caulfield12

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 02:57 PM) Going from 11 under to 3 under is climbing. Nevertheless, it won't feel like we're really climbing until we break out of this constant "2-5 games under .500" range or band we've been in for weeks, seemingly. Hopefully, tonight. Who knows how Washington will react to the loss of their manager, though.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 02:22 PM) That's a good example. I just thought of something, let's say you had that exact post, and put in there a few times the words, "in my opinion" or "I may be mistaken but" then would it not be hyperbolic and more suitable? I still think a lot of the hyperbolic posts come when somebody responds to another hyperbolic post. Well, the way I stated it was more concrete or forceful, not brooking debate or the possibility of any other viewpoint having validity. When you add "I think/it appears/maybe/it seems/perhaps/isn't it possible?" that does take a little of the starch out of it. That last comment...is part of this whole general discussion. When someone posts in this manner (and certainly J4L isn't the only one, we all do it from time to time)...then human nature is to respond to someone with equal force. Maybe you wake up in the morning, see that Daniel Hudson now has 9 wins and you say "too bad KW isn't being eviscerated in the new Moneyball movie, he's made the worst trades/acquisitions of any major league GM over the last 2-3 seasons. Surely, half the knowledgeable posters at WSI or SoxTalk could do a better job than he has done with half the ego...if I was the GM, I would have kept Thome and Daniel Hudson and we'd have at least 2-3 more AL Central titles, etc." Anytime you use those phrases like "best/worst," you're always going to get into trouble because they're so overused. Literally, if you search "Juan Pierre" and worst in the same sentence, you'll probably get 20,000 responses from various message boards. Is he the worst LF in baseball? Well, that's very subjective, and certainly many people believe he is. That Ozzie DOESN'T is the only thing that counts, but that's where the hyperbole also comes in. If Ozzie is playing someone who many believe to be the worst LFer in the game, especially in a park known for homers and offense....then maybe Ozzie's also the worst manager in baseball, etc. Gordon Beckham's the biggest bust....Alex Rios or Jake Peavy is the biggest waste of money....Mark Teahen is the biggest waste of a roster spot, etc.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 02:11 PM) If this isn't hyperbole, I don't know what is. This team is 4.5 games out, and climbing. If they don't make the playoffs this season, I agree that changes need to be made. It boggles the mind that you would boycott this team as they continue to gain ground in the division. I'm not sure how much of it is climbing and how much of it was the Indians going 4-14 and falling back to the pack. Probably a little of both. I think Minnesota going from 16 GB to 6-7 game back is a better definition of climbing. I don't think it is just Milkman...the skepticism runs deeply through the White Sox fanbase. How else can you explain the lack of sellouts against the Cubs? Granted, that run last year gave everyone SOME degree of hope that we could get back into it again this year, but just because it happened once or citing the example of the 2006 Cardinals doesn't mean something is LIKELY to happen again. In general, the White Sox haven't played very well at home for most of the last 2 1/2 seasons...with the obvious exception of the 30 game stretch last year when they were beating everyone over the heads. What is perplexing to me is why players like Beckham and Quentin have struggled so much at USCF. Dunn, this year. Or Chris Sale, where he pitches like an ace on the road and falls apart at home. Yeah, I know this will happen occasionally, statistical variance, etc. But it really seems to be an entrenched trend now. Some of the players have even mentioned they feel more relaxed and comfortable out on the road, away from the pressure and expectations of and the fans and media. Obviously, Soriano's comments have helped to stir this idea and keep it alive. Still, the fans' "lack of belief" shouldn't be an excuse for the players to use as a crutch when they lose or don't perform well. Do we have too many "psychologically fragile" players who are too sensitive to what is written or said about them? If so, what can be done to address this issue? It's also a stretch for me to imagine that Dunn, Rios, Beckham, Edwin Jackson, Floyd and Pierre (just giving a few examples) would always perform well if we had only polite, sell-out crowds who unconditionally support the Sox. It feels like a ton of players have come up short in front of big home crowds, upon returning from successful road trips, or in "big series" match-ups.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 02:09 PM) 1.) That was a great post by Harry. My favorite White Sox teams have been the ones capable of coming from behind. Hopefully the second half the law of averages kicks in and the Sox have some comeback wins. Harry also mentioned the big three of Dunn, Rios and Pierre. Any discussion concerning any of those three guys will result is something unpretty. And any thread titled, "Hudson just violated Kenny" has trouble written all over it. 2.) I hate the 'R' word and the other 'R' word. Just seeing them kind of sicken me and make me feel bad about society. 3.) I hate the word hyperbole. I think it stems from high school. I never understood it from my English teacher at Brother Rice then, Mr. Perry, and don't understand it now. I'll use an example from your neck of the woods. Before he won the national championship, "Bill Self is the worst in-game coach in the NCAA. His teams always choke. All he can do is recruit...he's just a snakeoil salesman the boosters, alumni and students love for reasons beyond my comprehension. Why they can't see the real truth is beyond me. The average Hallmark Cards creative director with no basketball experience could stand on the sidelines and win 35+ games with his teams every year."

