caulfield12

QUOTE (35thstreetswarm @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 05:13 PM) Great poll. Here's another one - "Biggest thing in Chicago" Water White Sox People Families Aon Center Fire Eliminated Willis Tower, Merchandise Mart, McCormick Place, and the City of Chicago to make it interesting. No definition of "biggest".....most mass, coolest, thing you like the most, furthest away, loudest, spiciest, etc. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How about you define what makes the best organization? You seem pretty bright and perceptive. Have at it. Am waiting with bated breath for your delineation, parameters or demarcation...since I'm sure there is universal agreement on every aspect of baseball operations here, and it's very much a consensus-oriented crowd at SoxTalk. Just trying to spark a little baseball discussion on a Friday afternoon, it's not the Inquisition. But please tell me who you think has the best organization and why. Okies?

QUOTE (TheCut87 @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 02:05 PM) I was talking about taking a chance on him before the trade deadline ends i think if he is dealt it will be before the tuesday not during waiver period...if it is just fluid build up and the MRI was good to go, would KW trade for him now hoping this issue goes away in a week or two now knowing that he can get him possibly cheaper If I was KW, I'd be talking to people with the Twins and D-Backs organizations and finding everything I could about Garza's supposed character issues. Might be a non-starter, might actually be an AJ or Everett situation where he fits in.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 02:00 PM) Not to mention, not White Sox related I put the White Sox as one of the teams on the list. There's no way I could include more than 10 teams...if you want to change the polling system to have all 30 teams included, you're more than welcome to do so.

QUOTE (TheCut87 @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 01:58 PM) Does KW try and get him for cheap? Seems like a KW type of move to me. He is under team control for another year, so it would be pretty close to impossible to get him through the lower teams on waivers... On the other hand, they might be scared off by the injury risk or not have the money to pay Garza next year. Interesting situation for many teams like the A's, Rays, Orioles, Indians, etc.

If the Dodgers keep lowballing the Cubs, you definitely go after Dempster if you're KW. At least you try, even if there's not a match.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 01:41 PM) Why is Greinke considered better than Dempster? The same reason we should have traded Viciedo and Ramirez at different points in the last 6-8 months. Just a feeling. Certainly not based on him being a post-season ace or having a track record of pitching in an AL pennant race. He's a one year wonder who has put up very solid numbers since, but his reputation is more bark than actual bite, sizzle over steak.

It's all good. Roll with Humber for 1-2 more starts. You don't let Hernandez, Castro or Axelrod start again. You wait for all the first tier guys to be traded at the deadline and just patiently blow up the prices for those guys without pulling the trigger. Shields has too much wear and tear on his arm from all the deep playoff runs to take a risk on committing to him long-term. Josh Johnson, same concerns, even more expensive to acquire. That leaves you just needing to win a war of attrition with the A's, Rays, Orioles, etc. At best, you take the division. At worst, you have Chris Sale for one game against Weaver or Darvish/Harrison/Holland. Right now, you're diligently identifying all those guys like Liriano, maybe Garza (because of the injury) or Maholm, Vargas, Blanton, Kevin Correia from the Pirates, Jorge DeLa Rosa...you find two of those guys that Cooper really likes (having perhaps identified a simple mechanical fix) and bring them in to audition for 2013. None of those guys would be starters that would be offered $12.5 million or more in arbitration. So basically, you've got a three-pronged approach. 1) You preserve Sale, Peavy and Quintana so they're able to go late into the season and post-season 2) You still have the option to use Danks but you don't have to force him into the rotation if he's not ready 3) You have the luxury to audition Floyd, Liriano and starter #6 for the 2013 team. One of the better second tier pitchers, you can trade them Humber + a prospect (15-30) to acquire that guy. The other one, you can use your depth of relief pitchers in combination with Johnson/Snodgress/Rienzo/Molina/Castro/Hernandez/Santiago. It's going to be a BIT tricky passing pitchers through waivers, but not every team competing for the playoffs has the financial flexibility we do because of the Myers/Youk trades AND because of possible insurance money on the Danks contract. There's no pitcher that we could reach a consensus would be the ace to push in front of Sale for a possible Wild Card sudden death playoff game, agreed? Not Greinke, based on this season, not Cliff Lee, not Shields. Chris Sale would obviously be the starter against the Rangers or Angels, so Greinke's not worth nearly as much as we're making it out to be because he's only going to get 4-5-6 starts at USCF, and it won't affect our bottom line of revenue THAT much once kids go back to school in mid-August. You can accomplish all of this without having to give up Viciedo, Floyd, Quintana, Reed and maybe even Jones. You might have to give up Walker/Mitchell/Thompson/Saladino. In the end, those two additional starters give you lots of insurance, they prevent having to go to a minor leaguer again in the stretch drive, they protect Sale/Peavy/Quintana, they allow you to match-up with opposing teams week by week and they really solidify the back half of your pen with veteran experience when/if Danks does come back. There's always the possibility Myers likes it here and we decide to keep him instead of Floyd for 2013, but to use as a starter again. This preserves all kinds of financial flexibility going into 2013 and doesn't commit us to someone we don't want to be stuck with going forward.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jul 25, 2012 -> 12:11 PM) Yeah, most of the exciting prospects on Kanny have been moved up. Winston-Salem will be in the playoffs so that's good and could be one of the reasons why we're seeing the promotions. Usually the high draft picks go to Kanny straight away to give them better experience so Hawkins and Barnum would likely go there along with Beck and the top college picks. Basto (5th round) might stay in extended since he's struggling in rookie ball now. And Beck could move quickly...

