caulfield12

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 07:48 AM) There's a lot in your post, but thought I could comment on these 4 problems. 1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year, I agree 100%. Everyone acts like the Sox just don't think they can beat the Twins, and this mental block makes them lose all the time. I don't think its that. How about the fact that the Twins are just a better team/organization and are more talented? The same reason the Twins can't beat the Yankees, they are just a better team. 2) we have no Joe Nathan That hasn't stopped them this year. Matt Capps has looked pretty awful, and Jon Rauch is just another bullpen guy. Look at how good the lockdown closers not named Rivera were in last years playoffs. Jenks has struggled, but the rest of our top relievers have been solid, although they chose to have a bad week at the worst possible time. 3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163) Our team is based on pitching, and the fact is our starting pitching has been awful vs. the Twins. Gavin has s*** the bed twice. Danks has one shutdown game, but gave up a 4-run & a 6-run inning in the last two starts @ MIN (granted, Sox won one of those games, but thats not the point). If you can't depend on those two to pitch well, then the Sox are going nowhere. In 3 of these past 4 losses to MIN, the Sox have scored 6 runs. You have to win those games. 4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan. When you take a chance on a pitcher who makes $17-18 million and you aren't the Yankees, you really need him to perform/stay healthy or he will put you in a big hole. I still like the move, Peavy's previous injury was a baserunning fluke, but not having that ace every 5 days is hurting them, and if he isn't 100% next year, he will burn a huge hole in that payroll. When I was referring to Joe Nathan, it was more the idea of the Twins having a bullpen that just wouldn't let you beat them from the 7th inning on. If you went back and looked at 2002-2004, 2006, 2009, I wouldn't be surprised to see quite a few seasons in there where the Twins didn't lose 5-6 games that they were leading going into the 7th. When they had Hawkins, JC Romero, Rincon (later) and Guardado...then replaced by Joe Nathan, very very few teams ever touched those guys, you knew you had to win the game before the last one-third of it began or you were basically doomed. What Jenks did after the ASB was puncture that idea that our bullpen was unbeatable and arguably the best in the AL...to the point where it's so unsettled now that two VERY inexperienced rookies in Sale and Santos might be the two best options, along with Thornton (when he's not overused).

I'll try to take that as a compliment. Actually, since I'm in Thailand, when the White Sox have been losing all these games, I have nothing to do at 10 or 11 am but think about them...because I can't watch tv or read a book, it's either watch BBC (one of the few channels in English where I'm staying) replay the same headline stories every 10 minutes or go crazy thinking about the White Sox. Of course, the other English channel (ESPN Asia) plays every single New York Yankees game and nothing else, so I have to watch that jack--- Nick Swisher every day and be reminded of one of the major reasons we're going to be missing the playoffs again. I hope I never retire or have another two month vacation again with nothing very much to do...it sucks. Especially after I just had two jobs in China, and I will thankfully going back to them in 2 weeks. The one thing I do look forward to is going to see Tibet and Mount Everest in October, there's that at least. And I do know I'm fortunate to have a job, more than a few posters here seem like they're going through difficult times, and the baseball season gives us all a chance to follow and share something we feel passionately about. I still can't believe Minnesota has the biggest lead they've had all season in the division after we were tied with them one week ago.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 05:28 AM) An ode to the Twins, by Poet Smurf... If we would beat the Twins more than FOUR times every 25 times they play in the second half, I wouldn't have to write about them. I really would prefer to think Ozzie, KW and JR were getting together, saying this is completely unacceptable, and coming up with a better plan than the one we have now. If we played the Twins over and over again (after July 15th) we'd win 26 games and lose 136. Then you would really feel like all the Twins posts were Groundhog Day-esque. Supposedly we've been studying the Twins and trying to emulate their ways since 2002-2004, why are we going backwards off a cliff? Where are the results?

