witesoxfan

I was surprised to see that Joe Cool hadn't made a post about this...

QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 06:29 PM) Would you be satisfied with Quentin in Left, Rios in CF, and Andruw Jones in Right? That is not only a decent defensive outfield, but completes a very good team defense, with Carlos being the only weak link. You don't have to ask me who I'd have lead off in that scenario. I think you know the answer. No. Andruw Jones didn't play full time last year with the Sox because he is too fragile at this point in his career to play everyday. Once he did start swinging the bat everyday for about 2-3 weeks, his bat went ice cold. His OPS was around like 1.000 after April, and it ended up at like .750 after May because of a minor injury and him simply cooling down. I do really like Jones, and he would be a great backup for the Sox if they were to somehow acquire Curtis Granderson; he'd be a good backup regardless of whether or not they brought in Granderson. I still don't see that as a possibility though, because I think the Angels are going to sign Crawford, and that some other team would outbid the Sox for Granderson (or Swisher).

QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 06:26 PM) I'm still hoping that the Yankees spend big on Crawford. That should motivate them to dump Granderson and his contract. The Sox could then make an effort to acquire him, if they could dump Pierre and Teahen, and their salaries, which would pay for Granderson. There is your new leadoff hitter, and centerfielder. However, I'd settle for any good defensive outfielder, with a decent bat. I just don't like an outfield of Pierre, Rios and Quentin. Carlos is fine in Left, with Rios and a good glove roaming the rest of the outfield. Who are you going to play in place of Granderson against left handed pitching? Surely you don't want a guy who has put up a career line of .215/.274/.346/.621 against lefties leading off against Francisco Liriano. And who are you going to give up to acquire Granderson anyways? It's not as if the Yankees are going to give him away to the first team that calls. And how do you intend to get any value at all out of Pierre and Teahen? Pierre is a mediocre hitter who can get on base but isn't the kind of guy a team is going to give up much more than two AAAA pitchers for, and Teahen is frankly awful and the Sox would struggle to find takers for him even if they ate half of his contract. Beyond any of that, any player who has a good bat and can play a good CF is immediately worth about $8-10 million on the open market, or a team gets lucky (like the Giants with Andres Torres). That's why Juan Pierre got the contract he did and why Torii Hunter got almost $20 million a year. Guys who can hit and play a premium defensive position get paid. Again, it's simple on paper but much, much more complicated when actually trying to maneuver the pieces into place.

QUOTE (spiderman @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 06:23 PM) Now that the White Sox are probably done making in the free agent market, how do see Williams addressing the bullpen? It's probably not likely that they add a closer with Sale, Thornton and Santos probably the in-house candidates, but they probably will need to add 2 more decent arms to the bullpen for next season, and Williams has already mentioned being "creative" in a trade. What do you think he's got on mind? Quentin? If he moves him, how do they fill that hole? I could see him trying to acquire a top notch reliever, such as Heath Bell, or perhaps taking on a guy like Francisco Rodriguez (assuming the Mets eat some of his salary). I also don't think he's going to move Quentin. He's stated that he's pretty much done moving guys off the major league roster unless something crazy comes up.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 06:18 PM) I agree. The Sox don't need to acquire a lead off hitter. My argument starts with the need to improve the outfield defense, while retaining Quentin, who no longer has the option to be the DH. If Quentin is in the outfield, he should be in Left. Then you need a better outfielder to play RF, or move Rios to RF, and play a better fielder in CF. Pierre has no place in that scenario. However, if the outfield addition can provide some offensive production, then you have the luxury of Rios leading off. That is how I got there. What is your suggestion? My suggestion would be to leave it as is and not make it so complicated. You are going to be hard-pressed to find a better defensive arrangement than Pierre-Rios-Quentin. Pierre was fantastic defensively last year, Rios was good, but not great, and Quentin was awful. The only way logical way you can improve that is to get rid of Quentin, because even if you move him to LF, he's still in the outfield, and he's still bad (and I have a hunch, though it may be incorrect, that most flyballs go to left and left center, so you are going to want the superior defender out there anyways)

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2010 -> 08:28 AM) Kevin Correia was pretty bad last year, pitched 145 innings, went 10-10 with a 5.40 ERA pitching in Petco, and he just got a 2 year, $8 million deal. Garcia's likely looking at 2+ years and >$12 million based on that scale. It's also the Pirates making the offer. Even with lesser free agents, I think they generally will have to spend more money. Beyond that, this is still early in the offseason, so they can still afford to pick and choose their best offer. Correia also put up a 3.91 ERA, even if it was PetCo influenced, in 2009, so he's had semi-recent success. Finally, Correia has actually made quite a few starts over the past 2 years, and is a generally durable pitcher. Freddy Garcia made more major league starts last year than he did the previous 3 years combined. There is a huge durability issue with regard to Garcia. I would say that, all things considered, Garcia is going to be lucky if he can get 2/$8 because I don't think teams are going to want to commit 2 years to him, which will reduce their price per year with him. Instead, they'd prefer to take a chance on him for 1 year, so I think that's probably his best option. I think Freddy can get 1 year, $5 mill or so from a team.