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 11:09 AM) You're dismissing the significance of the number 27. The Cardinals, Cubs, Red Sox and Dodgers also have enormous fan bases and potentially unlimited resources. Their accomplishments aren't even in the same stratosphere. But the Cardinals can't compete equally with those other teams when you factor in the local media market, corporations (Busch is now European-owned) and their average prices across the board because of that metropolitan area's average salary. It's another version of Kansas City, just 40-50% bigger.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 11:53 AM) And Quintana and Reed? Shields will cost more than Greinke or Dempster, etc. Depends how enamored they are about paying his future salaries... That's a lot of payroll for the Rays to soak up with limited resources. They can't have more than a couple of guys over $10 million at one time.

Which is exactly why I didn't include the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, Phillies and Mets. This conversation about the Yankees is boring.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 11:23 AM) I doubt it. I think Greinke signs in Anaheim in the off-season. The other big rumors are we wants to play for the Braves or Angels. All things considered, So Cal is the best bet...or Atlanta.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 10:20 AM) They are actually run quite poorly. If they only had $100M to work with they'd be screwed. Just look at how many free agent signings have completely blown up on them That's why I left the Red Sox off too. Dice-K Lackey Crawford JD Drew Jenks Jason Bay Edgar Renteria Matt Clement Julio Lugo John Smoltz Brad Penny Mike Cameron

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 10:17 AM) I just have a hard time giving up Reed and Floyd for 2 months of Greinke. Its just tough. I can probably live with that deal though, as long as the Sox reinvest and do something in the off-season to sign a pitcher. If the Sox were interested in signing Greinke to a 4yr 80M deal, then I'd be more on board. But would Greinke realistically even consider that offer? The only way would be if he tanked and we didn't make the playoffs. Then we wouldn't want him anyway.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 11:07 AM) The Yankees, and it's not even close. They've been much less successful in the playoffs than the Rays, Phillies, Cardinals, Red Sox or Rangers. It's like saying Manchester United is the best football club...once you start having this debate, they have five milllion advantages that make comparing them to other teams kind of a pointless intellectual exercise. It's like those same debates about how Phil Jackson would have done away from the Lakers and Bulls, with a rebuilding or "average" NBA team. Billy Beane as GM of the Yankees, or Terry Ryan, or Andrew Friedman. Cashman running, let's say, the Padres.

QUOTE (Frank_Thomas35 @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 11:10 AM) I personally trust KW, our scouts, player development, talent evaluators, etc we have in place with in the organization to make player decisions. They have had a damn good track record since Buddy Bell came in and our current ML roster shows that. With that said I also trust their assessment of a player when determining if he is replaceable going forward. Look at Sergio, people were flabergasted when KW traded him for nothing. And they guy hasn't pitched since April. Let them do their jobs. We have multiple closers on the team now and I trust them to find a replacement if need be for future years. Again do you want to take a chance and be a part of another deep run in October, see a trophy lifted in the middle of US Cellular field, a parade with 2 Mil people in the streets of Chicago. Or do you want to worry about what could happen next year and in 2018 next year. Cause the difference is, the Chicago Whitesox go for it, year in year out. The Chicago Cubs wait till next year and worry about next year in July. Me, I prefer to be a Sox fan. Go get em' Kenny, worry about next year in November with another ring on your finger. I wouldn't describe Santos as a "win." We lucked out, but it will make teams more hesitant to deal with us. That's the second time a significant pitching deal with the Jays has blown up. Buddy Bell? Hmmm. Beckham? Mark Teahen? I'd say the record is spotty at best.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 11:09 AM) He's kind of like Gavin Floyd, but with much much better stuff. He's actually stronger mentally than Floyd...in my opinion. Which should tell you something about Gavin. He does have the Verlander ability to reach back and get something extra on the fastball too....not high 90's, but 94-97.