It's too late for this season, unfortunately. KW really has to take a long, hard look at himself in the mirror and see if he still has the burning fire and energy left to do his job effectively. Ozzie does, too. One of the observations from this series is that "the White Sox beat themselves," or, "if you wait around long enough, they'll make a mistake." This particular comment has come from both the Minnesota t.v. and radio broadcasters (I think the direct quote was "that's a stupid play by Ramirez" to throw home) alike. How often do we say that about other teams? Not very often, right? Or is it simply that we're harder on the Sox because we watch them all the time? The problem and resulting question, of course, is how do you teach players not to make stupid plays? If Ozzie's going to stay around, I really wish that JR would make him bring in some new coaches (of course, I might as well believe it will rain frogs like the end of Magnolia while I'm at it). And I'm not sure any of us have seen solid reasons or tangible evidence to believe that Buddy Bell has turned around our minor league system...or, if he is, it's basically like turning the Titanic around in mid-ocean and we're missing the progress. Drafting philosophy? Perhaps that's changing a bit...but coaching/instructionally? Here's the main difference between the Twins and White Sox. If you look around the diamond, all of their everyday players except for Hudson and Young spent time growing up/maturing/developing in the Twins' system. Many of them came up together, they won together, advanced level by level...grew to trust each other and believe in each other (Koskie, Mientkiewicz, AJ, Rivas, Guzman, Hunter, Jacque Jones, etc.) What do we have? We have a rag-tag collection of talented players from all over the place, but they can't play with cohesion and sustain it. One simple example, there was a flyball that fell in the outfield that Rios or Pierre could have caught...but they don't trust each other, so as they were in the same line, both thought the other would get it, no communication or leadership from Rios, the ball falls in and it leads to some early damage and everyone saying "oh, no, here we go again." Of our everyday position players, none of them came up in our system. How do you instill "the White Sox way" when there's no such organizational philosophy to be translated from the minors to the majors. I guarantee there's a "Twins' way" and it started with the foundation built by Tom Kelly and continues to this day with very few fundamental changes in organizational strategies (just a much bigger budget). Or look at the situation with 3B this year...you have Ramirez playing with yet another person surrounding him to his right that he didn't trust or feel comfortable playing with and it took him until Vizquel was put into the line-up to have 100% confidence he wouldn't have to worry everytime the ball was hit to that side. Another obvious observation: Their pitches consistently got OUR hitters out with offspeed pitches, whereas our pitchers have thrown way too many fastballs (without much life on them in the case of Putz, Thornton and Floyd) and pitched right into the strengths of the Twins. So it might take a change in managerial philosophy, new coaches all around. In all honesty, I wouldn't be uspet at all if Omar Vizquel was the manager next year (once again, something that will never happen). Ozzie's done a very good job, but his act has worn thin, and you can only go the same well so many times motivationally with the same team/group of players. There's something very wrong when you're 4-21 against your main rival in the second half of the season over the last 3 seasons. I would like to keep KW, but I'm very concerned he doesn't have the patience to try to build another great team from inside the organization and be patient for 2-3 years. Something else that's interesting...we have sort of evolved over time into the Twins, and they've become more and more like the mid 00's White Sox teams. The problem is that we still have to play 81 games at USCF. The Twins have adapted and adjusted (they still have the #1 defense) and we have too, except our adjustments were made to prepare us for a National League schedule, unfortunately. We actually have more speed and athleticism, overall, than the Twins, and yet they're a much better ballclub across the board. I don't know how we can expect to play smarter if we keep the same players and coaching staff in place, but that's on JR I guess. If we're really going to be stubborn and try to win with "small ball" in a small park, then we have to get a lockdown closer (like the Twins had in Nathan), and where exactly are we going to get that on the FA market? It seems it will have to come from either Santos or Sale. And the other problem is we might need Sale as a starter in 2012 or sooner. So, to summarize: 1) Stop making so many stupid plays (see coaching staff) 2) Develop players and bring them all up to the majors together, stop trading them 3) Find a lockdown closer 4) Hope and pray that Peavy is 100% next year 5) Hope and pray that Santos, Sale, Beckham, Viciedo and Flowers are all ready to make big contributions next year 6) Hope and pray that the fanbase will be patient if you finally articulate a strategy that can produce a 3-5 year winning team and not just an occasional blip on the radar every 5 or 10 years In my opinion, we're almost as good as those Twins' teams from 2002-2004. The problems are fourfold, 1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year, 2) we have no Joe Nathan, 3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163) and 4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan. Finally, I'm tired of these "Camp Coras" and lip service in spring training and occasionally during the season to fundamentals...if we're not going to be able to pound teams into submission, we have to do the little things right, and do them consistently and not suddenly and conveniently forget they exist once the season starts. As much as Ozzie can be a poor in-game manager, one of his biggest weaknesses is talking or stressing something, saying the right things, then one or two days later it's like we never said anything at all, whether it's about Bobby Jenks or bunting, you have to follow through with those types of organizational decisions or the players will start to tune them all out and just shrug their shoulders and say "that's Ozzie being Ozzie." I've already come to terms with losing AJ and Konerko. In the next 12-18 months, we'll go through the same thing with Thornton (he's the best trading chip and Sale makes him a bit less needed if he can give you some major league ready talent back), Danks and Mark Buehrle. They'll try to extend Jackson if he pitches well, but that won't be easy with Boras. Brooks Boyer might have his work cut out for him marketing the White Sox without Konerko and Buehrle. When he started, he must have thought he was in heaven with the 2005/06 seasons. Now he'll really have to earn his money!

