caulfield12

Rios Dunn Beckham Quentin (if he's not traded) Ramirez Morel Flowers Basically everyone on the team but Konerko and AJ. As far as Lillibridge goes for 2012, whether a new approach is wise (cutting down on the swing to make contact and putting more balls in play but sacrificing power) is a coin with two sides of debate. DeAza has clearly excelled in his opportunities...but do we credit Tim Laker more for the success of DeAza, Flowers (well, relative success compared to expectations) and Viciedo than Greg Walker? Does Walker deserve ANY credit for DeAza performing so well?

In recent days, Guillen has been more vocally protective of his coaches and pointed out they still have some financial rewards at stake. The average full-share for each member of a second-place team is about $10,000 and the Sox are battling the Indians for that. "You know what's funny?" Guillen said. "Some coaches might need the $5,000, $3,000 (extra) to be in second place. … They can buy Christmas gifts for their kids. "Maybe the players don't need that, but some coaches do. Just think about them and make sure we win second place." Very inspirational stuff for the fans!!! Sometimes I think Ozzie is more out of touch with the everyday fan than ... well, that's for political discussion and another area of SoxTalk.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense, since the argument about the White Sox possibly being responsible for Manny Ramirez's deal with the Dodgers when the McCourts and MLB were feuding.... Heck, the Trump organization is still paying Herschel Walker on his New Jersey Generals contract.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 05:41 PM) 1.) I already said I didn't want Juan back, even though I respect what he made out of his season. I also said I'd cut Dunn and keep Rios and make him fourth outfielder just because of the contract. In a perfect world, yes I'd cut both. I'd resign Mark. Sign Ozzie to a 4 year extension; move Kenny to another job. You're really going to eat $44 million? After just one season? You have to try trading him for a change of scenery type guy...like Jason Bay or Chone Figgins or anyone. As has been mentioned over and over in this thread, very few teams in baseball have that kind of money sitting around to make a lump-sum payment in 2012. The White Sox arguably are going to lose $5-15 million already, as it stands. And then keeping Rios on the bench...where he's obviously going to be a negative (some would say cancerous) presence around a group of younger incoming ballplayers, that's a recipe for bad chemistry right off the bat. And if Rios sits, there's no way you can trade him for the next 3 years...and his defense has been pretty awful, as well. He's not even an obvious defensive replacement in CF this year. And no way he can get out of offensive slump playing just a couple of times a week.

QUOTE (JoshPR @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 05:18 PM) Wow excuse me black jack, Alex Fernandez, Floyd bannister, Joel horlen, Gary peters, Ed Walsh..... Goose Gossage (not here so long), Billy Pierce, Ted Lyons (interesting fact, 2nd highest ERA of any HOF pitcher), Ed Cicotte, Hoyt Wilhelm, Early Wynn, etc.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 03:23 PM) the only answer to underachieving players is to cut them, even if its the first year of a huge contract. its impossible for a manager to simply bench them and try it again next year. If that was the case, the White Sox would have cut Rios after 2009? Which would have made zero sense...if you look at how he played the first 3-4 months of 2010.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 11:20 PM) Apparently the Sox operate some bizarro franchise. Rowand and Tejada DFA'd from the same team on the same day, Andruw Jones bought out, Chone Figgins benched, Manny Ramirez given away 2x, Rios given away, Gary Mathews JR benched, Zito benched, and on and on and on....except for the White Sox, who base their playing time on salary and salary only I guess. Ridiculous of course, but only if you don't have an irrational love for a manager who doesn't have a single thing going for him that you can defend anymore. In all fairness, waiving/releasing either Dunn or Rios at this point would mean eating 2-3X what ANY franchise in MLB has ever done with an individual player....which was Russ Ortiz' deal. But yeah, the Dodgers essentially bought out their entire outfield of Pierre, A. Jones and finally Ramirez.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 08:16 PM) The report said the Sox offered 3 years $48 million and Detroit signed him for 4 years $50 million. If it was a token offer, and the report was accurate, they were playing with fire. That can't be true, or he would have taken the White Sox deal if he really wanted to play for Ozzie. Rational/logical decision-making would say that he could get well oer $2 million+ in 2014 for his services.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 08:07 PM) Floyd with another Peavyesque performance. Looks like its going to be good for 5 innings, then the roof caves in. It's a crapshoot to figure out who to trade, Floyd or Danks, and which one has the most value at this point. I guess Cooper would have a lot better feel than anyone. By the way, was there ever any "falling out" between Hudson and Cooper or "miscommunication/lack of communication"? You just wonder about how someone with such a great eye for talent would give up on the guy after just 3 starts? Did he have a bad reputation in the minor league system for not working well with the coaches? Gio Gonzalez, that one was on KW...but the Hudson deal is mystifying. How much of it was Cooper thinking he could max out Jackson's potential versus uncertainty out of what they could get out of Hudson in Chicago in the heat of a pennant race against an offense like Minnesota's in 2010.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 08:09 PM) I pasted a link on another thread, before the Sox signed Dunn they supposedly offered Martinez $48 million for 3 years. He took Detroit's 4 year offer for a couple million more. Lost out on Damon, Cabrera and Martinez because of a dearth of prospects and/or the willpower to get a deal done. You wonder how serious they were about Victor, or if it was one of their "token" offerings like to Rowand or Torii Hunter in which they had a 90-95% certainty they'd come up short but still gets brownie points for trying?

