caulfield12

Nolan Ryan would be a better comparison...for Mo. Although at the end, Nolan wasn't one of the top 3 starting pitchers in baseball...like Rivera is as a closer. Or Julio Franco playing and hitting well into his mid 40's. Would like to think it wasn't due to PED's.

QUOTE (balfanman @ May 23, 2013 -> 07:59 AM) Where's our El Duke? Crain, so far this year. DUQUE.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 23, 2013 -> 07:57 AM) Versus saying "call up whomever"? Are we ready for the return of Deuente Heath? Zach Stewart? Jeff Gray? Tony Pena Jr? Jhan Marinez? It is a triple A roster full of has-beens and never will be's. Most of the real talent is in Birmingham and Winston-Salem as far as relief arms. They probably are giving SOME consideration to Purcey and Moskos, simply because the asking price for quality left-handed relievers can be pretty prohibitive.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 23, 2013 -> 07:52 AM) The guys who aren't up here are worse. That's why they aren't here. Then try someone like Daniel Webb and just stick him at the back end of the pen (like Nathan Jones to start last year) and see if we can catch lightning in a bottle and work his way into meaningful situations and gain the trust of the coaching staff. The odds are pretty high it won't work and he would have to go back down to the minors...but those odds are probably better than seeing all the Jhan Marinezes, Purceys or Moskoses of the minor league system shuffle back and forth.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 23, 2013 -> 07:30 AM) I thought Victor Martinez was guaranteed to start putting up .900+ OPS numbers immediately upon return? Nobody said that...just that it would take some time for him to come back at his age and when he got it going again offensively, they would be even more of a force to be reckoned with. Not unlike the rust it's going to take John Danks to shake off. He probably won't be the same pitcher he was until 2014...if we're lucky.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 23, 2013 -> 07:33 AM) While on this subject, despite his .215 average, at USCF, the guy who gets the biggest ovations and it's not even close, is Konerko. And what does that tell you? That Alex Rios, while the best player on the team after Sale, doesn't have a huge following because of lingering doubts and anger dating back to the 2009 and 2011 seasons. That Gordon Beckham never became the franchise cornerstone he was touted to be when he was drafted. That Jake Peavy, while he has his fans and a big name and salary, was injured so often and has never been the Cy Young winning pitcher we remember from SD, so there's always a lingering sense of disappointment, even though he's worked his butt off to get back to where he is... Dunn...we know that story. Danks...same thing. Nobody wants to see him end up like a noose around the neck of the Sox payroll, but ALMOST everyone is concerned whether he can return to being the same pitcher he was before the surgery. And that AJ/Buerhle are gone and nobody has emerged to replace them as fan favorites. For now, the only position player with the POTENTIAL to do that and be around five years from now is Viciedo. As we keep saying, this team is lacking both an identity and a younger superstar. Sale is close, but you need a position player to build a franchise around because White Sox fans are so used to offensive fireworks at their home stadium...Carlos Quentin was the closest, but he was not the kind of player who was easy to love, either. You respected and feared him if you were the opponent...but he was always a bit too remote or distant for fans to embrace 100% except for 2008 when he was so good you couldn't help but marvel for 5 months.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 23, 2013 -> 07:19 AM) New Coke would be the closest example, as it actually replaced the former. The only problem is that lasted about six months before they brought back the original. The bottom line is that this thread is silly. No business model exists where you can dump your entire product line and still expect customers to show up before you have your next great product. Any thread that tries to tell you differently is just wrong. The problem is NOBODY is advocating dumping an entire product line. The core product is Chris Sale...he has to be successful for the franchise to win anything in the next five years. Around that, you trim away the products that aren't getting a successful ROI (think Hostess going bankrupt and selling off individual brands)...and keep the best remaining ones (Viciedo, Quintana, Santiago) to build around. You leverage other assets (Ramirez/Peavy/Crain) to clear payroll space and bring young blood in to revitalize and re-energize. It's not like the White Sox would be closing their stadium for 3-5 years and disappearing from the face of the earth. The final member of the last product line (Konerko, following AJ and Buehrle) is becoming obsolete and needs to be replaced.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 23, 2013 -> 07:19 AM) New Coke would be the closest example, as it actually replaced the former. The only problem is that lasted about six months before they brought back the original. The bottom line is that this thread is silly. No business model exists where you can dump your entire product line and still expect customers to show up before you have your next great product. Any thread that tries to tell you differently is just wrong. The problem is NOBODY is advocating dumping an entire product line.New Coke would be the closest example, as it actually replaced the former. The only problem is that lasted about six months before they brought back the original. This isn't letting Robin Ventura go in the prime of his career, or the White Flag trade. Do you honestly think if Paul Konerko played out the season as a .220 hitter with 15 homers and 55 RBI's that ANY fans would not renew their season tickets next year because he wasn't coming back again? Nobody is clamoring for a return of Mark Buehrle or AJ Pierzynski. They just want a clear direction and plan they can believe in and get behind. In the end, the core product is Chris Sale...he has to be successful for the franchise to win anything in the next five years. Around that, you trim away the products that aren't getting a successful ROI (think Hostess going bankrupt and selling off individual brands)...and keep the best remaining ones (Viciedo, Quintana, Santiago) to build around. You leverage other assets (Ramirez/Peavy/Crain) to clear payroll space and bring young blood in to revitalize and re-energize. It's not like the White Sox would be closing their stadium for 3-5 years and disappearing from the face of the earth. The final member of the last product line (Konerko, following AJ and Buehrle) is becoming obsolete and needs to be replaced.