This is where the season turns around.

We're going to come back and win this game. Yay! The Twins are just lucky...some good breaks. We're just beating ourselves but we can figure it out.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 08:39 PM) And the negative crybaby woe is me let's predict the next awful thing that the Twins will do to us attitude adds a lot as well. Yes, because nobody else around here has said anything critical. I'm probably the only one, have you noticed anyone else? I mean seriously...

QUOTE (bobryansson @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 08:32 PM) Yes. You can leave, too. Go ahead, be my guest. Because it makes being a White Sox fan so much fun when everyone is fighting with each other everyday. But, if it makes you feel better, I'll take pesonal responsibility for the White Sox losing to the Twins. Better?

Gee, maybe if you win the Superfan Award of the Year, that will get the White Sox into the playoffs and magically reverse our 4-10 record against the Twins this year. You really showed me...that hurts.

If the fans go home, the White Sox won't come back because their feelings will be hurt and they can't survive without the support of the fans. Don't go!!! If you leave now, it will cost us the division!

Well, I don't or won't even get upset anymore. What's the point? If Ozzie wants to keep insulting my intelligence, I'm not going to be emotionally invested in this team.

QUOTE (The Critic @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 04:12 AM) Maybe if this second-half fade didn't happen every goddamned year I'd be more optimistic. Maybe if the Sox didn't seem to fold up like origami against the Twins every year I'd be more optimistic. Maybe if the Sox weren't a .500 team against the American League this season I'd be more optimistic. I was pessimistic (although surprised they were winning like that) during the magical 25-5 run because I saw how many bad teams the Sox were beating during that stretch. Tigers, Cubs twice, Pirates, Nationals, Royals twice. Yes, they also beat some good teams during that run, but 15 of those 25 wins came against the teams I listed. Maybe I'm a horrible negative fan, but I don't see a championship team on the South Side this year at all. I'll happily eat those words if they somehow win it, but I really don't see it happening. WAIT TIL NEXT YEAR, as one team's super-optimistic awesome fanbase always says! The head to head records (4-9 against Minnesota, 4-8 against CLE, barely above .500 versus KC) in the ALCD are evidence enough. At the height of our streak, we really wiped out the Braves, and I thought it was going to be possible to pull it off...but that series after the break up there in Minnesota where we lost 3/4 and coughed up most of the division lead from the ASB, then the blown game in Seattle when we'd put a nice rally together and manufactured a run, that was the beginning of the end. We've gone through four more bullpen implosions in the span of little more than a week. Very few teams can survive that in August, unless they have a lead like the Sox did in 2000 and 2005.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 09:41 PM) Games that stick out in Sox-Twins lore for me in no order: 1. Jose Paniagua (we actually won that though) 2. Jamie Burke getting laid out 3. Game 163 4. Last Thursday 5. Tonight I vividly remember a game that Denny Hocking won with a walk off homer against Keith Foulke in the Metrodome. There was the one that Torii Hunter robbed a Carlos Lee homer. The one that Buehrle gave up about 7-8 runs in the first inning and I'm pretty sure we came back to win that one...must have been in 2005/06. Jeff Abbott with the game-winning hit to clinch the pennant in 2000. The Jenks/Carlos Gomez game from 2008 that looked like the nail in the coffin for the 2008 season. The Jenks blown save the Sunday after the All-Star break was even more of a blow to our chances than blowing so many opportunities against Liriano last week. That two game swing would have had the Twins at 3 1/2, but 1 1/2 and three straight brought them too close and they smelled blood in the water.

