witesoxfan

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 07:56 AM) I know it doesn't show up in the UZR numbers and such...But I'll go to my grave saying that if Mack didn't play CF from June 1 on, we'd have won that division. That entire team took one giant step backwards in the second half. The offense went from an .829 OPS in the first half to a .778 in the second, the starter's ERA went from 4.60 to 4.71, and the relievers ERA went from 4.06 to 5.14. There are a lot of reasons that '06 team failed, and Mackowiak's defense in CF was just one of them.

Greinke in his career against the Sox - 4.20 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, .266/.314/.446/.760 line against him. Sox hit him the best of all the AL Central teams, and only the Orioles (.882 OPS in 156 PAs, that's crazy!), Angels, Yankees, and Rays hit him better against those whom he has faced atleast 7 times in some manner. Last year he was 2-2 with a 2.31 ERA, 1.06 WHIP, .246/.279/.431/.710 line against the Sox. He allowed 11 homers all season (which is an insane number) and the Sox hit 4 of those.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 04:19 PM) Wow. Gavin is a lot older than I thought. Pimpin' ain't easy

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 03:50 PM) Floyd Bannister. No, Floyd vs Bannister. Kinda weird. It is Floyd's son. Bannister against the Sox in his career - 14 starts, 7.91 ERA, 1.65 WHIP, .306/.370/.557/.927. Most starts against the Sox than anybody else in his career.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 04:14 PM) Pardon me if this was mentioned already but does Dunn have a no trade clause? He doesn't even have a limited no trade clause.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 03:11 PM) I could say a team of former Sox wouldn't be bad. I'll start with Maggs, Carlos Lee, Garland, Swisher (god I hated him on our team), Olivo, Pods, Thome, Aardsma, Gio, Young. I'm sure there are a ton more. Simply talking about a player that was on the Sox and then left is a completely different story. You can pretty much do that with every franchise in the game then greg. There was actually a website that did make all decade teams (or all 5 year teams, or something to that extent) using only players developed by that team during the time frame or that are still in baseball...I don't remember the exact specifications. I'm pretty sure the Sox were like second to last, and the author commended Kenny Williams on producing such quality products over the decade when being dealt a hand of virtual s***.

The Rockies won 20 of 21 games from the end of the season in 2007 until the World Series. They then got swept by the Red Sox. It's possible they got hot too early, that the time off left them rusty, that the Red Sox were hot instead (having just won 3 in a row to make it to the World Series) or that they ran into a superior team. I would argue most of all that it was the final part of that, but it's just as likely that it's a little of all of them.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 03:09 PM) good call. the market hasn't changed much at all. So a 3 year extension at 10 mil per is very reasonable. As far as 1B goes, I can see Konerko signing a 3 year extension for about 21 mil to stay. Lets face it, Viciedo is more of a 3B than a 1B. I think Flowers will replace AJ next year now doubt. You figure you lose about 28 million in contracts next year. If you add Dunn @ 10 mil, Konerko @ 7 and raises to the other guys while re-signing Putz- your pretty much at even. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?s=...t&p=2190704

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 03:05 PM) Some of you guys who know the trades/Sox transactions better than I do could list a pretty good team we could field of guys we traded, let go. And yes I thought Wise was a great final player on the roster. He's way better that this year's final player on the roster, Lilly. In all actuality, this really isn't the case. There are a few guys who have been up and down and decent at times, but for a lot of these guys you have to go back to the middle or early part of the 00s decade. I mean, sure, it'd be nice to have Matt Guerrier in the Sox bullpen, but considering the 3 good years the Sox got out of Damaso Marte, I don't think you can complain. The Sox have historically "won" most of the trades they have made, even if they gave up what appeared to be more value at the time. Arguing that the Sox shouldn't deal players because of the quality that they have traded is arguing just so you can be pissed about something.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 02:57 PM) This is not an argument by any means, but do you think Dunn would sign for "only" $36 million? If so, I'd have no problem with your hypothesis. Dunn is in the second tier when it comes to 1Bman. As such, I don't think he really has the ability to command a deal for much more than that on the open market.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 02:54 PM) Not sure if we can pencil in Dayan Viciedo as Chicago White Sox 2011 1B. Who else are you going to put there?