I was shocked after we made it through the 7th with Omogrosso that Jones wasn't there to start the 8th. That was the most logical move. If RV trusts Omogrosso more than Jones, we might as well send him down to Charlotte where he can pitch regularly in the 8th inning with a lead and get reacquainted with the idea of successfully setting up games for Reed to close out. He's definitely not an ideal "long man" candidate...unless they send him to the very end of the bullpen and tell him to start throwing every pitch he used as a starter. Not sure how well that would work, as he's now programmed to think like a two-pitch pitcher and has ditched the curveball and change.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 23, 2013 -> 06:28 AM) No it wouldn't. Ford never dropped the F line of trucks during their worst years. Apple never ditched the Mac. Toyota never traded the Camary. Fine, then New Coke or Clear Pepsi. You said they never dropped this line or that product. In your analogy, does that mean we keep Paul Konerko's ghost around forever, too? Adapt or die. Tropicana no longer promotes bikini contests or girls with dark/exotic looking tans lathered up with oil, instead concentrating on skin care and skin protection and marketing a product line to women in their 30's, 40's and 50's. Travel agents who don't offer value-added services have disappeared due to competition from the internet. The best we've come up with this year is "The Will To Win" and the false argument we should align with those who have outdated ways of thinking about running a franchise instead of siding with the latest statistical analysis and screening programs to identify both collegiate players as well as minor leaguers from other organizations. (It doesn't matter what they're doing...it matters more what they're perceived to be doing.) For a long time, White Sox marketing consisted largely of hoping they would draw big crowds for fireworks nights. They need to revamp whatever they're doing because it's no longer working. We're losing "market share" year after year since 2006.

VS BOSTON RED SOX (HOME GAMES) AUG 24-25-26, 2007 (14.5 GB) 30,581--37,639--38,874--36,745 2008 (Fri/Sat/Sun/Mon at end of season, tied or leading division) 38,621--39,243--39,008--32,634 2009 (FRI-MON, September, 7 GB) 28,839--33,239--32,134--22,511 2010 (Sept, 10 GB) 19,750--16,982--32,084 2011 (July, Fri-Sat-Sun) 27,513--33,919--28,278 2012 (April, Thur-Sun) 20,266--20,414--20,057--22,811

QUOTE (gatnom @ May 23, 2013 -> 12:18 AM) Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but the fact that you answered my question in 4 letters made me laugh. I must truly be crazy. TWTTBC.

