caulfield12

You can add Jordan Danks, Escobar, Veal, Omogrosso, Marinez, Heath, Axelrod, Santiago, Nathan Jones, Reed, Septimo, Molina, Hernandez, Castro, etc. Tyler Flowers, too.

QUOTE (hammerhead johnson @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:26 PM) Uh, this is what a Top 20 list of K-Dub's offensive draft picks from 2001 to 2009 might look like (and no, he did not draft Michael Morse). Chris Young Gordon Beckham Brent Morel Jeremy Reed Brian Anderson Ryan Sweeney Chris Getz Chris Carter Aaron Cunningham Josh Fields Donny Lucy Brandon Allen Clinton King Robert Valido Jon Zeringue Jay Mattox Tyler Reves John Shelby Jared Mitchell Josh Phegley Trayce Thompson I've never heard of some of those guys - I mostly just included players who were drafted in the first 5 rounds. This is probably the worst offensive run of any GM in baseball, correct? Like I said before, he's getting by on payroll. Anybody can bring in a Dunn, Thome, Dye, Rios, etc if they have the financial backing. You seem like a pretty intelligent guy - it's shocking to me that you don't understand this. But you're missing 2/3rd's of the picture. Nobody gives a freakin' trophy for best farm system or best attendance. You're missing all the pitchers that have been acquired like Sale, Contreras, Garcia, Javy, Thornton (for Borchard), Loiaza (flipped for Jose), Floyd, Danks, McCarthy, Holmberg, Hudson, Richard, Jenks, Santos, Humber, Quintana ON and ON and ON. International free agents, they got Iguchi, Takatsu, Viciedo, Ramirez, etc. PITCHING IS MUCH MORE VALUABLE THAN POSITION PLAYERS, with the possible exceptions of SS, C and CF. Got AJ for nothing....DeAza for nothing....Alexei for virtually nothing (his original contract). Alex Rios for nothing. Got Quentin for Carter, who took 4 years to make a significant impact. K. Walker should be on the list, too. In the end, drafting position players is only 15-20% of what a GM does. KW has compensated in a multitude of other areas.

““I agree with what Ozzie (Guillen) said, how we’re all grown men. If you can’t the take responsibility and not let him (Hanley Ramirez) rub off on you if you think he’s doing something you don’t like, then that’s not really fair,’ Choate said. “That’s putting way to much on one guy and not assuming the blame yourself as a player. I know all of those guys in the (Marlins’) clubhouse and I know they didn’t necessarily mean it that way, but sometimes somebody can become the easy target, the one to blame. “I think it’s unfair to put it on one guy when it’s basically the team as a whole because we didn’t win. One guy can’t carry the whole team all the time. To say it was all Hanley I don’t think is a fair statement but maybe that’s why they made a change — that it’s good to get him out of that clubhouse and get a fresh start in a new clubhouse.” .” palmbeachpost.com/sports

35,000+ in CLE tonight. Good for them. Probably 10,000 Tiger fans. CLE gets two shots to drive in the runner from 3rd to give Perez a 3 run leading heading to the top of the 9th. Avila/Santiago/Infante due up, bottom third of the order. Lillibridge THREE FOR 36 against LHP this season. Amazing. He has a chance to put the dagger into DET. Stealth Elf K's on 3 99 MPH fastballs from Villarreal. What new, Stone Pony?

Mitchell 2 for 3, 2B, RBI, K... Hitting .364, doing better in AAA than the last 2 months in BIRM, albeit only 3 games. Encouraging start. Still don't see Trayce Thompson as a centerpiece of a trade...but would rather take him, Walker or Mitchell than Saladino. Down goes Simon Castro's trade value. It's amazing what one or two starts can do this week. See Liriano, Francisco.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:50 PM) I guess where we disagree is how good that future is going to be. I don't think its worth holding on to and passing up this opportunity. One of the main weaknesses (according to many) about Williams is that he gambles too much year to year...which precludes the White Sox from ever building a sustainable group of younger players maturing together and winning for 2-3-4 seasons. KW has proven this year he could "modernize" how we deal with the draft, we're starting to get more players from the Dominican and Venezuela...it's very much a strategic vision sea change from recent years. The market will turn to favor the buyers as teams like the Cubs have to worry about getting stuck with Dempster, Garza, Maholm, etc. The Brewers aren't going to get what they want for Greinke, the Marlins for Johnson, the Phillies for Lee, etc. This is one situation where KW is better off being patient and waiting until the last moment.