QUOTE (Jeremy @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 10:17 PM) Yikes, these Jackson over Hudson arguments are embarrassing: Yeah, the same weak league where our new ace Jackson posted an ERA over 5 this season? Arizona has an extreme hitters park and a porous defense, it's not so easy to pitch for that squad. Also, if we're going to discuss the difficulty of the hitters a pitcher is facing, shouldn't we be mentioning that Jackson has pitched exclusively against 28th and 21st best offenses in the majors since joining the Sox? This argument pretty much only works if you evaluate the entire trade based solely on the three (really, two of the three) starts Hudson had for the Sox this season and nothing else either he or Jackson has done in their careers. Is anyone serious willing to defend this approach to evaluating trades and or players? Of course we should consider players' performances prior to a trade - a few weeks is way to soon to judge a trade - but you can't do that by cherry picking a tiny sample size that supports your argument. You also have to look at Hudson's stellar minor league numbers and the fact that Jackson has only had one above average major league season. I don't see a lot of players signed at a relatively low cost. We have the 7th highest payroll in baseball, despite gaping holes at multiple positions, because we are paying large salaries to a number of players. The many trades Kenny has made where he ships off prospects making the minimum for well paid vets is a big reason for this. I'm not sure which teams have had success constantly dealing cheap young players for pricey veterans, with the possible exceptions of those with much larger spending power such as the Red Sox and the Yankees. Of those teams, even the Red Sox have placed an emphasis on promoting their draft picks to the big league club with Buchholz, Paplebon, Bard, Ellsbury, Lester, and Pedroia all drafted by Boston since 2002. The only White Sox draft pick from that time period that's contributing in the majors is Beckham. The only example of a really high priced player coming in from the outside, there are basically two, Rios and Peavy. If you look at the other big/ger contracts, like Jenks, Konerko, Buehrle and AJ, they don't really fit that example. Now you can add Pierre, Linebrink and Teahen (all players who could/should have been replaced by a good farm system) and that starts to show some of the roots of the problem. We also have Quentin, Ramirez, Sale, Santos and Viciedo that are bringing some younger players into the mix.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 11:06 PM) When we had Maggs and Frank we had a horses*** pitching staff and a horses*** defense. Moving to the NL for inferior baseball is a dumb. You want to beat the twins. 1.) Spend money on the draft and the international signing period. We spent less on bonus money this year than any other team. A team that has such a bad minor league system shouldnt worry about slot right now. Invest in the best talent possible to use for reinforcements or trade. 2.) Instruct players in the minors on how to play fundamental baseball. We promote flawed players all the time. See Jordan Danks. A player who's strikeout numbers in AA told a story that he needed some more time to cook. The twins instruct their players how to play fundamental aggressive baseball with the same message at all levels. 3.) Invest your money wisely. No 4 year deals for Linebrinks. No using your best trading chits for things that are short sided. Think with a single organizational philosophy. Sure I want to win the world series every year. But it isnt reality. 4.) You are in the American League. Make sure that the DH is actually someone who can hit. Your park plays for homers, make sure that you have guys who can do that. 5.) Ozzieproof the lineup, or ditch Ozzie. You cannot have crapy grindy players anywhere near this lineup. He will overuse them in the spirit of flexibility. 6.) Tell the players that sure its cold in April and May, but the meal money isnt as good in Charolette. So tanking the first two months of the season because your peter crawled up and hid doesnt work. Wear a jacket or a sweater. 7.) Try and prepare your players for the grind of the season. Having guys who piss down their leg year in and year out is sad. The twinks down piss down their leg. They bring kids up and they just plug in. We need to figure that out, and mimick it. The twins are a dangerous team right now. They have the minor league system and now a financial backing to build a dynasty. We need to rethink our approach. Because the slap a few retreads and pray on the futility of the division isnt going to work. Having drafted and developed Morneau, Mauer, Cuddyer, Kubel, Baker, Duensing, Slowey, Blackburn, Crain, Valencia, etc., might have something to do with it.

This is the most ridiculous post I've seen yet tonight. Maybe if the fans of the Cubs, Royals and Pirates were just more optimistic and held out even more hope and optimism, those teams would all get to the World Series. Maybe if the American people are all just more optimistic, it will turn the entire country around. Let's conveniently forget for one second that only 59% of eligible American males are currently employed... These are professional athletes making millions to play a kids' game. Did the Florida Marlins need to sell out game after game in 1997 and 2003 to have success? Perhaps the fact that those Marlins teams, or the Rays five years later...seemed to get so little support, it drove them in their desire to prove their detractors wrong. Ozzie's always saying the White Sox don't get enough support. Supporting a 4-20 mark against Minnesota after the ASB the last three years is like Cubs' fans dutifully sending their season ticket renewal packages back and hoping they'll actually win the World Series. The current White Sox model of running the organization is broken. It has to be changed, because insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...what's even more insane is making the plan to DH Jones and Kotsay, 75% of elementary school students could have identified that as a problem, or DeWayne Wise leading off and starting in CF last year.

