witesoxfan

My biggest problem with Ozzie's rant is that he said that the Sox finished in 3rd 3 times when Thome was here, as if it was Thome's fault. And now without Thome, the Sox are in 2nd, again, as if Thome moving on was the spark that allowed them to be a 2nd place club. He doesn't mention that in 2006, the team won 90 games and, if not for a complete second half meltdown by the pitching staff and Ozzie continually putting a player in CF who quite clearly could not play CF, that team could have won the division. And that everyone in 2007 sucked, but that Thome was actually pretty good. And that in 2009, the team was in the race until late August, when they went 2-8 on a 10 game road trip against Boston, New York, and Minnesota, because they had a hole at the back end of the rotation and that the bullpen fell apart (once again). Thome was never the problem. Obviously, he can't suggest that he wants Thome, because he'd lose the team and whatever else. But telling the fans to f*** off and stop watching really isn't good either.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 02:47 PM) There's no way Hudson is this good. 10 K to 0 BB? That translates to the NL being no better than the International League at this point. How's John Ely doing? Stop rushing to judgments after 4 starts. If you did that after his first four starts, everyone would love the trade. Except that the National League is far better than the International League, and you know that. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Dan Hudson is as good as he's been in his 4 starts with the Diamondbacks, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that Jackson is going to be as good as he has been in 3 starts with the White Sox either. I also don't think it's fair to compare John Ely and Dan Hudson. I never thought that Ely would be stick. Right handers whose fastballs can't break 90 MPH usually don't fair well, unless they're throwing knuckleballs. Dan Hudson has averaged 93 MPH in his time in the majors, both last year and this year, so he actually has some velocity to work with to keep hitters honest. Personally, I think Williams should have taken your advice about not rushing to judgment after 4 starts. Hudson's track record in the minors suggested he was going to be a better pitcher than the mediocrity he'd thrown with the White Sox, and Williams panicked and traded him for Edwin Jackson. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 05:43 PM) The best examples ever of that have to be Josh Fogg and Kip Wells. Except that, again, Dan Hudson put up far better numbers than either of them. Wells is about the only one who you can compare to Hudson in regards to stuff, and he never put up the results that Hudson did in the minors (partly because the Sox rushed the hell out of him).

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 02:42 PM) Like eh..what...maybe two games better? More urine. Yawn. QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 04:00 PM) There are more than a few games where actually having a DH instead of Kotsay and Jones would have helped the Sox out bigtime. Instead of being 9 under and 9.5 back, it's very realistic to think they would have only been 7 under and 7.5 back. That's all I was trying to suggest Thome would improve the team by. It could have realistically been more. --- I do love how you like to take evidence and reasonably sound arguments and throw them aside as "urine," yet you can't make a sound and justifiable argument in regards to basically anything. Why is that?

"Well, there's only one thing left to do." "What's that?" "Win the whole.f***in.thing."