Called an early win for DET so I jinxed Verlander this time, lol. 3-3....Santana and Hafner with consecutive homers in the bottom of the 7th. Two out, 2 on for Asdrubal Cabrera. Verlander at 99 pitches and counting. Huge game for the Indians if they want to keep their hopes alive. Santana has been a monster this month, rounding back into form. Somehow, Hafner's BA with RISP is .129 this season. WOW. That hasn't happened in a while. Asdrubal Cabrera took Verlander to RF and ripped it for a RBI single. Verlander is stunned. 98 MPH fastball turned around. Two more innings to go. Pestano and Perez looming. Great game. Kipnis looping RBI single that Santiago subbing for Peralta couldn't field. 5-3 now. 3 straight 2 out hits. Big crowd in CLE going bonkers. D. Young hit another homer, this time oppo.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:37 PM) I think you point fingers too much for someone who is wrong as often as anyone else on this site. If you don't think an upgrade for 10 starts is worth it in a race as close as this, I think you're wrong. If the GM is going to gamble that Swisher can play CF and give up Gio Gonzalez in the process, he has to be willing to make this trade when a playoff bErth is at stake. Depends on the cost of the upgrade. There are other avenues to upgrade rather than gambling away our future.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 07:20 PM) You sound like you don't want to win. Gee, yeah, you're right. I want to lose. I almost wish they would make this miracle trade for Greinke...just to see him fall flat on his face. But then you'd only hold that against Williams when it happened, even though you're advocating it now. You're not being reasonable. You're not looking at other more reasonable options like Cliff Lee, Liriano, Matt Garza or James Shields.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 07:18 PM) That trade turned out to be a worse case scenario for the Sox, but they survived. I think it's a lot easier for a big revenue team to find a LF'er and closer (if that is what Reed turns out to be) than it is to get a SP the caliber of Gonzalez. BUT THEY'RE NOT GETTING GREINKE FOR MORE THAN 10 STARTS! You're acting like he's going to go all 1984 Rick Sutcliffe and roll to ten victories in a row. That's just not going to happen. They survived...and yet you keep calling for the GM's head, largely because of that trade (Swisher) and one would assume Hudson/Holmberg for Jackson, although what Daniel Hudson or Sergio Santos would be doing for us now, it's pretty self-explanatory. You came into this season saying Morel, Beckham, Reed, Viciedo and Molina needed to progress. You didn't include DeAza, but he's clearly become a steady contributor to the line-up as well, at virtually no cost. Only two of those things have happened, yet Quintana, Dunn, Rios, Youkilis, Nathan Jones, Peavy and others have more than compensated.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 07:04 PM) If the White Sox can justify and survive trading Gio Gonzalez for Swisher, they can withstand trading Viciedo and Reed for Geinke when a postseason birth is at stake. Berth. And they haven't survived particularly well. They're in the bottom 6-7 teams in attendance and haven't been in the playoffs for 3+ seasons. They need to be building for a sustained run, not a "one and done" type of situation where they're going to go into another downturn that's in between this season for the Sox and what the Cubs are currently going through. The Tigers are likely to be back in first place in another hour or so with Verlander. You can't make that kind of gamble with the Tigers looking stronger than ever. This will be a 15-3 run now. You're predicating this whole Zach Greinke to the rescue thing based on 2009's Cy Young season. He's more hype than reality. Sizzle over steak.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 05:43 PM) Gordon is a valuable guy to have on a team as the primary backup infielder. He can play plus defense at three positions and can step in as an experienced starter in case of injury. Plus he's still cheap. But next year he starts becoming more and more expensive. 1st year of arbitration eligibility. Law of diminishing returns/ROI.

He's an average baserunner. Wouldn't call him good, he's somewhere in between. He's made quite a few mistakes on the basepaths the last couple of seasons. AJ and Jose Valentin, for example, are/were much better, despite their lack of speed. I'm not sure where this "headiness" thing comes from.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 05:40 PM) If they don't make the postseason with or without Greinke, I think KW's time should be up. And if they do make the post-season, with or without Greinke, then he gets at least 2013 and 2014, agreed? Nobody expected the White Sox to be tied for first on July 26th, apparently, except for you. I don't think you would find anyone disappointed in the job he's done or thinking he should be fired based on this season...you can point to 10 positives and only a few negatives (Beckham, Humber, Morel, Danks)...