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 02:42 PM) We'll probably see the home plate ump pull out his brush and dust off Dayan in his first at bat Redefinining the phrase "new pledge"

Also, for the Sox to be able to afford any type of extension while also having room to add a few pieces, they'll have to get rid of salary from somewhere while plugging in cheap options. For hypothetical purposes, we'll assume that Dunn's addition gets them to the postseason, so they'll maintain a $95 mill payroll. Adding up next year's salaries (assuming they non-tender Jenks, Danks gets $5.5 mill, Quentin gets $4.5 mill, Tony Pena gets $2 mill, Thornton's $3 mill is picked up, and Castro's $.2 mill is bought out) the Sox payroll stands at $79.8 mill. We'll assume that Dunn signs a 3/$36 mill extension ($10 in '11, $12 in '12, $14 in '13). That leaves them at $89.8 mill. That gives them $5.2 million to fill the remaining roster.... C - Flowers - $0.4 mill 1B - Viciedo - $1.25 mill 2B - Beckham - $0.4 mill 3B - Teahen - $4.75 mill SS - Ramirez - $1.1 mill LF - Pierre - $5 mill CF - Rios - $12 mill RF - Quentin - $4.5 mill DH - Dunn - $10 mill Peavy - $16 mill Buehrle - $14 mill Danks - $5.5 mill Floyd - $5 mill Sale - $0.4 mill Linebrink - $5.5 mill Thornton - $3 mill Pena - $2 mill Santos - $0.4 mill Torres - $0.4 mill ? ? Lucy - $0.4 mill Gartrell - $0.4 mill Lillibridge/Retherford - $0.4 mill ? ? it's possible to fill the remaining roster spots with minor league fodder, but even just the guesses that I made to fill the remaining roster spots with minimum salary players, it still adds up to $3.2 mill. If you use minimum salary players for those remaining 4 question marks, you are allowed an additional $400k to make another move over the course of the season. That should make it quite clear that if the Sox were to trade for Dunn and then sign him to a subsequent backloaded extension, they'd have to cut salary elsewhere. That would absolutely include getting rid of atleast one of Teahen (where Morel is ready), Linebrink (where anybody BUT Linebrink is ready), Pierre (where the Sox will have to go out and get someone because I sure as hell don't trust anybody within the system to replace Pierre's production with the Sox remaining competitive), or they have to sell off a high upside part for prospects (and the main players to deal would be Peavy, Buehrle, Rios, Danks, Floyd, or Quentin, in order of most money to least money due next year alone). ...or you could just not resign Dunn to an extension