QUOTE (IceCreamPants @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 02:10 PM) Dont You!? Its so appetizing watching them go into the mouths of those who are hungry for a long glistening weiner. I like to smear things on my weiners, and THEN eat them.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 01:49 PM) Well, Rizzo was apparently wanting Jackson for Adam Dunn, so I would have to say that's a pretty big bat, and that was when Jackson was pitching like s*** in the NL West. Now that he is dominating in the AL, why should I have reason to believe he still wouldn't have just as much value? Sure, he is coming for 2 months less, but he is also pitching exponentially better. $8M for a start of his caliber with Detroit and with us now is a bargin. There is value there. There have been several reports that have been published by a number of different people that state that Rizzo didn't want Jackson and that the Sox were 3rd in the Dunn race, and that by the end of July, the Sox weren't even interested in Dunn anymore. Rizzo wouldn't come down from Beckham. I'm also not saying he doesn't have value, but you have to consider what type of hitter he can truly bring in. It would also almost certainly be a trade similar to the Garland trade of trading for a player with 1 year left on his deal. Another trade with the Angels, this time for Abreu, could be a possibility. I'm not sure Williams ever did attempt to trade Jackson again. I'm pretty sure Williams traded for Jackson with full intention to keep him. You are looking at this in a vacuum, where one #63 rated prospect is perfectly equal to another, and they have to be better than the #64 and have to be worse than #62. That's quite obviously not the case. Aaron Poreda had a "pedigree" simply because he was a 1st round pick. He was also left handed and could throw the ball pretty hard. I honestly don't remember being all that enamored with him in the first place (because I wanted the Sox to pick Porcello, and I didn't like the Poreda pick at all), and I realized that he looked like he might be a decent prospect. He didn't have off the charts peripherals by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't seem to recall him ever really developing a good breaking pitch (which was vital to him performing in the big leagues). It doesn't look like he ever did. Daniel Hudson was a 5th round pick, so he didn't have the "pedigree" that Poreda did. He was also right handed, and there were several big shot writers who questioned his stuff, though when I saw him pitch, I saw that he had good velocity and movement on his pitches. The biggest question for Hudson has always been his performance against good left handed hitters. Dan Hudson also pitched at 5 levels last year, and, though the levels of success varied, he was still very successful at each stop. So, no, just because Aaron Poreda was the #2 prospect and was higher rated than Hudson, I don't have to think he was as big of a prospect. I had no problem with the Sox dealing Poreda when they did, but I would have been upset had they dealt Hudson. Beyond that, you have to look at the return these guys acquired. When Poreda was dealt, it was for a potential Cy Young winning pitcher who was under team control for another 3 seasons (4 if you include the option year), and he wasn't even the centerpiece of the deal. When Hudson was dealt, he was traded for a starter who had an ERA of 5 in the NL who had 1 year in his entire career with an ERA below 4 and, though his peripherals improved in that year, there was still plenty of reason to believe that he was lucky to keep his ERA that low, and on top of that, the pitcher is only locked up for 1 more year. --- I can use foresight and sound reasoning to look at the numbers and realize that it's entirely possible that the Sox could deal one of these 5 starters in the offseason, but that only leaves another hole on the 25-man roster that needs to be filled. In the meantime, I can see that the Sox have about $88 million tied up between 14 players and I realize that is also a problem. I can also look and realize that there is not a whole lot on the farm that can be dealt for good value at the moment. Of the White Sox top 10 prospects going into the season according to BA, Brent Morel is probably the player who has improved his value. Even he is considered to be just a good defensive 3Bman who will be an average at best offensive 3Bman, and though that has value, it's not the centerpiece of a deal to acquire a big bat. The Sox have quite a few holes to fill next season, not much money to work with, and not a ton of trading chips to deal. Because of that, I felt that Dan Hudson was going to be a big part of the transition period for the White Sox in the next 2-3 years while the Sox filled their other holes with the money and any other remaining chips they had to deal. Instead, I feel that Williams made a very short-sighted deal in trading Dan Hudson for Edwin Jackson, and because of that move, it's going to be much more difficult for the White Sox to fill out their roster with a competitive team next year, and I imagine the Sox will have another small sell-off, similar to what they did before the 2009 season when they dealt Swisher and Vazquez.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 10:00 AM) We should attack their minds. Maybe slip some LSD in their gatorade. Lets see Thome hit a homer off Thronton when Thome is seeing pink bunnies doing dances on the field. f*** that, we don't need Liriano no-hitting us

I like to pphis my pants. It's all warm and squishy, just like sitting in a bean bag chair!