To make room for Danks on the 25-man roster, the Sox optioned left-hander Donnie Veal to Triple-A Charlotte. But the biggest decision may occur this weekend and affect Santiago because Dylan Axelrod is scheduled to start Sunday against the Marlins. "I'll be like a Swiss Army Knife,'' quipped Santiago, mentioning the comparison that manager Robin Ventura gave him earlier this year. "I'll be ready for any role." Santiago could be dispatched to the bullpen since Matt Thornton now is the lone left-hander, but Ventura said a decision would be made this weekend. Santiago labored during a 29-pitch first inning in which he allowed a two-run single to David Ortiz on a one-handed swing. "I think that was the best slider I threw this season," Santiago said. Unfortunately for Santiago, Clay Buchholz outpitched him, tossing seven innings of five-hit ball to improve to 7-0 with a 1.73 ERA. Santiago left the Sox with the comfort of knowing they could insert him into the rotation again in the event of an injury or if a starter struggles over an extended period. Since joining the rotation after Gavin Floyd was shut down for the season because of an elbow injury, Santiago has posted a 2.30 ERA in five starts. Gonzales/chicagotribune.com/sports

QUOTE (gatnom @ May 22, 2013 -> 10:17 PM) Am I crazy if I liked Iron Man 3 a lot more than The Avengers? A bit.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ May 22, 2013 -> 11:10 PM) Maybe they are horrible. It seems the busts in the system are the multi sport players. They seem to get athletes but not baseball players. Some flaws can't be fixed at the professional level. Drafting and developing may be the two biggest problems in this organization. You have to point a finger the JR since they draft the agent instead of the player. Better players will get the better agents. The same group of people are repeating the same mistakes. Things need to be gutted at the top. Josh Fields and Joe Borchard immediately come to mind, and RHP Brian West was a football player at LSU, I can't remember if Brian Anderson was just a baseball player...he also fits the toolsy/athletic mold without a refined technical approach. Mitchell over Trout (the Yankees are the only other team who were on Trout, because he grew up in their backyard)...Keenyn Walker was an All-State football player at Judge Memorial High School in Utah, another example. Trayce Thompson's father and brothers, NBA family. Crossing fingers on Barnum and Hawkins for the moment. Then we have all those "weird" draft picks like Royce Ring and Aaron Poreda, where nearly everyone had them pegged as relievers from the get-go...like drafting a punter or kicker in the 1st three rounds of the NFL draft. Finally, the "limited upside" college pitcher selections of Broadway (relatively high) and McCulloch.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 22, 2013 -> 10:10 PM) You mean the overreaction standings? I'm slow sometimes. You might have to explain better for me to get it. I can't believe anybody with talent to make the major leagues would release the ball as he does. Like Keith Foulke. I mean it's absurd to whip the arm around like that. I can see why he is so wild. Can anybody watch a tape of Nate and seriously tell me that's a good way to approach the mechanics of pitching/releasing. It worked for them...if you completely change his mechanics, you could end up with a guy throwing 90-95 and completely out of sorts with his control and movement and arm slot. I can't imagine the Sox would do that until it became a last-ditch, career-saving intervention. They're not at that point, yet. With Foulke, he almost tucked it behind him (sort of like Sutcliffe) and the ball got on the batter faster than they were expecting off the change..."sneaky fast." Darn. No Jose Fernandez for the Marlins. He pitched last night and will miss us by one game. Was looking forward to seeing him pitch. Koehler, Nolasco and Sanabia (the guy who doctored/slobbered all over the ball).

By the way, Miguel Cabrera is playing on another planet. Almost hitting .400, well over .500 with RISP, 13 homers, 52 RBI's.

QUOTE (Benchwarmerjim @ May 22, 2013 -> 05:59 PM) While there is concern for Hicks, I think more concerning is the starting pitching. They can strike any out and the give up way too many hits. Then it would be the extended slump Josh Willingham has been in. I think they expected Hicks to go throw some growing pains, but his horrid start has really depressed his numbers. Hicks' defense has been pretty good too. The calls for firing Ron Gardenhire are really growing louder (and rumblings of clearing out the whole front office and starting over. To me, that plan in unrealistic because its just not the way the Twins operate. That goes back to the Senators days) , but with what he has to work with for starting pitching, I dont get it. I think there is some patience in the fandom because of Sano and Buxton and a few other minor leaguers, but sometimes it gets frustrating watching the current team knowing that they are already losing 4-0 before the game even starts. But that was the Slowey/Blackburn/Radke model. Pitch to contact. Get ahead in counts. Throw strikes, especially on the first pitch. Let your defense make the plays behind you. The teams with more talent (White Sox, at times) will make mistakes and beat themselves. Grind it out. Slide head first into 1B even though all research has shown it slows you down, it inspires the fans and gets dirt on your uniform (Nick Punto). The Piranhas. ETC. At a certain point, you need talent and stuff to overcome the limitations of an institutional/organizational philosophy. For now, your attendance is in the high 20's....but another year of this and it might be 25,000 or less. Figuring out the position players, however, including how to fill Trevor Plouffe’s spot while he recovers from a concussion, “is the least of my concerns right now,” Gardenhire said. “Our pitching staff is more of a concern than anything else.” As it should be. The starters’ combined ERA is 5.69, and opposing batters are hitting .333 against them. They’ve struck out only 57 hitters in 43 games, allowed 32 home runs, and made some odd choices — such as Worley’s down-the-middle fastball to Evan Gattis with a 3-0 count and the bases loaded in the fourth inning. startribune.com/sports