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 02:10 PM) Wite, my response to you is that while Hudson is MLB-ready now, I will counter by saying that there's still a lot of development needed on him. He's not going to step in and be Strasburg tomorrow, so although his bust potential may be lower, there is still a possibility he'll get to MLB and never make the jump. Hudson isn't, at least as far as I can tell, seen as a sure fire or number one guy, although it's possible that some Washington scouts could disagree and say "get your hands on this guy". If they don't think he's a sure thing, then they're likelyt o ask for more, and they have every right to. They're wagering a more sure thing versus 2 less sure things, but 2 less sure things in a deep draft, and I think right now the Nats believe they have some confidence in their drafting abilities. If I were in their spot, I'd hold out for Flowers + Hudson + more, unless my scouts believed Hudson was going to anchor their rotation right behind Stras for the next 5 years. I can absolutely understand where they'd be coming from too. The knock on Hudson all along has been that his stuff won't translate nearly as well to the majors as it has to the minors over the past year and a half, and I read somewhere, but don't remember where, that he might struggle against lefties at the MLB level (I think it has to do with him not having an adequate breaking pitch to get lefties out). In AAA this year, it's been both good and bad for him against lefties, because his K/9 against lefties is 12.27 and his BB/9 is 2.45 (opposed to 9.08 and 3.26 against RHB respectively), but his HR/9 against lefties is 1.56. Lefties are also hitting .260 against him with a .359 BABIP, but I also don't think that BABIP is extraordinarily high considering the K/9 and HR/9, so there is legitimate concern about him. It will also depend on whether or not the Nationals are really serious about dealing him or if they are just testing the waters, and it will also depend on if anyone else actually wants Dunn. If the Nationals are serious about moving Dunn and getting good value out of him rather than waiting until next year, and no one else wants him, then he'll end up on the Sox sooner rather than later and the Sox should end up getting a relative bargain. I don't see that as the case, and I see the Nationals being fully content with either keeping him and continuing to attempt to resign him, or to take the compensation picks and run. As a result, I think these negotiations are going to be tough and drawn out, because I think the Nationals are probably asking for 2 of Hudson, Flowers, and Viciedo, and I don't know that the Sox can afford to give that up without potentially mortgaging 2011 as a result of this season. I'd personally hate to give up Hudson simply because I like him as much as I do, and I'm honestly not overly fond of Flowers or Viciedo. But the latter two represent cheap minor league talent that can be infused into the MLB team where no other real cheap options are available, whereas Hudson also represents cheap minor league talent, but the Sox have a few guys who may be able to do what Hudson can do at the same exact price. I'd say Hudson is quite clearly the best prospect currently in the White Sox system, but simply due to the depth of the system, they can afford to deal him. (and yes, I almost hate dealing for Dunn simply because Thome, who is an older, cheaper, and slightly worse version of Dunn could have been had in the offseason for simple monetary purposes, but Ozzie had to have his fill of Kotsay. And I hate doing it because this move is so easily countered by the Twins giving up Ramos and a couple other prospects for Cliff Lee, which probably adds 2 wins to them and, in a way, simply offsets the addition of Dunn and at that point in time it's basically a crapshoot to see who wins the division again with the Twins still heavily favored due to the talent on their roster.)

QUOTE (knightni @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 12:28 PM) Danks1 + Danks2 + Viciedo + Santos for Fielder - would you do it? QUOTE (knightni @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 12:33 PM) Danks1 is not likely to extend when he's a free agent. Hudson would be #5 then shift to #4, while a recently released Zambrano can compete with Freddy for the #5 in 2011. The last part being speculation of course. I don't give a rat's ass if Danks isn't able to be extended, his value on the open market right now would net ATLEAST 2 premium prospects. He has 2 full years of service beyond this year and, assuming he doesn't fall completely off the face of the earth, he will net draft pick compensation of some form (and it will probably be Type A compensation). As such, trading for Danks right now adds 2 and a half years of full service time PLUS two top 65 draft picks in the 2013 draft. Fielder is good, but trading Danks now virtually destroys any chance the Sox have of making it to the postseason this season. Add to that fact that you would get one more year out of Danks than you would Fielder, and giving up 3 talented young players on top of it makes it asinine. Even if you believe Danks is in the second tier of starting pitchers in the league (and I do...he's not good enough to win a Cy Young any time soon, but he's most definitely good enough to be a #1 on a playoff team and he would make for a fantastic #1b/#2 starter if there is actually another pitcher on whoever's pitching staff that truly is that good), with as much cheap service time as he has left under team control and as good as he is, he's worth a lot on the trade market right now. He's also worth a lot to the White Sox too. Beyond that, I strongly doubt the Cubs have the $36 million on hand that it would take to give Carlos Zambrano his outright release. If anything, the Cubs would have to get creative and eat 2-3 bad contracts from a high payroll team to trade Zambrano, because releasing him doesn't make sense.