QUOTE (J.Reedfan8 @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 04:29 PM) I think Favre is in the middle to be honest. He isn't near as bad as he was when he was with the Jets (or 05 GB) and he won't be near as good as he was with the Vikings last season. If he gives them even half of last year's numbers, I'm sure the Vikings will happily take that. I see a pattern though from Favre the last few years... 06- 56.0% Completion, 3,885 yards, 18-18 TD:INT 07- 66.5% Completion, 4,155 yards, 28-15 TD:INT 08- 65.7% Completion, 3,472 yards, 22-22 TD:INT 09- 68.4% Completion, 4,202 yards, 33-7 TD:INT 10- ??? He's had an average year followed by a good year the following season. So judging by that, I expect an average year for the 41 year old this comming season. Most of Favre's struggles in New York came in the final 5 games when his arm was torn to shreds. In those final 5 games, he threw 2 touchdowns, 9 picks, had a completion percentage of 56%, Y/A of 5.8, and a QB rating of 55.2. He had been pretty phenomenal up to that point in the season. He had surgery on his arm in the offseason, was throwing rockets again, and had his best season ever with Minnesota.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 11:29 AM) If we trade Jackson for a big bat this offseason, then it's essentially the same as trading Hudson for that big bat. I don't see why trading FOR Jackson was dumb, and then trading AWAY Jackson is dumb. Unless of course you are trying to say that trading away Hudson for ANY bat would be a bad idea, in which case I disagree with that too. And then the Sox are left with a hole at the end of the rotation. Williams' MO pretty much throughout the entirety of his career is that if he trades pitching, he's getting pitching back. Garland for Cabrera is about the only deal I can think of where that wasn't the case. Beyond that, which big bat is Edwin Jackson going to net you? He's only got one year left on his contract at $8 mill, he may not net you draft picks at the end of the year, and he's been quite mediocre throughout the entirety of his career. That doesn't sound like an overly valuable asset. If you don't trade Hudson, you don't have an additional $7.5 mill tied up in payroll, and you have cost certainty beyond 2011 too (in fact, you have cost certainty until like 2016). Beyond that, many of us believe that Hudson was more valuable than Jackson, because he can virtually replicate what Jackson does on the mound AND he is cheaper AND he is controlled for longer. In no world was Aaron Poreda a top prospect. He can throw like 95 from the left side, but that's about it. There were concerns about his breaking and offspeed pitches, and he has no control of his stuff whatsoever. Dexter Carter has been terrible again this year, and Adam Russell is AAA fodder. Clayton Richard is benefitting heavily from throwing in the NL at Petco Park, and that was observed when, even though his ERA was half a run lower in the NL, his ERA+ was higher during his time with the White Sox last year. None of those guys looked like they would be successful starting pitchers. If anything, I thought Richard was going to be a dynamite reliever but that he didn't have what it took to become a good starter in the AL. I would make that trade again in a heartbeat.