QUOTE (Cali @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 05:49 PM) Am I missing something with Byrdak? I keep seeing people mention him and as far as I can tell he's not a member of the White Sox as of right now..... It was mentioned briefly a while back ago that the Sox were looking at him, so many of us have just assumed that he or someone like Byrdak will be signed in the near future to act as the 2nd lefty out of the pen (and I say 2nd because it's also assumed that one of Sale and Thornton will be closing)

QUOTE (chunk23 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 05:44 PM) Heyman is notorious for being a mouthpiece for agents. There's a reason the 7 year teams are "mystery". Hint: they don't exist. I don't understand why the Padres traded for Bartlett, I figured the AGon trade was a white flag. Looks like a directionless team to me. Kyle Blanks is OK. Not as good as Adrian Gonzalez, but OK. Besides that, they have basically built their team around pitching and defense. They realize that it's going to be damn near impossible to score runs in that stadium, so instead they are going to try and pitch and field their way to a championship. He has fallen off the cliff defensively the past couple years, but he has the reputation of being a good fielding shortstop, so they are hoping he can regain some of that.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 05:38 PM) And those guys play C, 1B and DH. How in the hell do you put together a good offense on a limited budget without having slow guys at those positions? We could remove Pierre from this lineup and replace him with a player of average speed and we'd still have on the whole above average speed. You put together a team of 9 fast guys and watch them score 675 runs. s*** this offense on average is quicker than the '05 World Series team and probably a much more potent lineup. And there is actually depth offensively too, so long as Williams doesn't trade it all away. Like, someone could get injured and be out a month and the Sox wouldn't be totally fistf***ed and be forced to put Andy Gonzalez or Luis Terrero into the lineup. It's kind of a nice feeling. At this point, he should seriously just sign some relief pitcher, along with Byrdak, and not trade any of the other pieces the Sox have. Go into the year with Thornton, Santos, Sale, Pena, dude, Byrdak, and Infante, and if it works, then great, and if not, make changes come June or July. That seriously doesn't look like a bullpen that is going to kill the Sox, especially with the rotation and lineup they have. (oh, just don't make "dude" Bobby Jenks)

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 05:33 PM) Rays trade Bartlett to Padres. Who is their SS? Beckham? Brignac? Tim Beckham hit .256/.346/.359/.705 in High-A ball last year. I have a feeling it's not him. It's going to be Brignac.

QUOTE (Cali @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 05:10 PM) I'm curious to see if Jones could make the pen. I thought I remembered hearing he had some electric stuff, at least in '09 when he was working out of the pen I don't think the Sox view him as a starting pitcher long-term, and instead I think he was starting this year more to get him more innings so he can refine his pitches a bit better. It's harder to do that out of the bullpen. I also think, if all the hype about him is true, that he could be a mid-season call-up. Get him a little bit of experience against some more advanced hitters.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 04:38 PM) I don't know about that. Who would lead off? Who would steal bases? Pierre might not as good as he used to be defensively, but I think he's still way better than Quentin. Plus we already have enough slowness in the lineup with Dunn and SLOWnerko. It would be like 06-08 again when everybody was talking about how much we need speed. The only 3 slow players within the Sox lineup are Dunn, Konerko, and Pierzynski, and Dunn isn't as slow as you think. Quentin isn't as fast as he used to be due to the number of injuries he has accumulated, but he can run a little bit still. This isn't the White Sox lineup from 2006 that had Konerko, Thome, Dye, Crede, and Pierzynski in it.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 05:05 PM) Dayton Moore finally gets his guy - Jeff Francouer. My god, it's hilarious. I hope he signs him to a contract extension halfway through his 1 WAR campaign.

all we are saying is give peace a chance 30 years, RIP John

QUOTE (bulokis @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 04:15 PM) Getting Choo from the Indians would be an amazing pick up but it will not happen. It would also cost Beckham, Viciedo, and Mitchell. The Indians have no pressing need to deal Shin Soo Choo, and they certainly have no need to deal him within the division. It'd be amazing to pick up Joe Mauer and Miguel Cabrera too, contracts and all, but I can put fantasies aside for realities.