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 08:33 AM) I really don't think Lillibridge is going to take IF playing time. Not only because Vizquel is there...but because he's been so bloody good in the OF that we're going to keep that division. Teahen will cover the corners occasionally and piss me off constantly when Ozzie benches Morel for him because Morel is a righty, Vizquel will cover up the middle IF, and Lillibridge gets the whole OF. With the lack of any other true backup OF on this team, putting the Stealth Elf in that role actually is quite sensible. No need to blow his knee out while playing the IF or get him thinking about other positions. Ideally, you'd just boot Teahen off the roster and use Milledge or DeAza to give you a more potent bench, but that's never going to happen. I agree that Lillibridge is our best defensively outfielder, at least this season. Rios COULD be better, but he's been inconsistent compared to what we've seen out of him in the past...especially with taking bad routes to the ball. Morel has weathered all those early-season errors and apparently has earned a bit of Ozzie's respect.

QUOTE (since56 @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 08:25 AM) The utility role is a very important one. This player plays almost as much as aregular, but at different positions. Lilli plays his best ball when fulfilling that role. Make him a regular and you lose your utuity man and diminish his success. leave him in the utility spot. Have him,Pierre,or Vizquel lead of as one of them will be in every game. 4.5 games back makes me think the Sox can win this division with a hot streak and some consistent play. Lets go Sox! Unfortunately, my feeling is that Ozzie believes Pierre has to be in there every game to get a rhythm established and get hot again offensively. You might see Vizquel and Lillibridge taking more time from Beckham/Morel/Dunn/Rios, but probably not at the expense of playing time for Juan YET. It seems Juan has another 10 games or so to play everyday...then, depending on the standings and if he's showing ANY signs of progress with OBP, AVG and being more aggressive again on the basepaths, they'll see how far they can ride it out into June as long as they're within 5 games or so.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 08:17 AM) The problem is not that people are saying bad, mean things about Ozzie, KW, Dunn, whatever. It's that people feel the need to pile on and on and on, and that people never want to engage, discuss, or back things up...just yell louder. Balta is the best moderator in the known universe!!! I don't even think it's necessary to say "mean or bad" things, you can still do it in a way that's polite. Something that is loathsome is when subtle (or not so subtle) racist comments are directed at Pierre. That almost makes me want to go all greg775 and defend him incessantly if for no other reason than to be contrarian or echo Rongey/Ozzie.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 07:45 AM) Terry Bevington without a doubt, was the worst manager I have seen on the south side. I was just responding to the "worst World Series-winning manager" post earlier. Torborg and Guillen have been my favorites.

QUOTE (since56 @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 08:07 AM) How many game suspension for an attack on Kenny and Ozzie? Is there an appeal process? Also, as long as Adam Dunn is under .200 there should no suspensions involving that bum. Have a nice day. I would doubt there's anybody on this board who has NEVER once said anything negative about Ozzie as a manager. With KW, he has significantly fewer detractors but certainly more than any previous season...and it reached a crescendo in May.

