bigruss

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 03:13 PM) They aren't particularly well run. I'd certainly say we're better run than they are. Theyve got money, a new ballpark, and great attendance. They invest well in the draft and are able to go out and get impact players (Cabrera) to help their team. They need to work on the contracts given to their own players, like Bonderman, Inge, Robertson (when he was there, even now theyre paying him 9.5 mill to play for another team.). They have plenty of areas to work on too, but they do alot right, if they were in first would people still not be complaining about some of the contracts they give out?

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 03:12 PM) Again talent is a relative term. I think the record is the most important. I think there were a few years where the Sox were more talented than the Twins and they won the division. The talent is one thing, winning is another and they don't always correlate. How do you build a team though? You cant build a team around luck, you build it around talent. You want the best team in the league, it doesnt always end up that the most talented wins teh division, but it gives you a damn good chance. And lets say if Konerko went down this year, but we had a stellar farm system, and we were right in it in terms of competing still. We could use that system to replace Konerko. It gives you so much flexibility and opportunities to have a stellar farm system, and yet it doesnt even cost a crippling amount. An extra 3-5 million a year in the draft would do wonders for us.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 03:10 PM) I thought the discussion started with how well (or not) KW and Ozzie were doing. The only way to improve in this area would be to change one of them. My apologies if this wasn't the discussion you were having. People jumped to conclusions because of the thread title, and there were some legit concerns stating if the team fell out due to not having a big bat because Ozzie wanted flexibility and KW didnt make a move because he let Ozzie control him, but no, for the most part this thread has been about the Sox improving overall. Some posters have continually not understood that since the beginning of the thread because they got caught up with the title too much and not the content. And sorry if I pissed anyone off, it became very frustrating having to retype what I was saying every other page because people werent actually reading it.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 03:07 PM) Has anyone in any division been in the top two every year for the past five years? I'm not sure that is realistic given the incidence of injury in this sport. I just said that an occasional outlier due to injury is acceptable, but a team with our resources in our division should have top 2 talent year in and year out.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 03:05 PM) I don't think your over exaggeration is the point. The point is that the management combo is doing a very good job with what they have and they have been one of the best in baseball. The call for their firings is a little over the top giving thier relative success. IM NOT CALLING FOR FIRINGS!! Ive never said that!!!!! Im calling for improvement, change in parts of the organization that have sucked for years!

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 02:59 PM) You're comparing the Phillies and the Marlins and not noting that 1 team has a payroll of $140 million while the other has a payroll of $57 million (up from $14 million as recently as 2006)? That's as fair as comparing the Yankees and White Sox and saying that the Yankees are clearly the better franchise because they've won a world series this decade and have a lot more division titles and postseason appearances. Which proves my point in how much a good f***ing farm system can do for you. You can use it to grow star players, or trade for some stud MLB players.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 02:59 PM) Applying a ridiculous standard of never having any down years isn't any better. You realize according to your own standards, no team in any division of baseball would be good enough, because exactly zero have been in the top two in their division every single year in the last 5 years even. If we were in the AL East I would say its ridiculous, but no, were in the Central against a well run organization in the Twins, two s***s orgs in the Royals and Indians, and a pretty good franchise in the Tigers. With the resources we have we should be at the top 2 every year, with an occasional outlier for injuries and such (thats baseball). But our talent should be as high if not higher than anyone else in the league. If not, thats a major screwup with the resources by the GM.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 02:59 PM) i really don't care who has the better minor league system the only thing that matters is winning at the major league level. One could translate to the other but winning is all that matters. The World Series wins puts them up there of course but again if you look at how awful they were before hand their system was bound to be good with all those years of higher picks. How do people not get this???? The better farm system you have, the more value you can add to your MLB roster!! It is why we cant acquire Fielder, or why we dont have Miguel f***ing Cabrera on our team now. That is a MAJOR impact on your MLB roster. The Phillies continue to draft well because they actually invest in the draft, how do you think the Red Sox do it?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 02:52 PM) Being born in 1973 into a Sox family, I agree 100%. Well, for us young whippersnappers I am sorry for wanting more out of the franchise that I grew up with. Im sorry that I cant blindly see and allow a blatant hole in the franchise and just say "Im okay with it." Im sorry taht I see this franchise in a great opportunity to be a top 7 or 8 team year in and year out with the resources given to it and that it is struggling to be there year in and year out. I know not every season is going to go your way, but we should be top 2 in the central every single year with the resources we have.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 02:45 PM) But the twins are very reluctant to deal their prospects for impact players at the deadline. I remember Morneau expressing his frustration and I'm sure there are a lot of players on that team who wish they would've made moves before the deadline that could've turned some of those division winning years into WS seasons. Personally, I don't want the Twins system. I respect it, but I'd rather have the "go for it" attitude of Kenny than that conservative approach. I havent seen anyone specifically state that they want to be like the Twins, not in this thread atleast (maybe I did miss that). I would love to emulate how they scout, draft, and develop, and combine that with KW's aggressiveness. Is there really a problem with wanting that?