Also, I believe that Dan Hudson's value alone is worth far more than the 2 draft picks that are being acquired for Dunn. Simply considering the present value of Dan Hudson's services alone far outweighs that of 2 draft picks who, if the team is very, very lucky, will make it to the majors 24 months after they are drafted (just meaning a season and a half...if they're drafted in 2011, the team will be extremely lucky to get any significant contribution from said player in June of the 2013 season). If I am the White Sox, I don't give up any more than Hudson, Danks2, and a lower level minor leaguer for Dunn. Like I said above, Hudson's value, even as a #3 starter (which I assume people believe to be about a 4.25 ERA, which would probably make him closer to a league average #2 starter, but we'll say #3 and just run with it) is worth far more than 2 draft picks in next year's draft who won't be able to contribute until atleast 3 years after the trade is consummated anyways, especially considering Hudson is MLB ready right now. As such, his additional value goes towards covering the cost of Dunn. Add a talented player in the form of Jordan Danks in there as well as the upside of a lower level minor leaguer in there too, and you have yourself a deal.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 29, 2010 -> 01:34 PM) Peavy was almost acquired in May, it was the exact same thing in July. Sure, we didnt expect KW to go after Peavy again, but that doesnt mean the transaction wasnt previously discussed. You can split hairs all you want, both of these moves were broken down in detail in the media before they happened. and the time frame wasnt the issue, Vance Law said "when was the last time the media speculated on a trade before it happened" and both of these transactions were speculated in the media before they happened. Most of us actually read the writing on the wall in regards to Peavy. Peavy rejected the deal because he felt that the Padres were a more competitive team than the White Sox and offered the better chance of making it to the World Series. Rather than Williams throwing Peavy under the bus and really attempting to go after other alternatives, he acknowledged Peavy's right to do so, and said that the offer was still on the table. That same offer was kept on the table throughout the season, and Williams and Towers (who I believe was still in charge over there) made the deal and Peavy was a member of the White Sox. Just because that move happened out of nowhere isn't because it wasn't being discussed, but it didn't seem as though it was a possibility because Peavy was on the DL at the time. It had been discussed previously, and the Sox making that move really wasn't a shocker at all. The idea that the White Sox simply don't make moves that are reported to the media is a false claim. The Sox give off smoke signals to try and keep what they are doing away from the media like any other organization in all of professional sports, but there are good reporters out there with good sources, and just because one or two of these reporters scoops a story about the White Sox being interested in a guy doesn't mean the Sox are suddenly going to stop pursuing the player because their interest in that player has been publicized (and to be quite honest, think about how ridiculous that scenario really is...oh no, the public knows I like this guy, better forget about acquiring him!)

QUOTE (noodle_53 @ Jun 28, 2010 -> 09:27 PM) Is there anyone in your system who refuses to take walks? He's the likely choice. Atleast someone might have a use for Viciedo

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 28, 2010 -> 09:24 PM) The fact that he has a .353 OBP in that time makes me think he should hit second. That's what I was largely insinuating. Sure, Omar Vizquel can handle a bat, but he sure as hell can't swing one with any authority.

In Alexei's last 26 games, he's put up a .316/.353/.474/.827 line. Why would you consistently waste solid production at the 8th spot when no one is getting on in front of him, and no one is driving him in?

Jim Thome has 136 PAs this year, and I have no doubt that number would be more if Delmon Young hadn't finally gotten his s*** together. He's on pace for just less than 300 PAs. And he's murdered the ball. Mark Kotsay has 179 PAs this year, and 91 of those have been at DH. He's put up a .190/.297/.380/.676 when acting as the DH. I know I have to let that go, but Thome would have added atleast one more win than Kotsay this year. Kotsay has been virtually useless, and his value to the team, in my opinion, actually becomes less when Teahen returns because Teahen can do everything Kotsay does, but more due to his ability to actually stand at the positions of 2B and 3B, and he's a better hitter than Kotsay is too. I just want the Sox to DFA Kotsay so f'ing bad.

QUOTE (beckham15 @ Jun 28, 2010 -> 09:07 PM) santos has stones! yessir

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 28, 2010 -> 09:07 PM) I did? If so, do you want to be my publicist? I think so. And no. Unless you pay in bars of gold. Then the answer is yes.

fathom mentioned this during game 2 of the World Series when Garner brought in Qualls to face Konerko - you don't bring a reliever into a game when he has no room for error whatsoever. It's going to take hella stones for Santos to get out of this mess.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jun 28, 2010 -> 09:02 PM) I'd die. We should have hired him the second he retired, you can't let a talent like that latch on with another organization. Jose Valentin's mustache is so powerful, it can outmanage Ron Gardenhire and save a kitten from a tree in Pittsburgh at the same time.