Jenks the final game up in Minnie after the break Jenks in Seattle when we took the lead in extra innings The Sunday game in DET we blew but somehow managed to come back and win Two more against DET (Putz) One more against MIN (Thornton) That's a four game swing in the standings against the ALCD alone...in one month, when most teams will take 4-6 months to accomplish the same. The Twins lost 14 games to us, we've lost 8 1/2 back and falling like a lead balloon.

I'm still laughing at Ranger's comment that the Twins' pitching is not comparable to ours. It happened to Floyd, now to Danks, our two best pitchers this season, they both wet the bed in huge games, let's face it and be honest. Now we have to deal with Liriano and Pavano with Putz or Santos as our closer. Not the greatest of odds. Also, now 4-20 against the Twins in 08/09/10 second half play. Yes, that's 1 out of 6 ballgames played, a cool .167 winning percentage.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 11:20 PM) We scored 6 runs tonight. We do score off their pitching. As Ginger posted, we spotted them a 4-0 lead, came back to tie it, came back again to take the lead. No one in our pen can close out a game right now. It's as simple as that. Not much else to say. Yes, and no. Their bullpen came in from the 5th on and shut us down completely until Capps, and they still got the DP against Konerko, which most will feel was the key play of the ballgame. I know we took the lead, but it felt like we had to score there to win that game for some reason. The only surprise to me was not giving it up in the bottom of the 9th, that we actually scored and took the lead momentarily. Rauch has been the only one really struggling down there. Guerrier has pitched great recently (despite the 2-7 record) and Crain even better, perhaps the best he has ever pitched for Minnesota.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 11:11 PM) One inning and he's fine. It will be interesting to see how they piece the bullpen together next season. The Sun Times ran something today implying the Sox bullpen was worn down. That can't be good. They are used less than every other bullpen except two. And of course, Minnesota had the best bullpen ERA without Joe Nathan somehow. They lose Nathan, Neshek, Mijares, Reyes, Breslow, Rincon, etc. Doesn't matter. Even Glen Perkins gets us out. No doubt that Thornton and Putz have been overworked. You simply can't trust Pena and Linebrink, and most haven't trusted Jenks all season long. And that one inning for Thornton, he HAS to start it. The thing that Matt hasn't ever been that great at is coming on with multiple inherited runners in the 7th and 8th and getting out of it unscathed. He has a knack for giving up quite a few big hits, and not just the All-Star game. That said, I have 100X more confidence in Thornton than Jenks.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 11:04 PM) I refuse to watch ESPN for 24 hours now with the highlights, as well as the Favre stuff. Will someone please alert me if ESPN shows naked footage of a sex tape with Minka Kelly in it? Thanks! Hopefully it will be Minka Kelly, Erin Andrews and Eva Green from Casino Royale...that's about the only thing that could make these Twins disasters palatable. I still was 10X more upset when Jenks blew that game two years ago and we lost three in a row and possession of first place. That was a dagger through the heart, and a bit more unexpected. Now I'm acclimated to finding new and amusing ways of losing to Minnesota. You really have to laugh, because if you sit down and really think about it, you'll want to throw darts with mini-nuke warheads at any remaining Ozzie Guillen posters left that haven't already been torn down.

Who the hell is going to be the closer next year? Santos? I just don't think Thornton's cut out to be the closer...obviously tonight wasn't really his fault, he's been overpitched all season. I just think it would be better to have a closer with at least two consistent pitches, as good as Matt's fastball can be, it's not unhittable, especially when he gets behind in the count. Hello Liriano and Pavano. Great timing to see those two guys.

If they're going to lose like this, they might as well just end everyone's misery and get swept and let us go back to the way things were 2 1/2 months ago when we were trying to give KW some sort of direction or plan for next season. I said it 10,000 times in the preseason, everyone did, take Jim Thome and Orlando Hudson (no Teahen move) off this team and put them on the White Sox and we're ahead of the Twins by 5-7 games and they've probably had to make a costly mid-season trade to replace Morneau as well.

And Thornton's done for at least one game. What else is new? Did anyone actually expect Thornton to get through 3 separate innings? How many runners did we leave in scoring position? When's the last time we had a bases loaded hit against MIN? Last year?

0 for our last 7 with RISP It's almost like the Twins are taunting us. After the first inning, you want to give up...but you just know the White Sox will SOMEHOW stay in the game, only to have some kind of dreadful ending. It's like a train wreck or car accident. You just can't believe every time they find new and creative, yet refreshingly consistent, ways to lose against Minnesota.