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 02:44 PM) I still would let them have more division tiles without a World Series title. If we are close to them every year but have more World Series trophies, I'll live with that. The ultimate goal is the World Series and as long as we are in the hunt and win a few division titles in the meantime, it works for me. I'm not sure I could handle a run like the Braves had in the 90's (before which they are awful for a decade) where they won the division title every year but couldn't win the World Series. It's just a personal preference but I'll take the title. Getting to the WS is almost as much luck as it is skill. Its the hottest team at the time. Getting to the playoffs requires much more skill than luck, thats why they play 162 regular season games.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 02:41 PM) The Marlins have been ok the last 10 years but not at the Sox level, they've had too many ups and downs. The Phillies have been coming on strong the last few years but weren't very good and probably awful before that. I still think the management combo we have is among the best certainly in the top 5. Oh cmon, the Phillies have been a better franchise, they are identical in playoff appearances, they have made the WS twice, and they have a much better farm system and it can be argued that they have a better MLB roster.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 02:30 PM) I think if you look around the league they are a fairly successful combination as well. Outside of the Yankees and Boston has there been another combo with more wins or titles? Depending on how you look at wins and titles, the Marlins have been successful, Angels have been good, Phillies have been excellent. The Phillies are a great example. They spend alot at the MLB level, but not Boston/NY territory and they invest alot in the draft. Guess what, when they want to trade for Cliff Lee and/or Halladay they can do it, and they have homegrown players like Victorino making a huge difference and they still have MiLB depth to make a trade if they want to. They arent perfect, but they have a damn fine franchise.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 01:39 PM) Your company must be a good one. The companies I've examined in this depression (it's more than a recession) are really treating workers like s*** and implementing pay freezes or cuts for the second straight year. I can't believe a majority of you do not think this thread is kind of embarrassing with the Sox having won 10 in a row at home and still hanging onto first place by a thread. We're in the pennant race entering August again. My company was hit hard by the recession, were 100% relying upon sales to companies that got hit hard. Still, the company has been trying to improve not just sales, but other areas as well. We try to be mroe efficient, add mroe value, etc. One thing I ahve seen in the company is that they havent taken the best approaches to investments as they should have. I see that they shouldve done mroe research and analytics before investing in certain areas (whether that be international expansion or just IT projects0, but the company itself is improving. Does that mean we should forget those very easy to improve areas? No, it would benefit the company widely to get better in those areas at the same time.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 02:25 PM) I think alot of the issue is that many people here have really only known the Sox management with Ozzie and KW. Right or wrong this is their point of view. They haven't lived through other GM's or managers, so it's only natural to do the grass is greener scenario. Many of the same posters have been tearing other GM's apart for recent trades. Most new GM's are unknown quantities and you aren't sure what you will get. It will be interesting on what the opinions will be once KW and Ozzie are gone. Having lived through Sox GM's and mangers since the 70's, I'm only too happy to see KW and Ozzie here. I can't think of a better GM or manager the Sox have had in 35 years. Im not KWs or Ozzies biggest fans, but I know that every manager and GM gets s*** on by their fans, its jsut gonna happen. I just see no problem wanting more as a fan, to want your team to be improving continuously in many facets of the game, to strive for the best MLB team and the best farm system (that then infuses talent to the MLB roster or is traded for MLB talent). I mean, the ROI on a good farm system is so freakin high its ridiculous.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 01:46 PM) It's not embarrassing as much as its hilarious. Like I said above, the cyclical nature of the criticism in this thread is ironic. On one hand you have someone complaining the the team doesnt build from within, on the other its people saying that the team doesnt go for it at the deadline and in the FA market. Its been a really long time since the White Sox have had such consistently aggressive leadership committed to winning. But like the saying goes, find the hottest girl in the world and I'll show you a guy who is sick of her s***. If this is directed at me, then you clearly have not read my posts or I have done a s*** job explaining myself (and for all ive posted in this thread I feel like ive been pretty clear, but I cant be the judge of that). Ive been trying to say that I appreciate we are in first place, and that I like KW. Hes very good at some things, like being aggressive, he evaluates big league players pretty well, dumps prospects that he doesnt foresee a good future in. Ive just been clamoring to invest in an area we have done poor in, one that could really help this team out, one taht adds good young talent and the flexibilty to go after guys like Fielder, Cabrera, Dunn, when they are available and actually get them.

