. If Jeter falls apart after a contract extension, the Yankees can afford that. The Sox, it would be much harder for them to recover. On the topic of Manny, he is an instant boost to our playoff chances, Ill gladly take that risk of him being a team nuisance because if he is as good as he has been, we are talking about playoffs, if he doesnt play well and or is a distraction, hes gone at the end of the year.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 31, 2010 -> 02:48 PM) Wow, I pretty much dont agree with his entire ranking. One thing is for sure, its gonna be a bloodbath, what a tough conference next season. Even as an Illini fan, I dont see us winning the conference. That said, it wouldnt surprise me, but I see a top 4 finish.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 31, 2010 -> 02:45 PM) Why do you assume that its Ozzie's decision to not play him?? I bet Oz would love to put him in the lineup if he could. Yea, Im sure that KW doesnt want him in the lineup, I mean, why would he want him? Its not like he just paid $4 mill for him.

If Manny doesnt play, I will overreact (in some people's opinion) and claim that Ozzie needs to go. IMO, its obvious that Manny not playing today is Ozzie saying "f*** you" to KW. Manny was KW's idea, and either the players didnt want Manny, and/or Ozzie didnt because there is no reason, not with the timing of this claim, that Manny should not be in this lineup.

QUOTE (IceCreamPants @ Aug 30, 2010 -> 06:53 PM) Was there a physical involved,possibly? I dont know, I cant make sense of it. Have the physical in Cleveland, or have a private plane ready for him. Seriously, if youre spending this much money on him you have to get the most out of him.