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 08:58 PM) Sure glad we got Dunn and not VMart. Gavin couldn't have made worse pitches to VMart in that AB. The irony as well, both Martinez and Cabrera are Venezuelan. And yet Ozzie seemingly never wanted Martinez. Sure, we already had AJ, but by this point in his career, nobody was looking at Victor as more than a back-up/emergency catcher.

Looks like Boston reversed the TB momentum for at least one night.... Months ago, Arizona/SF and the AL Central seemed more intriguing than the AL/NL wildcard races, that's for sure. And you never would have thought the Angels would have enough hitting to threaten the Rangers, but that pitching staff...whoa! Another thought... Thome for the rotation DH in 2010, seemingly if you flip-flopped Dunn and Victor Martinez between the two teams, that would have been enough to at least even this AL Central division if not tip the balance to the White Sox

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 07:30 PM) Never thought I'd see the day where Morel is a significantly better hitter than Beckham. Never thought I'd see the day this late in the season where an Alex Rios 2 for 2 still doesn't get him up to a 600 OPS. Did he actually hit 2 line drives or were they "accidental" hits?

Flowers, despite his seemingly endless slump, is still only percentage points behind AJ in OPS. If the dude could just hit .240, we'd really have something.

QUOTE (mcgrad70 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 07:17 PM) Reinsdorf is at the crossroads in this town. It's going to cost more than he wants to spend to compete in baseball. He doesn't want to decide between Kenny and Ozzie. Kenny's not getting another GM job so he'll likely do the Paxson thing. The key to all of this is whether Hahn goes along with this charade like Foreman did - which I doubt. So then Rick will be freed up to go to the Cubs or wherever. If Hahn leaves then they'll have to hire another puppet because Kenny and Ozzie working together is out of the question. I also believe that Reinsdorf has no intention of paying Derrick Rose the big bucks over the course of his career. He cried over paying Jordan those 3 years. Paying Rose would cost him all of that easy money he's made on the Bulls since his cabal weaseled their way into the NBA. He'll try to sell before he's forced to pay or do the unthinkable and trade Rose. You're making a big assumption that Hahn will even be in the Top 3 for the Cubs' job. It's the most coveted job in baseball for many...hiring an unproven GM probably won't be the direction the Ricketts family goes in, unless Hahn just simply wows them in the interview stage.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 07:21 PM) I'll take whatever I can get. I've trashed Morel for the last couple months. He's been pretty good since the break. I hope it continues. As bleak as things look right now, there are some bright spots. Morel, Viciedo, De Aza, Sale and Reed. But Ozzie has to f***ing go. If not Ozzie then KW. Or at the very least Walker. We cannot come back with this same coaching/management team. Don't forget Lillibridge and Stewart's had some decent outings, too. Still want to see how he pitches against TEX, DET, NY, BOS, TOR, etc.

Viciedo has, and always will have.....pretty much a line drive/ground ball swing. He's probably never going to put up 35 or 40 homers. 22-28 per season is much more likely. As soon as we "fix" his swing, he'll hit 15 homers, pop up 110 times, strike out 150 times and hit .225. Meanwhile, Morel is all the way up to a 650 OPS and Flowers is something like 1 for his last 25 or 30. Pretty impressed DeAza's still sporting a 900+ OPS after well over 100 AB's.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 07:48 PM) I'm sick of reading the blame going to Ozzie for those two players' pathetic performances. For me it grows as old as Ozzie praise to you. I will shed no tears nor will I be mad if Ozzie goes to Florida. I just comment when I think he's getting an unfair rap. I find it amazing people think he should have benched Rios and Dunn months ago. Benched permanently? Not until recently. Not hitting against LHP. Yes. Not hitting anywhere near 4th-6th in the line-up. Check. Put in positions to succeed where a "positive outcome" could reasonably be expected? Obviously.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 06:54 PM) Caulfield, it was playoffs or bust this season. Save that respectability crap. That's for losers that are easily satisfied (not saying you or anybody here is a loser). Our payroll + this division should've meant a playoff birth. Or at the VERY LEAST meaningful baseball right until the end. We were done two weeks ago. Yes, understood. He's had 3 years with basically the same results. The only question is whether JR sees it like the majority of hardcore Sox fans...and not the casual or disinterested ones in Lawrence, Topeka or Kansas City.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 06:45 PM) Ugh, another thing I said people would be saying back in April as a potential reason to keep this guy around. It's a legitimate question. On one side of the coin are those who say Ozzie has created an environment of complete "non-accountability." So we are to believe the players fought back "just enough" to keep their manager in his position but not enough to win th division? If the entire clubhouse just went completely south...wouldn't we have seen some type of "death spiral" down to 20-25 games below .500, as has happened two times with the Twins this year?