QUOTE (THEWOOD @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 05:01 AM) Sorry Rock, Miami is not a better school than Ohio State. OSU--53 Miami--77 http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews....rankings/page+4 I wouldnt use US News for the rankings, its all about the money in that. Problem is, there really isnt any good ranking system that I have found.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 11:49 AM) I wouldnt be surprised to see the Sox make a deal today or tomorrow for a small contributor. Nothing big. LaRoche would be my guess, Arizona wont ask for a ton, and the other options are just too pricey for what this franchise can afford to give up.

Ive had terrible times at DMVs and Social Security offices. When my family moved to Michigan we went to the Ann Arbor DMV, waited 2 hrs in line, then my parents got their liscenses and my brother who had his liscence for about a month tried to get his, the clerk said that the state laws were different so he wouldnt get his. We were astounded, but stayed polite, asked her what needed to be done and what the reasoning was. She just shrugged it off and told us there was nothing we could do. Next week, we went to another DMV and she was astonished tehy treated us that way and got my brother's liscnence right away and had no idea about any of those laws the other person was spewing to us. The Social Security Office I went to was terrible too, long wait just to get a social security card, and the person was extremely unfriendly. Also, when I first went to them it was a Saturday, and I had checked the tiems they were open online, inlcuding holidays, and when I went there tehy were closed. Yea, that pissed me off because it was 30 mins away from my house. The DMV in Waukegan screwed me over too, I went there to get an Illinois drivers liscence after I moved back here and its a far ride from my house (about 45 mins), and I get there and they want proof of my home address, so I had to go home and get that. Then I come back, get the liscence, and they mess it up. They misspelled my first name, but in a way that you wouldnt notice unless you really looked at it (theres a color line that goes through the letter that makes it hard to see) and so I had to once again go back for that. I have not had good luck at all at those places.

QUOTE (Jenks Heat @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 11:19 AM) He would be traded for nothing just to get rid of the salary relief or traded for a good prospect and cash kind of a bizarro KW deal. Linebrink plus $3M for a B level prospect. Not happening. We'd be lucky to get rid of Linebrink with giving the other team $3 mill, much less getting any value in return. Linebrink and his contract is negative value right now, the cash throw in would make it acceptable for another team. I could see us throwing in the rest of the cash (except the minimum amount) for the remainder of the season, then the team getting him being on the hook for the rest. Still saves us a ton next year (which we could reinvest in the draft )