The Pirates were willing to bring in Chris Snyder because he can actually handle the catching position effectively. Ryan Doumit is not a good defensive catcher. Beyond that, he's really not that good offensively, having only 2 seasons of being an above average offensive player. Someone else can trade for Ryan Doumit and his black, beady eyes.

QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 04:07 PM) Wow I didn't hear that. So Jackson's in, Freddy gone? I thought we dumped Jackson. uhh, no

QUOTE (quickman @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 03:36 PM) Pretty much at least ours. My point whether I like prospects or not, is this guy is not needed, and we have needs. Now if he can throw out of the pen or start every fifth day then I would certainly hold onto him at least until he blows out his shoulder or peters out in triple A like most of the sox prospects. This team and KW in particular is not like other teams. They are not built on prospects or from the inside. Maybe thats why they have a lousy minor league system. Ryan Howard was not needed in January of either 2004 or 2005 for the Phillies. They've been a lot better because they hung onto him. My point isn't that Viciedo is going to become Ryan Howard or that the Sox are going to trade Adam Dunn for Grindy McGritterson who runs into outfield walls next offseason, but merely that the Sox shouldn't trade him just because they don't have a need right now. They could certainly use his bat off the bench (even if he has to pretend to play defense in LF and RF), they could most definitely have an injury down the line, and they may have a greater need arise later in the year that the Sox haven't seen yet, or a player become available that is far too cheap to pass up. There are several uses for Dayan Viciedo, and just because that means he isn't starting doesn't somehow take away from his value.

I think, if anything, this proves that Jerry Reinsdorf isn't the cold-hearted business man that most people view him as, and the White Sox aren't in general. They are perhaps naive in resigning Konerko to the deal they did, because it assumes that he will continue being a similar player to that of the Paul Konerko from 2000-2010. And they are perhaps making both a financially and value-based irresponsible move, because Konerko's contract is worth more than anything Derrek Lee is going to get on the open market, they lose out on 2 draft picks, and they lose out on the $4 mill or whatever the difference may be between Lee and Konerko's deals. This is a move made for both the quality of the player, the loyalty that Reinsdorf has for Konerko, and for the public relations of the Chicago White Sox. With regards to his quality, I think it's fairly safe to say that Paul Konerko is still a good hitter. I strongly doubt he's a .900+ OPS guy going forward, but he's a much better than average hitter, and I don't see that suddenly falling off the face of the planet. Beyond that, in the final year of his deal, he is being paid such a reasonable amount that it may make sense to begin to develop a 1B that year while he is still playing, which would significantly cut into his playing time - it really wouldn't surprise me to see Konerko end up with fewer than 400 PAs in 2013. There is a level of loyalty that Reinsdorf shows to Konerko, and a lot of that has to do with Konerko being a long-time member of this organization, it has to do with him living near Reinsdorf in Arizona, and it has to do with him being a huge part in delivering the first World Series title in Chicago since World War I. There has always been a great deal of loyalty from Reinsdorf towards veteran players who have been very important figures in White Sox history, and those that show their loyalty towards the Sox will be shown that loyalty right back. It sends a message to those who play for the White Sox right now and the rest of the players in the league that, if you want to be a member of the Chicago White Sox, you will be, and you will be paid fairly. And, if you perform well during your tenure with the Chicago White Sox and act as a diplomat for the team, you will be rewarded with another contract, even if you may be a little older, and it may be above what you are actually worth. Beyond that, and I think one of the most important aspects of this move, is the move with regard to the average fan of the Chicago White Sox. I don't think you will find any disagreement amongst the members of the front office that the move the Sox should have made, to maximize their value, would have been to bring in Derrek Lee, use the left over funds to sign a reliever, let Konerko walk and collect the two draft picks. What happens though when Paul Konerko goes to Arizona and hits 40 homers? And Derrek Lee hits .220 halfway through May and then goes down with a wrist injury? And the reliever does his best Scott Linebrink impression? And the two draft picks bust? All of that is not likely to happen, but it's also not outside the realm of possibility. If that occurs, what happens to the average fan? Do you not believe that there will be some vehement dissidence towards the Chicago White Sox organization as a whole? I am not trying to suggest that Paul Konerko is somehow the cause of the Nostradamian end of the world prophecies, merely that his presence means a lot to White Sox fans. I do not believe that if Konerko struggles, there would be as much of an outrage by the fan base. That needs to be taken into consideration as well. --- In the end, I'm not going to pretend that I wanted Konerko back. As an economics student, I understand that you should try and maximize your intrinsic value, and I believed that signing Derrek Lee, using the excess money and signing a reliever, and gaining two draft picks was worth more than Paul Konerko. Some more accomplished businessmen than I disagreed. I'm not hurt or upset by the decision, and in fact can't disagree with it. It's still fairly likely that Paul Konerko will hit 75 homers over the next 3 years, and it's certainly possible that he will hit 100. He will get his 2000th hit, he will score his 1000th run, he will play in his 2000th game and it's entirely possible that he will get his 10th career stolen base and 10th career triple. The basic premise is that Paul Konerko has been a great player and almost certainly should continue to be a good player, and the White Sox have him for 3 more years. (BTW, I don't believe it is a coincidence that the DBacks offered a deal that was 3/$30, and the value of Konerko's deal, excluding the deferred money, is 3/$30.5)