QUOTE (Frank_Thomas35 @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 10:48 AM) This was the trade back then the Brewers had with the Royals: The Royals receive speedy outfielder Lorenzo Cain, young shortstop Alcides Escobar and pitching prospects Jeremy Jeffress and Jake Odirizzi for Greinke and veteran shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt, who presumably will take Escobar's place in the Brewers' infield. Kansas City will also send $2 million in the deal to Milwaukee to cover part of the salary of Betancourt, who is to make $4 million this year and has a $2-million buyout in 2012. IMO not one of those guys they received in return are perennial All-Stars and aren't players you can build a team around. If the Sox trade them Floyd and Beckham the Brewers have a replacement for Escobar in Beckham and a cost controlled SP who could be dominate in the NL. Let's not kid ourselves here, Floyd has nasty stuff. When he is on he is unhittable. It's not like the Brewers are getting some slouch. Gavins problem is in between his ears most of the time. And it turns out the Brewers have success with pitchers like that, see Zach Grienke. And if the Sox throw in Castro or Hernandez they have a young prospect with a high upside. At this point, comparing Beckham and Escobar as shortstops is something of a joke. And ur not getting Beckham's first 6 years, you're getting him where he's more expensive and possibly a non-tender candidate to many. Floyd is just another version of Edwin Jackson....he has value, but he's not getting paid like Edinson Volquez either. Nobody would say his production is coming cheap. Sure, he'll be better in the NL, but they wouldn't control his rights after 2013. Hernandez and Castro wouldn't come to approximating any top prospects (Top 100) that other teams could come up with. They might not even be Top 250, especially Hernandez. Odorizzi was more highly valued than any pitcher we could come up from our minor league system. Jeffress is like Nathan Jones or Soptic.

I forgot to include Marlins in the 2nd list. Nobody would vote for them now, unless they had a new ownership group and moved to another city/market. I'm predicting right now all the other 29 teams will pool their money together with the MLB offices and create some sort of "super academy" (with the new Marlins Park as the centerpiece) for all the Latin American prospects to bring them to the US and get them away from their buscones in the Dominican, Colombia, Panama and Venezuela. This would level the playing field for Puerto Rican kids and create more parity with every team more affordably being able to scout the same prospects all available for the draft. You could build a massive complex of diamonds in the Little Havana area and have "mini-WBC" type games with the prospects for the various countries facing off against each other in semi-annual tournaments at the big stadium. Asian players eventually could have their own training complex in California or Hawaii...probably CA, it would cost too much for the teams to get their scouts there, back and forth, but it would be a beautiful background, like when you had the Hawaii Islanders AAA team in the PCL.

Brewers and Giants barely missed the cut for differing reasons...eliminated Phillies, Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs and Red Sox just to make it interesting and create a tier or grouping that was perhaps the most similar to the White Sox in terms of revenue/resources/market. No definition of "best" here.....winningest, best farm system, best fanbase, most economically efficient, best young players under 25, etc.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 10:37 AM) If the Sox traded huge pieces of their future for someone like Greinke for only and year and a half of his services, and then traded him away for an underachieving starting pitcher with one year left on his deal and an underachieving second baseman who's a possible non-tender candidate, I don't think anyone on here would be happy. Nope. The only way it makes sense is the say way the Teahen deal did to JR/KW. You dump Weeks' contract too, then it becomes a lot more interesting. And you have a potentially very solid and quite a bit cheaper player in Gordon Beckham. And then you throw in Mitchell/Thompson/Walker for a future OF replacement. As certainly nobody was happy with Frasor (Jaye/Webb eventually) and Stewart for Edwin Jackson (Holmberg/Hudson).

QUOTE (BDavisFutureHOF @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 08:40 AM) I too am a believer. Does anyone have his splits this year when hitting in the 2 hole? Seemed like he was putting it together and having much better at bats. You're going to take bats away from Youkilis for this now popular Beckham's getting screwed by not hitting in the 2 hole theory? Otherwise, you're going to have to change everyone's position in the batting order, at least Youkilis and Dunn. Rongey has debunked this idea, and it's one of the few times in my life I've agreed with him.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 08:37 AM) Nope. Oops, I meant OBP. But he's been pretty awful compared to his usual standards, even from 2-3 years ago.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 09:37 AM) That's not allowed, is it? You can't just offer players bonuses in the middle of the season, can you? Once you have a contract negotiated, that's it. I'm not sure why...I saw this idea floated in a story somewhere, that leaving Delgado on the table would result in Epstein and Hoyer doing something creative with Ricketts' money to force that deal through and avoid them having egg on their faces.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 04:52 AM) Beckham is going to be like many other former top prospects before him who couldn't perform well enough with his old team and then suddenly figures it out after a change of scenery. He is too talented, smart and confident to be a replacement-level player his entire career. It seems like a shame that he probably won't become the guy we all thought, but unfortunately it happens. Happened with Kip Well as soon as he left the Sox. He looked like a world-beater for 2-3 seasons as the ace of the Pirates.