What I haven't understood the last 2-3 days is why so many people "hate" Jake Peavy because of his contract. If they were posting on the Twins' message board, I can't imagine what they'd be saying about Joe Mauer this season. The guy came back....arguably as early as possible and possibly too quickly...from a one-of-a-kind surgery. He could have taken the entire season to rehab it if he wanted to and there would have been nothing the White Sox could have done about it. And he was actually the winning pitcher in that game. It's almost like people are upset if he doesn't throw a shutout or go 7+ innings in every start. When you play the Cubs, you can throw all their stats out and window and forget about their "AAA lineup" outside of Castro, Soriano, Ramirez and Pena. Same thing when we play the Twins. Any victory against those teams is a "plus" as far as I'm concerned.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 02:48 AM) I'll give it a crack... Juan Pierre has been WAY down across the board this year. We all know that. All his statistics are no bueno - may it be fielding, stolen bases, or on base percentage. The logical choice is to replace him but it seems that pride or some stubborn faith within our organization is preventing a move from being made. Hell, I hope that Juan turns it around but seriously - every time a fly ball is hit his way -- I hold my breath. On the rare occasion that he actually gets on base - I foresee him getting thrown out ( though since he only has 2 attempts this month - it seems he has stopped trying to use his "wheels" ) Anyhow.... there is a bunch to harp on when it comes to our production from the leadoff / LF spot but I for one really hope that Juan improves... I just don't expect it. One thing I do fully expect - is for some sort of moves to be made within the next 6 weeks. What they'll be - I have no clue... but I do have trust in the belief that Kenny, Ozzie, and Jerry all really want to make the team better - even if it means biting the bullet. You'd have to hope that last years rotating DH brought Ozzie some humility... if it didn't thou, I wouldn't be surprised. I have faith that Rios, Dunn, and Beckham will all have good second half numbers. Rios came on strong last year during the second half if I'm not mistaken. Beckham had a great second half for sure - that I remember well. Dunn has been so consistent with his end of season numbers that I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if he put up monster power numbers coming shortly and carrying into October. Our bullpen looks to be locked in. Humber is the real deal and the rest of the rotation is doing well. Things are looking up for the Sox and with Detriot losing 2 of 3 to a HORRID dodger team... we're in this thing. It'll be a fun few months of the 2011 season coming up here. Go SoX! Let's sweep Washington and have a 30 game summer run circa 2010 Rios, .879 OPS before ASB vs. a Brian Anderson-esque .684 last year in the 2nd half. We'd have to be elated to get 684 again this season. More of the same this year, although he's hit a couple of homers recently and showed (for a stretch) an ability to go up the middle and to the right side. Beckham was much much better, you're right there. Unfortunately, he can't seem to put together more than a solid month or two before falling back into the same bad habits offensively. Losing 2 out of 3 to the Dodgers on the road isn't surprising. You could pull up stretches for the Sox, Indians and Twins and say "how could they lose to those teams?" just like how could they sweep Boston, or play NY and TB so well? The concern about Dunn is that the constant "buzz" about his strikeouts, the home fans booing incessantly....PHing the bench for him against LHPer's, it might start to ruin his thought process for the entire season. Let's hope there's some kind of injury, eye problem, adjusting to new leagues or DHing, carrying extra weight....something to explain it. Otherwise, Cory Snyder and Steve Sax can rest easy that their negligible contributions will be forgotten in the world of White Sox FA busts. Only Jaime Navarro is keeping Dunn from being the worst (so far).

Bob Lemon? Joe Altobelli?? Dallas Green? Alvin Dark? Johnny Keane and Red Schoendiest with the Cardinals? Mayo Smith, he won the 1968 World Series as manager of the Tigers... Charlie Manuel wasn't a very good manager at all until he had all that talent to work with on the Phillies. It's pretty hard for me to say Guillen is the worst.

LOL. Now everyone is being too kind and cordial. I think we've all written similar posts over the last 2-3 weeks about Pierre. "That future totalitarian WW II Austrian-born leader sure was a very talented artist, had a difficult life growing up in Austria, was confused about how to deal with women. It's not his fault he wasn't born with blue eyes. He was really hardworking...he was the first one to the Reichstag meetings and last one to leave. He was always willing to give his time to the media to provide a deadline-friendy quote." Do we really have to throw five positives into posts now to make our points in order to avoid being too one-sided or extreme? Nobody hates Pierre, that's not the point. He just represents the easiest and most logical fix...since improving that position won't require going out and getting another player. The counterarguments are obvious. He's working hard....he's had a very solid second half in 2010, what's to say it won't happen again? He can't be this bad for a whole season, can he? Who will hit leadoff in his absence? Lillibridge's going to get exposed. We need to keep Alexei down in the line-up to drive in runs. We can't have a 44 year old or Alex Rios at the top of the line-up when he's just starting to look like he might turn it around. We still have $2.75 million invested in him, etc. We can afford to wait a couple of weeks so that Dayan won't be able to get to Super2 status and cost us $8-10 million more in future salary allocations. PS Like Megan Fox, I don't want to get fired from SoxTalk or get in hot water with Stephen Spielberg. I just think can go too far to the other side...to "apologize/rationalize" for every post we make. That seems even worse, somehow. Better to call Hitler pure evil, or Juan Pierre "really bad," as long as evidence/documentation are provided. It almost feels like we're abrogating our responsibility to "be ourselves" in order to write like "objective" newspaper reporters. Positive spin: We're only 3 1/2 GB of our real threat, the Tigers Negative spin: We're only 3 1/2 games ahead of our mortal enemies, the Twins