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 22, 2013 -> 09:40 PM) Despite even more misuse by the White Sox, #TeamSantiago is looking good again. Yep, he couldn't have had more obstacles for success thrown in his way...and yet he still persevered and recovered from the shaky start. TWTWBVSTGTO (The Will to Win Before Ventura Surrendered the Game To Omogrosso)

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ May 22, 2013 -> 09:53 PM) Yeah that Molina deal hurt. I'm not sure what happened there. Kenny didn't seem to know much about him, the deal was done quick.... there was a lot going on then. Kenny knew he was stepping away, Hahn was about to step in, Paddy came over & Molina was Paddy's guy... somewhere along the line I think the chain broke down and people didn't do their homework. Personally I believe you should always make the best of whatever resources you are fortunate enough to have. For us IMO no deal for a pitcher should EVER go down without a personal OK from Don Cooper after Coop has seen a good amount of video on the kid. If Coop believes in the arm, the mechanics, etc. and the FO thinks he's a good kid who will work hard and adjust, then I make that deal, simple as that, and if I get burned, oh well it happens. But that Molina deal didn't seem to be the product of a very thorough process. Plus, you factor in the long-term extension being signed...then, to turn right around and trade that player, but then re-sign John Danks to a (for the White Sox) huge extension in years and dollars for a pitcher. It still to this day is a puzzle wrapped in an enigma. They were just incredibly fortunate to get out from under the Santos contract that they shouldn't have given him in the first place with the way that previous season ended for him... TESLA would be another example, from the world of business. They just repaid their $465 million dollar government loan earlier than expected. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/tes...arly/?src=twrhp

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ May 22, 2013 -> 09:42 PM) What business would be smart to change the marketing message prior to fixing the product itself? You can market all you want, at the end there has to be a product worth selling. But in the meantime, with all the geniuses in the marketing world (see Cuban's online uniform design contest for the Mavericks), certainly SOMEONE out there who loves or cares about the White Sox can come up with something better than "Make An Impact" or "The Will to Win." C'mon. It's called "rebranding."

QUOTE (fathom @ May 22, 2013 -> 09:13 PM) 21,298 in attendance...that's brutal 22nd. http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance No matter what happens the rest of the season, the chances of getting higher than 22nd are about zero. There's such a huge fall-off from the Mets (the New York version of the Sox) to 22nd. Are the Sox still charging "premium/dynamic" prices for the Red Sox games?

QUOTE (fathom @ May 22, 2013 -> 09:12 PM) I disagree. Two thoughts on why: - they thought enough of Flowers' potential to give him a chance at being a full-time starter, so they think it's too early to give up on him in a year where they might be looking to unload at the deadline - if they make the move now, they open themselves up for criticism about letting AJ go Agree with #2. The denial explanation/admitting they're wrong. Not the strength of Hahn or Williams, from everything you read and hear about them (from those who know both personally). We heard KW promoting the idea until the very end that Brian Anderson was going to put up 20 homers and 60-70 RBI's per year with regular playing time...our version of Torii Hunter. Then they just pulled the plug.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 22, 2013 -> 09:18 PM) Problem is the team's going to have to spend money to fill a lot of their holes this coming offseason. There's just nothing in the pipeline in the minors, outside of maybe Phegley/Johnson, that's going to be able to make an impact next year in the majors. You mean you're not on the C. Sanchez/Walker (let's face it, he received more notoriety because of his being the first player drafted that year)/Thompson/Mitchell bandwagons anymore, haha? But yeah, other than Daniel Webb replacing Jones/Crain/Lindstrom....not many internal candidates. Wilkins and Black have hit well, but they're more likely to be organizational filler...although if they don't replace Konerko from outside the organization, they will both get shots at 1B. Of course, the results won't be pretty next year if they did choose to go in that direction.

