ILMOU

QUOTE (flavum @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 06:12 PM) Listening to Danish. Rondon made a bare hand do or die play. Likely done for the night at 88 pitches. 5IP 4 hits, all singles, 0 R 0 ER 2BB 6K adjusting nicely, and more folks starting to believe he'll stick as a starter. If he makes a jump in physical development as a 20yo in AA, it will be fun to see where folks rank him in our system. Rankings are a lot about timing, sometimes. Really like what Beck's doin' so far. There's hope, dammit.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 05:44 PM) Yep, he's replacement level, you can't have him the LF starter on a team that wants to contend. Trade him for a low A lotto ticket and be done with it. Find a replacement in the offseason. Can they send him down?

May just tripled, thrown out at plate attempting inside-the-parker.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 05:30 PM) Jake Cose is a pitcher for the Dash who's out for the year with a back injury. I'm thinking its Jason Coats. Of course I know that, I guess that back thing might not be good for swinging a bat either. That's hilarious.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 05:16 PM) Well the lineup card has Jake Cose playing RF for the Dash tonight lol. Rondon gets a hit off Bundy. Has he converted to OF, or another guy?

QUOTE (Baron @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 05:12 PM) Talked to Dan Hayes on Twitter. He said he hears that some of the Danks talk is manufactured. I hate looking like the desperate fat chick at the Ball. Not enough fat chick references lately.

Reds are fading, already committed big coin to Bailey, put Cueto on the block, could happen. Would love to buy out his option with a big extension on a prearranged deal. Don't know if what we've got would be of any interest. Yeah, no way.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 04:06 PM) Just out of curiosity, what exactly are these Torre/LaRussa/Cox qualities we're referring to? I'm not that eloquent, so I won't even try. But those qualities might include likeability, respect for playing career, team first attitude builder, etc. I don't know if he has enough alpha dog for a team in this state of development. A perfect guy for the next two years would be a guy like Showalter, who could then pass the torch to a guy like Robin. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 04:08 PM) You still have to have the player execute so if you have bad players a manager can put you in a position to win but you still lose. When Maddon didn't have good players he also lost a ton of games. It is amazing how smart you get when the talent level of your team rises. It's a numbers game like anything else. You get your guys in the right situations/positions the most you can, and you evaluate situations in isolation while thinking ahead. If the margins weren't small, there wouldn't be much of an improvement in a team's W-L, and in the rare case of Maddon, few would argue that he hasn't had a significant positive effect. Their talent has never been overwhelming, and players have often had their best years under his watch. Or they've fallen off a cliff after leaving - BJUpton, Keppy, for instance. He realized what Zobrist could bring and found a way to make him an everyday player and WAR machine. Not every mgr. would, imo. Oh, and his teams have been BABIP killing studs and pioneers. He's special. Has all the qualities you want for the modern era. Keeps em loose and professional as well as anyone I've seen.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 12:03 PM) Kinda intrigued to see what Bassit brings. I was high on him last year. His improvement impressed me after struggling initially at B'Ham, and he finished with his best performances. Fastball looks to have tons of movement and very good velo., which should improve after an eventual likely move to the pen. Kinda hope he can hold down the fort as a spot-starter/part-time 5 along with pen work for a year or two.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 03:45 PM) Damn straight.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 03:14 PM) It's not, which is why I have difficulty making objective claims like this. Obviously, a manager's job is to put his team in the best position to win, and sometimes managers struggle with that, but it's not as if they don't improve over time. As I said previously, that is such a small scope of the job that to fire someone simply based off a few mistakes is incorrect. How do the players respond to him? How does he respond to the players? How does he handle the media? Frankly, people on here may be better in game managers than Ventura - I won't argue that point. But if they were to go into the dugout, do you think they'd command the respect of the clubhouse? That's about 40 people that have to believe in you and respect what you're doing. I'm not calling for his head, I just don't think he's very good. Maybe he can improve. Maybe I was expecting more in year three, and yeah it's real tough to look good with a terrible pen. I think that his moves have generally led to lower run scoring totals, primarily. I though he was worse with the bullpen maneuvering last year, but he's making new mistakes this year. Maybe that will help him learn more faster, or maybe his ability to anticipate will always be an issue. Regardless, he's not going anywhere soon, I realize that. I've said before that Robin has Torre-esque qualities that could make him a good manager of a good to great team. But I do wonder if what I see as tactical deficiency prevents the team from getting over the hump, because the margins are small.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 02:35 PM) The Sox have a much longer history of dumping salary for lesser returns than they two of picking up salary for larger returns. Could it be different? Sure. Odds are not very good though, so I am going with the side of history. Gotta hope the Cannibalization of Kepp signals a change.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 02:58 PM) How many games has Robin won with his managing? Don't worry about the "oh, any manager would make that move late in a game." Just how many games has he won? I think most of us are looking at it at a net gain or loss for a typical season estimate, and not trying to isolate it to specific games. At least I was. How many wins has Maddon been worth? Not easy to define well.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 01:46 PM) How many games? Thank you, VA, for steering the thread toward the logical question that is worth debating. I was going to suggest a thread title change, but don't like to steal an OP's thunder, and, to some extent, it's the shock value that draws you in, so there's that. Anyway, my estimation, with hand on Bible, is 2-3 games. But even if it's 1, that's too many. Next year and beyond, it's time to win. Will Robin be ready? Once again, I'll admit, my perception of the dynamics of the Reinsdorf ownership gives me little confidence that changes will or can be made expeditiously, or with a sense of comfort for all parties, which seems to be important to the boss. And I'm not going to bash JR. The same loyalty that I sometimes lament likely has a lot to do with RH sticking around in an assistant's role for so long, and he's a guy who does give me confidence. Just wonder if the focus is as singularly on winning as it needs to be.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 29, 2014 -> 08:54 AM) I somewhat disagree. I still don't see Wilkins as more than a 15-20 prospect in the Sox system right now, give or take, but to completely dismiss him as having one tool and making 25 in AAA seem unusually old is a bit ridiculous. His hit tool and power are both pretty real, though he's stopped drawing walks which is an issue. And 25 in AAA isn't young, but it isn't exactly old either. These are pretty much my thoughts exactly. And let me add that his dramatic improvement in the second half of his season may, MAY, indicate that he has changed something that has led to this improvement. It's NOT his third or fourth go-around at the same level, and he's never been demoted. He just hasn't risen with the speed that we normally associate with prospects. Would love to watch these arrogant bastards backpedal if he can actually make it in the bigs.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 01:51 PM) Which aspects aren't? I'll get back to you on that. Seriously, I will. Heading off to an actuarial exam now. Enjoy the day.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 01:15 PM) They're literally park and league-adjusted so you can definitely say all of those things. League-adjusted yes, but these are still relatively blunt instruments. When you actually dig into the formulation of the metrics, you realize that not every single aspect is being accounted for.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 12:00 PM) You don't have to agree that it was the right move. I'm just saying it's defensible, and it is. Flowers slow, De Aza fast. Flowers strikes out more than anyone else in the entire league. De Aza strikes out at a league average rate. It's an arguable position, even if you disagree. Therefore, this "RV is worst ever manager" stuff is overblown. That's all I'm trying to say. Complete agreement here. Stated several times that the OP's position was way over the top. There's Yost, there's Bevington - that's 2 right there. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 11:54 AM) So Ventura is supposed to be thinking 2/3 moves ahead, but isn't supposed to when it comes to having pitching depth? Worrying about Rienzo's availability is thinking 5 innings ahead, which is completely unnecessary and not comparable in the least. And today's an off day, so even less so.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 11:09 AM) Yes but you can't blame him for not using a pitcher there. Not much experience running bases. I heard Rienzo mentioned, but you may have to use Rienzo later. It would have had to have been a starter, and if Sale or Q or Danks or Noesi either get hurt or make a baserunning blunder, guess who the idiot is? The Sox would have needed Garcia and Flowers to cover one infield and one OF position. As it was, I think Leury was going to play 3B with Conor going to 1b. But if the Sox used Flowers for De Aza, Leury or Flowers would have had to have been in the OF, unless you were OK with playing the rest of the game with no pinch hitters and no DH. All of this is the proverbial bridge that you cross...... especially the bolded. As I said, PRing for Konerko required out-of-box maneuvers regardless.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 11:00 AM) There's plenty of peripherals which are league and park-adjusted, and Kershaw blows Sale and everyone else right out of the water Not seeing the bolded. Differences are marginal. An intelligent, dominant pitcher in the NL can abuse the #8 hitter and work an inning toward the 9 hole if need be. League adjustments don't fully account for this. And anyway, Sale hasn't necessarily even truly peaked.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 10:53 AM) The other thing to consider is maybe he was thinking 2 steps ahead. Sierra pinch ran for Konerko. Someone said unnecessary, but with runners on 1st and 3rd down 1 with Abreu now out of the line up, you probably have to go for the win there. Other than the obvious about Sierra being more likely to score, he also has to be held on which opens up the infield and has a better chance of breaking up a DP if necessary. With Sierra now essentially the DH, he cannot play in the field in the bottom of the 9th or the Sox lose their DH. Viciedo fans, now if Flowers bats, if he comes through, Tyler is your first basemen the rest of the game. Robin probably like his odds De Aza puts one into play or Beckham who had hit Perkins well, did something better than he did. Obviously, I would rather the game be tied with Flowers playing 1B, Leury in LF, which is probably how it had to go down, but the players didn't come through. It's on them. Not the manager. Conor could have played 1B. Fathom had the right idea about PRing with a pitcher. PRing for Konerko, which I agreed with, necessitates an out-of-the-box maneuver regardless. Completely agree with the bolded, FWIW.