QUOTE (Frank_Thomas35 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 05:36 PM) Ditto. Let's give it a go now. And I sincerely doubt because we get Zach we are below .500 next year. Heck we were only suppose to win 64 games this year and we are going to hit that hopefully shortly. Give Kenny some credit look at how the team he put together is performing now. It helps we actually have a lineup that doesn't change daily. KW is smart and will not do anything that hurts us now or in the future. Let's say it's Viciedo/Reed/Quintana/DeAza....2 of those 4. And then another prospect like Salidino, second tier guy. Or possibly including Weeks for Beckham. If we didn't make the playoffs, we'd be hard pressed to keep Youkilis and AJ would be at least 50/50 staying or going. If you also lose Peavy, then there's no point in keeping Floyd just for one season at $9.5 million, unless it's just to trade him at mid-season. However, giving Floyd all those starts would block someone like Castro/Axelrod/Molina/Rienzo/Santiago. Trade Reed, and Myers is going to get to 45 appearances and his $10 million option kicks in, unless he just totally falters. That makes the rotation (theoretically): Sale Danks (maybe?) Floyd Humber Castro/Axelrod There's just no way to compete with the Tigers with that type of rotation. Then you're going to lose Floyd and the rotation looks even worse for 2014. A team with that much uncertainty (especially because of Danks) is looking at 72-74 wins, at most.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 06:16 PM) If the A's somehow win that division....wow, just wow Beane would definitely be GM/Executive of the Year, fending off the Rangers and the Angels with all their resource advantages. It probably won't last, but there are some great developing stories this year, like the Pirates and A's. They have a younger pitching staff than ours...or comparable. I'm almost positive their starting rotation is younger than ours. Other than Colon and McCarthy, few veterans.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 05:29 PM) Even if this is true, I'm fine with it. So you're okay with KW, no matter what the record and attendance are next year...if he goes for it with Greinke, they don't make the playoffs and Zach ends up with the Braves, Angels, Dodgers, etc.?? Because the last time "All In" failed, it took about 4 months into the following season for fans to start believing in that team again.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 05:07 PM) s***, I'm as cynical as they come. But if brother quinarvy has faith, I shall have faith. Alex Gordon is doing pretty good for himself lately. He was also the consensus #1 collegiate player of the year. Beckham wasn't quite at that level, that anyone considered him for the top pick in the first round.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 04:58 PM) Man, with all the Gordon talk lately, I feel like I'm gonna stand up for Gordon. When Bacon Slayer first came up, we got this: Great plate presence, drove the ball. Jeter thought he'd be the next big thing. Stone said he'd have a couple MVPs. He would only be "ok" defensively. Well, now he's elite defensively. The offense disappeared. But it was there and it shows flashes of returning. Kid is 25. He can turn it around. Crede wasn't a useful hitter until 2005, when he was 27. In his last year of arbitration. And we got two more years of Gordon cheaply, so there's time to turn it around. We don't need big offense from our #9 hitter, but his elite defense makes him useful. Rios has regained his All-Star form, so I believe Gordon can turn it around and become the Bacon Slayer once more. /optimism post. Apparently you don't consider a 741 and 714 OPS level of offense "useful." 19/75 and 21/69 HR's and RBI's in 2003 and 2004. We would die to get those numbers out of Beckham at this point.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 04:35 PM) Sox fans must be still spoiled with the 2005 World Series if they are willing to pass on this golden opportunity because they don't want to sell the farm. Greinke is a difference maker at the top of the rotation. Does it guarantee a World Series, no, but neither does hanging on to Viciedo, Reed, or Quintana. All this talk about this package is too much, or that package is too much because it involves one or two of those three is in my opinion nonsense. The type of trades you're talking about would make it impossible to be much more than a .500 team next year. If they traded three young cost-controlled prospects, how are they supposed to field a decent team next year? They can't possibly afford to fill 3B, 2B, LF, C, at least one starting pitcher and a possibly a closer from outside the organization. If they were 4-6 games ahead of the Tigers, then it would have more validity. It's too much of a gamble because Greinke hasn't pitched any better than Peavy or Quintana, especially if you correct for the difference beween the AL and NL.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 03:32 PM) Isn't Hanley the guy who cut his hand stupidly then wouldn't take the medicine so it got infected? He must be a piece of work. Yep. This trade didn't come from Ozzie, it was more Beinfest and Loria reaching their wit's end with him, in terms of playing up to his potential the last 2 1/2 years. A little like the Zambrano/Cubs situation, although maybe not quite so dramatic.

LOL. How is DeAza a true corner OFer? Those are sluggers like Dye, Quentin and Viciedo. The opposite is true, he's a decent CFer who puts up really nice numbers for that position/leadoff.

QUOTE (hammerhead johnson @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 02:20 PM) Like who? Chris Carter Michael Morse

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 02:30 PM) No point in arguing. Quentin was never good Alexei was never good Dye sucked Pods sucked Iguchi sucked Dayan's future is bleak De Aza sucks AJP is bad Bring in Trout-type players or you fail as a GM. Thome was one-dimensional and only K'ed, walked or homered, lol. Sounds familiar.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 03:32 PM) What deadline did they put on the deal? Before his next start, which would be Sunday or Monday.