I don't remember where I read it, but the average football game has like less than 20 minutes of actual action, and most shots from the camera are on the huddles, coaches, fans, and players on the sideline.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 04:14 PM) Maybe he would have been that 6th starter when Peavy wasn't looking so CY and everyone thought MB was now washed up. Floyd looked like a BP pitcher and Danks had bad luck. From the sounds of it, you want me to find you a few games where having Jim Thome in the lineup would have made a difference. In these games, there will have been a save situation involved and the DH (mostly looking at Kotsay, but Jones playing when he shouldn't have works too) will have sputtered. Also, I'm not counting games in which a left handed pitcher started because Thome won't start against lefties (even though we know he can still hit them). April 7 - Kotsay DHed and went 0 for 3 with a walk. April 8 - Juan Pierre DHed and went 2-5 with a walk. Wee! Too bad Andruw Jones, playing CF (with Rios playing LF) went 0-3 with a walk and HBP. I suppose getting on base twice is nice, so you don't have to count this one. April 10 - Baker shut down the Sox. Konerko went 1-4, Kotsay went 1-4. Both singles. Thome got on base for Minnesota, and Kubel hit a 2-run homer. April 17 - Juan Pierre DHed and went 0-4. Andruw Jones played LF in his place and went 1-4. Coincidentally, Thome has a .385/.515/.769/1.284 line against Westbrook. April 28 - The Sox hit Harden around pretty well, but the Rangers hit Peavy better. Might have been a different outcome if the Sox don't have Konerko/Kotsay going 0-7 with a HBP (Konerko got hit). May 12 - Mark Kotsay DHed and went 0-4. Thome career against Pavano - .269/.429/.423/.852 June 1 - Harden was mediocre again, and the Sox lost 9-6. I mention this one only because it would appear as though everyone and their mother was hitting Harden...except Kotsay of course, who went 0-5. There are 7 games, and those aren't including times when he could have played against a weak lefty or came up and had a big pinch hitting appearance. If Thome can affect 2 of those, it makes a difference. I would say it's very, very reasonable he could have. So while Thome couldn't have made up for the struggles of Peavy and Floyd, he could have made the situation a hell of a lot better.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 08:58 AM) I still think I'd claim him if I were the Giants. Pick your OF: Manny Ramirez or Jose Guillen. In that case, it would be pick who plays RF: Pat Burrell or Manny Ramirez. Jose Guillen has atleast played RF in his career. I have my doubts about the Giants interest. I would say there is a pretty good chance he clears. There are a few teams I could see having interest in claiming him - Cincinnati, Atlanta, San Francisco if they don't care about defense, and maybe San Diego (but their team is predicated on pitching and defense to the extreme, so I don't know that they'd want to mess up their defensive team by acquiring Manny), but other than that, I don't see many others who would have interest. In the AL, there are virtually no teams who have a claim before the Sox who I could see having interest. LAA, Detroit, and Toronto are all well out of the race and there's no reason for a team who is worse than that to be claiming him. I would say it's very possible Manny still ends up on the Sox. I'm still not going to get my hopes up though.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 11:43 PM) This is a 6 out of 10 for me on the frustration scale. The Sunday game after the ASB, where Jenks blew it, was a 10 out of 10. Imagine being at the Sunday game after the ASB. I expected the Sox to blow this somehow. It's like every single game against Minnesota is scripted, and it's like the Sox are playing baseball like it's April and May again, and the Twins are playing like the Sox were in June and July. It's hard to beat a team that is playing that well. (but it's not impossible)