QUOTE (Cerbaho-WG @ May 22, 2013 -> 08:51 PM) This is stupid. Baseball is a business which is monopolistic because the government exempts it from antitrust laws . All of these examples are in a completely different universe when it comes to the economics in which they operate. The United States currently has antitrust laws in order to prevent businesses from monopolizing a given market. However, throughout its history, major league baseball has monopolized the baseball market, preventing upstart competitors from ever really getting off the ground. And the Supreme Court has upheld MLB’s right to their monopoly several times. In many ways, major league baseball is the only true monopoly in the United States, and has been since its inception. Let's look at the history of how the antitrust exemption came to be. When the National League joined forces with the American League in 1903, the partnership proved to be fruitful immediately. And one of the main rules of business is: success breeds imitation. Thus, it should be no surprise that another baseball league soon had intentions of challenging the AL/NL monopoly. The Federal League started out as a minor league, but it had major intentions. In 1914, in fact, many people considered the Federal League to be a Major League. And the Federal League wanted to make it official. On January 5, 1915, the Federal League sued Major League Baseball under federal antitrust law for interfering with their attempts to hire players that were between contracts (meaning not bound by the Reserve Clause) from the American and National League. The judge hearing the case was Kenesaw Mountain Landis [http://www.library.northwestern.edu/archives/exhibits/alumni/landis2.jpg], who was known for his strict adherence to the letter of the law. Landis, however, just so happened to also be a huge Chicago Cubs fan. He understood that the Federal League had a legitimate case. However, ruling in favor of the FL would harm his Cubs, so he took the case under advisement rather than issue a ruling immediately. In 1915 the Federal League ran into difficulties. Major League baseball had attempted to operate with three leagues in 1884 and 1890 and had failed both times. 1915 was no different. The players and owners in the Federal League were absorbed into the two more-established leagues, and late in the year the Federal League asked Judge Landis to dismiss the case against the American and National Leagues. Landis happily obliged. But not everyone was happy with the collapse of the Federal League. The owners of the Baltimore Federal League franchise attempted to purchase a Major League team, and were rebuffed. They tried to buy an International League franchise (the IL was the top minor league organization at the top) and were once again denied. White Sox owner Charles Comiskey insulted the city when he said that “Baltimore is a minor league city and not a hell of a good one at that.” Dodgers owner Charles Ebbets chimed in by saying that Baltimore was one of the worst minor league cities because “you have too many colored population to start with.” The perspective owners then filed an antitrust lawsuit against Major League baseball, claiming a conspiracy to destroy the Federal League. In April of 1919 a court found in favor of the Baltimore owners, and awarded them $240,000 in damages. The case was appealed in 1920, and the appellate court didn’t rule until 1921. When they did rule, they overturned the lower court’s decision, stating that baseball “was not the kind of commerce” federal law was intended to regulate. On May 22, 1922, the Supreme Court upheld this decision, reinforcing baseball’s antitrust exemption. This exemption remained unchallenged – as did MLB’s monopoly – until 1972. As you know from reading Free Agency, Part II, Curt Flood sued baseball after being traded from the St. Louis Cardinals to the Philadelphia Phillies after the 1969 season. Flood’s case eventually made its way to the Supreme Court, who let the old decision stand, criticizing it but saying that it was up to Congress, not them, to fix the “anomaly.” Although Flood lost his case, he paved the way for salary arbitration, and, soonafter, free agency. Today, free agency exists, but the antitrust exemption remains law as well. Baseball may not have an antitrust exemption if the owners of the Baltimore Federal League team had been paid off upon the league’s disbanding. Every other team’s owners were given compensation except for Baltimore, prompting them to file the original antitrust suit. The exemption remains suspect, at best, and few observers believe that it would hold up once again in a court of law. However, since Flood’s case in 1972, no case has even come close to going up the ladder to the Supreme Court, and no league has challenged MLB’s monopoly since the failed Continental League in the late 1950s.