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 08:41 AM) First of all...the only year we were really "out of it" was 2007. We hovered close to .500 for most of 2009. Secondly...you ask how longn this team will be able to field a first place team without impact players from the draft. My response is...well, they've done it with that format for 4 of the last 6 years, if that's how you're describing them now. They've been in first place at some legit point in the season in 2005, 2006, 2008, and 2010. The only year that they were truly out of it was 2007. Whatever their current scheme is...if you want to describe it as not having impact players from the draft...they've been quite successful for it. You cant just look at the past though, because the core of your team is changing drastically in the next 1 or 2 years. We had young guys who grew into studs, Beurhle, Konerko, etc that have stayed with the team, or FAs like Dye and AJ who really panned out. But with today's FA market, where pickings are really slim I dont see much improvement coming from there, not to mention the prices for them, and with our lack of depth of impact talent at the minor leagues you can very reasonably ask, who is going to play and carry this franchise in the future? Is Beckham, Danks, Floyd, Santos, etc enough? Can a team without Paulie, AJ, etc really survive and keep winning? We are losing a big part of our franchise's core, and there are a few replacements, but the question is are they enough to replace them with? And if they arent, and there arent the right rpiced/available FAs to replace them with, then what are you going to do? Youre back to the Ive got $.50 in hte minors and the other team is demanding a $1.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jul 27, 2010 -> 11:59 PM) Your company needs to improve its shipping/receiving process but has to funnel money from sales to make that work. Do you do it? IMO, the answer is maybe, depending on what the cost is. The club wants to improve its DH situation, but at what cost? Before the season started, it would have been a cash consideration. Now, it's prospects. Either way, it costs something. It's a risk analysis type of situation: do what you think gives you the best chance of a positive return. I think KW has done a phenomenal job of just that. I don't think, over his tenure, he's ever just ignored holes on the team, but he may have chosen not to plug them at the cost of other facets of the organization. If it were as simple as your example makes it sound, "get players to fill holes", and we had a GM who had his thumb up his butt instead, I would totally agree with you. You'd have to be a fool NOT to agree with that. The fact is, though, that it's not that simple: if you plug all holes at any cost, you're going to wind up with a HUGE deficit somewhere in your system. And most of the moves KW has made have been positive, some overwhelmingly so. Very few of his gambles have had a negative impact on the franchise. That could not be said for drafting during his early tenure, but even talent evaluation, of late, has seemingly improved. And, as someone brought up earlier, you have stats like WAR for players where the value of a standard "replacement-level" guy is taken into account. You could (and should) take that into account for GM's and managers as well, IMO. Sure, KW isn't perfect but where does he compare with a standard, replacement-level GM? Do you really think he's worse than any random GM we'd be likely to end up with? As far as Ozzie goes, I could take him or leave him, but I do think he's got positive WAR-esque value too so I'm not rushing off to the scrap heap to make an exchange. Verdict: Ozzie can stay or go, I vote stay with the utmost lukewarmness. But KW does a fine job and should stay on IMO. I would expect my company to trim extra costs in one area and reinvest them in another area which would bring more resources in the future. If the Sox invested $3-5 million more each year in the draft, and another extra million or so on new/better coaches in the minors to help develop, you would be seeing a drastic difference in the minor league output. Think about it, that is like Teahen's salary, if you make smarter choices on your payroll then you can use that money on the draft. And people apparently do not read my posts. I have agreed that I like Kenny, I like alot of what he does, I appreciate that he is aggressive, but he has downsides and I want those to be improved. I want to see organizational changes in philosophy, in development, etc to make this organization the best possible. I dont expect them to reach the heights of the Red Sox or Yanks in terms of payroll, but there is no reason why we shouldnt be drafting as well as the Red Sox because the difference in resouces spent is not terrible to overcome. For all those who say we should be happy with where we are at, I agree with us being in first place, but how long will that last if we dont make a move? How long will this franchise be able to field a first place team without impact players from the draft? Do you really want to go from fringe all-star team to a team out of it like '07 and '09? We are in a unique situation in the Central, where we can compete every single year because we dont have the albatross' of the Yanks and Red Sox. We spend the amount of resources necessary each year to be able to compete in our division, yet we dont do it consistently. We need to reevaluate and reinivest in our weaker areas to make this franchise strong not only short term, but long term.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 27, 2010 -> 11:37 PM) In my softball league tonight, I ended up ruining my pitchers perfect game when I made a throwing error at 3rd base. I really f***in suck at life. Dont worry, you just prevented another perfect game from being recorded in just a ridiculous year.

Watched a few more Louie episodes, just fantastic writing. Really liking that show.

Apparently people think its bad for a team to improve in areas in which they are lacking and that could really help the team. The company I work for does a lot of things well, and in some areas excellent. Does that mean the company should overlook some areas that would help the business overall because the other areas are doing well in the business? No, not at all. The organization should be continually trying to improve all facets, even if they are doing well in some of them.