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 04:00 PM) Joe Torre would lift his hand as well, except its weighed down by all those rings. And boogers

There are more than a few games where actually having a DH instead of Kotsay and Jones would have helped the Sox out bigtime. Instead of being 9 under and 9.5 back, it's very realistic to think they would have only been 7 under and 7.5 back.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 03:40 PM) Say what now? Old man had one of his best seasons at age 40 last year. Dude's legacy only grew in my mind. Seriously. Best QB rating, completion percentage, and Y/A in his career, and the fewest INTs he's ever thrown in a full season. It was probably the best season of his career. There were honestly times during the Packers years where I thought he was one of the most overrated QBs in the history of the game. And then he went and did that, and totally redeemed himself.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 03:47 PM) Are there even 5 managers better than Ozzie? I don't think so. Just off the top of my head, I'd take Scioscia, Gardenhire, Francona, Maddon, and Charlie Manuel over him. There are a few others that are debatable as well. Ozzie Guillen has his perks, such as motivating his team and sticking with players through struggles, but he has flaws too. All managers do.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 02:49 PM) It's relevant because we praise them as being the greatest team in the history of baseball yet its really just been because of good player development and not some genius gm. The heart of our team has been built on fleecing other teams in trades and signing cubans. Why doesn't that get any credit? Not to mention the fact that up until the last year or 2, our drafting and minor leagues were in shambles and have received much more attention and are on the right track. It does get credit. But recently, what moves has Williams made in which he has fleeced another organization? For what it's worth, I've seen people give a ton of credit to Williams for acquiring Peavy and Rios, and then people have backtracked on crediting him for Peavy. People loved him for getting Danks and Floyd. People loved the Quentin deal. They have gotten credit for the moves they've made. Beyond that, the drafting and minor league system are still in shambles. There are more legitimate prospects than 0; that doesn't mean they should be praised. To acquire Edwin Jackson, Williams had to trade the #3 and #8 prospect in the system (according to BA). The #1 prospect was injured in Spring Training. The #2 prospect has struggled mightily in AAA and may force the White Sox into looking into resigning Pierzynski or picking up Castro's option and making him the full time catcher. Chris Sale has been great in the minors and the majors, but he's going to have to prove to be an option in the rotation before he can be considered a top prospect (which I don't fear at all). A position to compete would suggest that they've been in the thick of the race and playing meaningful games late into the season. They've done that in 8 of the past 10 years, and only twice - in 2001 and 2008 - were they eliminated. They still may be in 2010. For my own sake, I sure as hell hope they are. Just because they haven't won anything in the postseason since 2002 (or 1991 if you only want to include World Championships) doesn't take away from their regular season accomplishments. From everything you've read on here about how well these teams have been set up for the postseason, the Sox have won the most World Series rings among those teams that haven't made it to the playoffs. In my mind, they were a lock to win it in 2003, and they very well could have won it in 2006 and last year too had they made it; they didn't, so it was pointless to even argue. I get tired of the White Sox organization idolizing the Twins organization. I don't believe, however, that they have, in any way, shape, or form, exaggerated what they've done and accomplished.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 01:12 PM) Over the next three games - I just wanna see us score like 27 runs and only give up 2. I'm not of the hero mindset - I'm more of a "kick some f***ing ass" type of guy. That'd be swell, but it would be a bit problematic if they won 15-0, 12-1, and then lost 1-0. Seeing 3 wins with the Sox scoring 3 runs and the Twins scoring 0 would be just fine by me, and in some ways, probably even sweeter.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 03:17 PM) Let's be real here. The anticipation of what is coming is ALWAYS way cooler than what is going on... regardless of the situation. We're all starved for football while we've watched 118 games of baseball. It was no different when Spring Training rolled around and the Blackhawks were vying for a Stanley Cup. That's definitely true. I was going to state something along the lines of how I hate when people say baseball is boring (it is boring, but there are plenty of things in life that are boring that still provide entertainment, and, to me, baseball is one of them), yet I get jacked up because of Spring Training when really, it's the same as pre-season football. The only major difference between spring training games and preseason football is that in baseball, you can actually see several younger players who have a legitimate shot at contributing significantly down the line, whereas in football, most of those guys don't do jack.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 02:59 PM) What if he could have him on the extreme cheap though? Probably won't be on the extreme cheap, but it will be cheaper than it was before. There will be a few teams that will be interested in signing him.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 01:57 PM) Nothing wrong with admiring an organization that tends to do things right because of a limited budget. Their $97.7 million payroll and $180 mill extension to Mauer this year suggest anything other than a limited budget.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 01:28 PM) How many rings do they have with them? 0, which is awesome. I don't understand how this is relevant, but two. Carlos Gomez is currently playing for the Milwaukee Brewers, and Phillip Humber is playing for the Kansas City Royals. Kevin Mulvey could be pitching for the DBacks too, and is still only 25 (though he doesn't look like he's very good). The Twins obviously dropped the ball on getting a solid return for Santana, but they've made incredible personnel decisions otherwise, and JJ Hardy is still on the Twins, whom they acquired for Carlos Gomez. Teams are prone to making mistakes, even when trading great players. They've apparently gotten over dealing him, and they're doing just fine, considering the Twins have won more divisions without Santana than the Mets have with him. He was the #58 prospect according to BA heading into the season. He was blocked at the MLB level by Joe Mauer, and he put up a line of .241/.280/.345/.625 at AAA Rochester with very little power. His stock was very down. They have been in a position to compete in the playoffs 5 times in the past 8 years, and they have been in competition for the divisional title in 8 of the past 10 years, including this year, which is more than can be said for the Sox. The Sox capitalized in 1 of their 5 playoff appearances in the last 50 years. The Twins have capitalized in 2 of their 10 playoff appearances in the last 50 years.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 01:31 PM) You could probably add the Iguchi homer off Wells and the El Duque bases loaded situation that Marte brought on himself... Who did the White Sox beat that Sunday? I think it was the Indians, yes? I'm pretty sure the Twins were playing the Royals that final weekend. Yeah, the Sox were playing the Indians, but lost 2 of 3 to them. It appeared for all intents and purposes that the Sox had put their tail between their legs and given up. Thankfully, the Twins were busy celebrating their division title without actually clinching it. That old, annoying cliche goes, "It ain't over till it's over."