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 02:42 PM) After the Konerko signing our team payroll stands at $104.55M. Still need to sign Danks, Pena, Quentin, Beckham, Morel, Sale, New Bullpen Arm(s). I think whats very interesting is that this going for it attitude is defiantly for 2011 and 2012. Sox also have 81.5M committed to 2012, that number drops to 38 for 2013 so the window of opportunity for this core of players is this year and next. No, I'm pretty sure that their attitude is aimed towards 2011 and 2012, not against it. I normally don't care about grammar and spelling, but when you misspell a word (definitely) so badly that you actually create a word that has a totally opposite meaning (defiantly), then something needs to be said. So in the future - definitely = definitely; defiantly ≠ definitely

I don't think you trade Viciedo yet, unless the return is simply too good to pass up. Viciedo has crazy power and a lightning quick bat, and he is still very, very young. Beyond that, I think that you can go into the year with some cheap, scrap-heap free agent signings for the bullpen and hope that it works out. If it doesn't, and you don't get anything from the minors, then you can use a guy like Viciedo (or perhaps any others that have stepped up) in a trade for the relievers.

FWIW, I still don't believe this means the end of Viciedo in a White Sox uniform. Keep him around, use him as a 1B/3B/LF/RF/DH guy, which allows Dunn to sit against tough lefties, and I think you can probably get him around 200-250 plate appearances a year at the MLB level. If you want him in the minors still, that's fine too, because it's not like he's got a well-rounded game either. Beyond that, I think having Viciedo at mid-season would work much better for the Sox in terms of a trade anyways, because they'll have a much better idea of what is wrong with the team at that point in time. And, if the absolute worst comes to worst, the Sox can then figure out a spot for Viciedo in the lineup after hey trade away some of the costly veterans.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 7, 2010 -> 12:19 AM) The 5 week layoff is definitely to the advantage of Auburn, not necessarily because of Oregon falling out of sync but simply because they get to prepare for Oregon's pace for 5 weeks. If this game was Saturday, I would be very confident in Oregon. Even still, I think Auburn is completely overrated and Oregon may wear them down anyways. They have 5 weeks to prepare for that pace, but is any amount of time enough to prepare for the number of weapons that Oregon has? The only team that has been able to do anything to slow that offense down was Cal, and they have a former NFL defensive coordinator running that defense (and, BTW, Cal has the #1 defense in the Pac-10 according to YPG, and the 20th ranked defense in the entire country). I think Oregon has a much easier time trying to deal with Cam Newton. I'm not going to suddenly say he's weak or anything like that, but they have 5 weeks to try and slow down 5 players, whereas Auburn has 5 weeks to try to slow down like 5 players. I think there is a huge, huge difference. Perhaps Cam Newton has an effect on this game because he makes a comeback, but really, I think this game comes down to whether or not Auburn's defense can slow down Oregon's offensive attack. If they can, then Auburn probably wins, and if not, then Oregon probably wins.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2010 -> 05:36 PM) Yeah, that's a good one. Thanks, I knew I had to be missing someone. Hasn't Lewis played in a 3-4 most of this decade? I mean, I'm going to argue that Ray Lewis is superior to Brian Urlacher no matter what scheme you want to use, I'm more or less just saying.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 01:40 AM) Wow so Pena is getting 1 year 10 M. I guess that good in terms of length but are you seriously paying a 1B that hit .197 with 28 HR about 4M less than what Dunn got and about 12M less than what Paulie was getting. Wow, Id have to say I defiantly saw something like 6-7M for Pena with an option for $10M on the back end. Not sure how defiant that really is, considering quite a few people predicted around the same value...mmmmk.