Maybe it's human nature to want to see improvements made in your favorite team. When you see them making the same mistakes over and over again (this could be in drafting, trading younger players like Hudson or Gio, bunting too much, getting runners in from scoring position, choosing to play Kotsay over keeping Thome, Viciedo/Pierre, etc.) it does get frustrating. You wonder why if MOST of the posters here can identify the problems so easily, why nobody with the front office or coaching staff can find the solution. It would be one thing if you had players like Owens and Andy Gonzalez and Ehren Wasserman trying their hardest...even with their limited ceilings, it's hard not to root for those guys who aren't "sure things" and maybe don't even belong in major league baseball. Or Chris Getz, to use another example. I'll admit to, for example, jumping over greghibbard with his "positive" thread. He tried to do something "bold and courageous," granted, it's much easier to take the negative side these days than arguing the positive points. Maybe I wish that I could feel the same way that he does about the Sox future prospects. None of us have given up cheering or pulling for Sox victories...I think that this is really the crux of the argument. There's come the point in time where there really SEEMS to be a credible argument to be made on behalf of "let's tank the season.....if KW/Ozzie want to go down with the ship, so be it," start over, have a Top 10 draft pick again to work with, have a new GM and manager, etc. I think this last issue is the flashpoint for all the brushfires. Frustration in not being sure KW has the patience to rebuild, to start replenishing the farm system, making the right trades, etc. Of course, the major frustration is being stuck "in between" and not being able to do a single thing about Dunn/Rios/Peavy/Beckham in particular. Juan Pierre is the easy villain now, but he's not the real issue...it's just that he appears to be the most expendable at the moment, and he plays Viciedo's position, so it's even easier.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jun 23, 2011 -> 11:44 AM) I believe this roster is talented enough to hang with anyone in the AL, if they play to their potential. I happen to believe that what's going on has to do with normal baseball slumps, which happen to all teams and players, and you see it as gross mismanagement. Given Dunn and Rios' performances - what exactly would you do differently with them? With Peavy? With the bullpen that has been so inconsistent? I'll tell you what I saw last night - I saw a winner. The bullpen was amazing, with Santos nearly unhittable. Last night was the first time this whole season I said "we've got this" heading into the 9th. It appears that Santos is really coming into his own. Then how do you explain their well below average record against teams under .500? The fact that except for 2008 and that stretch in 2010, they've actually been an average home field team....and often better on the road? Their inability to put away teams like the Indians and Royals in the last 5 years...when they should be crushing them and playing .500 baseball against the Twins and walking away with the divisions? Most Sox fans would argue that Minnesota never had a clear talent advantage over the Sox until last year. Would you agree with that? So the Twins have overachieved from 2001-2010 or we have underachieved? Or we've simply underachieved against Minnesota? What is your suggestion for changing our "bad luck/performance anxiety" against the Twins?