Health will always be the caveat with AE, but when healthy, he has delivered consistently high-quality AB's. Love the guy. Probably doesn't have quite the speed to be a prolific MLB SB threat.

In the style of the "Miracle on Ice" chant: "DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!","DFA!",

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 09:57 AM) You're taking the argument backward two steps. As I said before: non-DP contact was a more important outcome than a hit at the time. Tyler Flowers was much more likely to strike out and much more likely to hit into a DP. We're talking about a difference of ~3K, so a bit hyperbolic on the first bolded. Second bolded is simply wrong - ADA's DP rate is ~4 times as high as TF over the past year (the advantage of being a K machine, I suppose). 450 points of OPS easily trumps all this anyway, sorry. Sample size and an overemphasis on recent results are the only legit arguments on your side. Feel free to make them, but we're never going to agree that hitting ADA there was the right move. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 10:02 AM) I am just pointing out we all have less "experience" than Robin. Saying he's not qualified because of that should mean we aren't qualified to point out what he does right or wrong. Of course this is true, we aren't, and again, just a guy on a board, NOT being paid millions to get out in front of game situations. And if only the qualified were allowed to comment on managerial competence (or anything else), the internet would be a corpse.

QUOTE (Charlie Haeger's Knuckles @ Jul 28, 2014 -> 09:47 AM) Say what? If Sale faced pitchers three times a game, faced NL lineups, and pitched in an extreme pitchers park as Kershaw does vs. the cell, the argument would rage. Personally, I believe it is a very close call.