QUOTE (WHITESOXRANDY @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 06:37 PM) Unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Ozzie and Kenny were both back in the same positions next season. It seems to me that Jerry Reinsdorf is getting too old and too soft to effectively run this organization. If that does happen, it's practically guaranteeing a return to the mid/late 90's and late 80's for White Sox baseball. Not even JR at his age would dare to come back with the same management team (especially Walker) intact....lose Hahn, lose Buehrle and bring back Rios and Dunn as starters. You just can't sell that to the fans. We should ask Brooks Boyer via e-mail his "nightmare/doomsday scenario" for the biggest possible marketing challenge that he could potentially face. It might look something like the above. Even Hahn as GM and Ozzie returning as manager (with Walker) would be easier to sell than ZERO change.

Not as badly as Manuel did...but he's clearly gone through some stretches in the last three years or so where you could have made strong arguments that he had lost the White Sox. For whatever reason, those teams in 2010 and 2011 pulled out of the 9-11 games under .500 area code and got back into those races. Maybe the talent just won out over such putrid play over an extended period of time...but you have to give Guillen some credit for righting the ships in 2008, 2010 and, to some extent, 2011, at the point when we were 11-22 and the entire season could have completely fallen apart. (And yes, I realize in hindsight...even Greg Hibbard backed this up statistically, the year was basically over by the first or second week of May, even if some wouldn't acknowledge it). Let's just say we crawled back to quasi-respectability. Which still isn't a positive benchmark with a $127 million roster in a, what seemed at the time, clearly wide open AL Central.

I think part of the reason for the pop-ups is swinging out of our shoes for home runs at USCF. (Of course, 1/3rd of those outfield pop-ups were followed by Harrelson's patented, "he just missed it by 1/32nd of an inch...") Seems a lot of hitters have come to the White Sox like Swisher and Dunn and regressed. If you look at our home results in 2009, 2010 and 2011....they have to be in the bottom quartile or quintile for home play versus road play in the majors. You can understand watching the basic approaches of Rios, Dunn, Beckham, Ramirez and Quentin...why they either pop up or pull the ball to the left side of the infield so much. Lillibridge, too, for that matter. Flowers, basically the same thing, long swings that deliver power but also tons of groundouts, pop-ups and K's to go with it. And, as noted in the article, the 2 guys who most consistently make contact (AJ and Pierre) aren't usually line drive or gap hitters, they're singles hitters, basically, with OCCASIONAL power. Carlos Quentin was one of the guys lumped in with the likes of Konerko/Thome/Dye as Walker successes...and, based on where he stood as a prospect/suspect, Walker has to get SOME credit for Quentin's 2008 near-MPV season. On the other hand, since that point in time, he's gone from a clear asset to, while not exactly a liability...a shadow of his former self as a hitter, which was a guy who would take you consistently to the RCF gap, hit .275-.295, not quite so streaky, much better line drive rate...etc. Nobody could make arguments that Beckham or Quentin are better hitters than when they arrived in the organization. There's just no argument. Quentin always had hitting ability, he was a high draft pick and then he got injured and fell victim to a numbers game, but it's not like he suddenly "discovered" how to hit when he came to Chicago. Ramirez is in that same category...at best, inconsistent. At worse, he's also regressed greatly from 2008, with the 2010 season being a "solid" season but still not like his rookie year and the Silver Slugger more based on the dearth of offense from other AL shortstops. Not quite like the heyday of Garciaparra/Jeter/Tejada, etc., putting up monster numbers.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 11:29 PM) http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbullet...ad.php?t=130309 Some see it differently. There was a thread I was watching for quite some time called Viciedo Ready. Sometimes I wonder if the Dunn signing was premature or there's still some doubt about Viciedo. One way or another, we needed at least one big LH bat that was provided in the past by Thome and not so much by the likes of Borchard or Swisher...Viciedo has a lot more to do with Quentin's eventual destination this offeason (trade or stay) than anything with Dunn. He gives a lot more value playing a competent RF than DH/1B. Of course, the best scenario would have been him sticking at 3B defensively.

FWIW, Brandon Allen...ala Tyler Flowers, has officially returned back to earth. 301 OBP, 726 OPS http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/30070/brandon-allen