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jun 23, 2011 -> 08:30 AM) The 2006 Cardinals went 39-42 in the NL Central and won the World Series. The 2009 Rockies were 33-39 vs. the NL West and won a wild card. At least three other teams that I've found in a cursory glance over the past 5 years have barely been .500 vs. their division and won it. (06 padres, 09 angels among them) The 2010 world champion giants were also just 4 games over vs. their division. Obviously, we can't continue to win 33% of our divisional games, but I hardly think we can draw any conclusions from 17 games. So you have a team with the best player in baseball (no, Konerko's not that...although close in terms of hitting lately)...and a notorious second half team in the Rockies. The Giants had the best pitching in baseball (along with the Phillies), I don't quite think we can quite claim that distinction at this point. The bar just seems to be set pretty low. With a $128 million dollar payroll, hoping and praying for the division winner to get only 84-88 wins wasn't exactly the plan. Essentially, you're asking for a repeat of 2008, except without being the front-runner and having to hold off 3 clubs this year instead of just the Twins. We've beaten the Tigers before pretty consistently...but that's a whole new monster with Verlander and Scherzer the way they've pitched. We might look at Thome/Kotsay last year....and Victor Martinez/Dunn this year as the two moves/non-moves that tipped the division away from us in consecutive years. So...with the White Sox having no record of second half comebacks (except for 3 games at the end of 2008) to speak of...what makes you think our recent trends against both the AL Central and in the 2nd half will change? What is different about this year? That we're playing so god-awful but still in it? Well, that show already debuted in 2009, and it didn't end very well. If we do something to show the entire team that everyone's accountable (releasing Pierre) and that Dunn/Rios/Beckham won't just be given time but will have to work hard to earn it by performing.....there's about a 35-40% chance they can pull it off.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jun 23, 2011 -> 08:00 AM) If they had dropped 5 games to NYY and BOS, we would have said "they can't beat contenders" if they had dropped 5 games to the Cubs and Oakland, we would have said "they can't beat the bad teams" if they had dropped 5 day games, we would have said "they can't win day games" I just can't bring myself to cherry pick FIVE f***ing games out of 43 that they won 60+% of and find much fault in losing a couple of them. Unbelievable - now not sweeping a FOUR GAME series is the problem??? The 2003 Detroit Tigers, the team that nearly lost 120 games, played a total of 7 4-game series. They didn't get swept in 6 of them. That should tell you how hard it is to sweep ANY team in a four game series. C'mon Greg, it's not just those two series, it's the fact that they're 1-9 against the Twins and Tigers overall this year. If you look at 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2010, all of those SOX teams played very well within the division. And we invididually blew four saves out of 10 games against the A's and I think won another game in which we had a blown save. 6-4 should have been, at worst, 8-2 or possibly 9-1. None of it matters unless/until Dunn/Rios/Pierre/Beckham (at least 2 and probably 3 of the 4, because the odds of Konerko continuing to hit at this clip aren't high) play at anywhere close to their abilities and/or Viciedo comes up. And it's also predicated on Humber keeping this up as well. And actually figuring out how to beat a MUCH MUCH better Twins team than the one that has beaten us four times in a row and 27 of the last 35. The Tigers had beaten us 8 consecutive times dating back to last year before we finally won a game against them.

Don't they have to win 2/3 in Wrigley in order to worry about parade routes? I hope you didn't just jinx that series.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2011 -> 07:06 AM) You can't trade Gullen this offseason if you didn't have him under contract. Just depends, if they can get Bobby Valentine without giving up a significant player, they might just do that. Obviously, the big concern for the Marlins is selling season tickets in the offseason for the new stadium. Some of it also depends on how Guillen finishes this season, too...in terms of increasing his desirability (to both sides), an AL Central championship would burnish his resume and put him back into spotlight again.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 23, 2011 -> 05:34 AM) Yeah, some of them trade for Freddy Garcia and then get nothing back. I don't see you talking s*** about Pat Gillick. Pat Gillick has been quite a bit more successful in his ventures than Ken Williams has. My point does nothing but accentuate the fact that general managers, no matter the caliber, make dumb trades. Gillick gave up Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd for Freddy Garcia. I'm sure that deal still pisses him off. He was able to recover. I honestly can't think of a move right now in the past 10 1/2 months that Williams has made that has really pissed me off and made me say "Why?" Can you? There is only one move that he has not made that still leaves me scratching my head, but otherwise, it's on the players, coaches, and manager at this point. Pena over Jeff Gray? Haha. I'm guessing you're referring to the ongoing "replace Pierre with Viciedo" movement? Giving Guillen a contract extension through 2012?

So what are Kuhn's other "plus" tools besides hitting? It seems he's got decent speed, but maybe a step down from Lillibridge/Getz and certainly Chone Figgins in his prime. Figgins was really an igniter and game-changer at the top of the line-up.... What is the reason that he's never even profiled in the Top 30 before this season? If he was to have ONE best position, what would it be? Does he have to be moved all over the diamond...ala Jose Oquendo...or is he the type of player who could be a regular at one position? Looking at the White Sox down the line...we're still not certain about 3B, 2B and LF (although odds are it will be Viciedo barring a trade). I'm guessing he can't catch, which is what we really need! What is his arm strength and range at SS and 2B? Does he go better to his left or right? Can he throw from deep short flat-footed or jumping? How would you compare him to Lillibridge, Pablo Ozuna or Willie Harris?

Saw The Tree of Life. Excellent movie, I just love Malick movies. Unfortunately, he hasn't done very many. But he can surely paint a story with his camera in a way that dialogue isn't necessary.

Game, set, match. We held serve and didn't lose ground to the Tigers or Indians.

Low and away, whatever you do.....don't let him pull hook something up.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jun 22, 2011 -> 10:07 PM) True, but his OPS is right at his norm for the past two years, .800. That is still oodles better than Pierre. But that's not playing everyday. He hasn't proven he can play 150+ games in the weak NL, how would he magically be better with us?