michelangelosmonkey

I'm not optimistic on Lopez...I don't really see a spot on the team for him. I was just laughing at an earlier comment about Lopez not being a major leaguer based on what he did today, while we were regretting not getting Musgrove based on what he did today. I think Musgrove is fine...I just didn't want to trade major assets for him and today Rodon looked much more dominating than Musgrove.

1) How could they not keep Collins? Lefty hitting catcher that looks legit as a hitter. 2) Madrigal looked very good defensively and very slappy as a hitter. 3) Mercedes has a great arm for eliminating the opponents running game...does seem to drop third strikes and pass balls...and looks imposing as a hitter. I think he has an option left so have him catch full time at Charlotte and impress some other organization? 4) Rodon looked fantastic...lots of swing and miss stuff. Man if he can be what we thought he was going to be three years ago...lefty starter...I know, I know. 5) I like the idea of sending Lopez to Charlotte...the guy has ability if they can harness it enough...package him and Mercedes at all-Star break and you might get something for him. MLB.tv is great.

Which starting pitcher do you sit while Musgrove starts?? Cease, Rodon and Kopek have all looked better than I thought Musgrove looked today...and none would have cost trade assets. Lopez gives up 2 runs because of bad defense and we say he doesn't belong in the major leagues while Musgrove gives up 3 because of bad defense and we wish he was on our team. White Sox PTSD....this team looks really good.

I've been a big supporter of Collins but the Sox sure are acting oddly with him...he's caught two games this spring??? I'm not sure what it means but in trying to read the tea leaves it seems they don't trust him to catch.

I've noticed the same thing but I also think this is such an unusual year versus past Spring Trainings. Most of those guys have not played in a competitive game in 18 months. A lost year must play havoc on their timing. I was quite confident in 2018 that between Adolfo/Lugo/Rutherford one would break out and be our starting RF today...then they all went and struggled in AA in 2019 (which is a big jump...and Birmingham hard place to hit) and lost 2020 to Covid and now we don't really think of them as interesting....this would have been so different with a full 2020...but they suffer from the inaction. I think until the all star break you can't really begin evaluating the Sox young talent.

A career dWAR of 3 means over 11 years his average year was + 0.27 so OK, good in the narrowest sense of the word. His career "runs saved above average" over 11 years at C was a combined...one. That seems pretty much like an average catcher. And again I'm not bashing Mauer who is a certain Hall of Famer...I was merely saying a lefty hitting catcher that is passable defensively is worth a ton. Switch to Darren Daulton who was slightly worse defensively than Mauer and quite a bit worse offensively and still had a 6 year 18 WAR run.

So your counter argument is "shut up"? The argument was that a lefty hitting catcher that can put up an .850 OPS and be passable defensively is very valuable and I used Joe Mauer as an example...and embarrassingly used actual defensive stats showing he wasn't a very good defender. How about we say Darren Daulton. He's more like Collins than Mauer...I just thought Mauer was more familiar. DD had an elite batting eye, decent power and was not a great defensive catcher...and starting at age 28 put up an average of 3 WAR per year for 6 years. And for those that say Collins is a terrible hitter...1200 career minor league at bats with .840 OPS. 600 NCAA at bats with OPS 1.000. Career spring training OPS 1.000. Yes his first fifteen MLB games he was terrible...his last ten in 2019 he put up a .950 OPS. The skills of elite strike zone understanding and + Power play in the majors...and even with a low batting average could be an .800 OPS regular. I prefer taking that chance over the chance that 34 year old Jonathon Lucroy in the midst of a five year slump is the answer to some kind of question.

He was never an "excellent" defender. He got his concussion in 2013. In 2012 he put up a -0.7 dWar. He put up 3 dWar total in the 9 years before his concussion. Gary Carter put up a 4 dWar one year. Molina put up 20 dWar in 10 years. He was a passable defender that was a great player because he was such a good hitter.

And just for fun (warning Cherry picking season)...the hitters that will likely be on the team and we should have some concern about. That means eliminating the Abreu's/Tim Anderson/Grandal/Jiminez group that are veterans that spring training really doesn't matter, the back ups that their hitting doesn't really matter Mendick/Leury/Engel and all the young guys that won't make the team...that leaves us with the guys that either are young unproven or like Eaton--old and some concern of fading skills. That group is Robert, Moncada, Vaughn, Collins (Sorry I think he's making the team), Madrigal, Eaton. Those six guys are slashing .300/.412/.471. Mostly the bad offensive results are a lot of the young that are not showing well (Adolfo) or that core of vets that honestly...why would they try. The guys we should care about are actually doing pretty well.

Only three of our regular starters have pitched: Lance Lynn, Gio and Reylo 11.2 innings pitched 3 hits 1 run 15 strikeouts. Only four actual relief pitchers: Kopech, Crochet, Heuer and Marshall: 7 innings pitched 4 hits 0 runs 8 strikeouts. So of the guys that matter they have pitched two complete games averaged 3.5 hits per game, .5 runs and 12 strikeouts. Stop worrying.

2008 Detroit Lions...4-0 preseason, 0-16 regular season.

IT seems to me if the Rays call up inquiring about a player you should probably re-evaluate his availability.

The ignore button isn't working. In a thread titled "I'm going to enjoy the White Sox this year" Ragah has taken over running around screaming how reasonable he is while throwing feces at everyone. Love the board Tex and all you and the other moderators do...and don't ban Ragah...the world is so much more interesting with crazy people around.

Thanks for the tip...I've been thinking about The Athletic for a couple of years...this made me move.

I didn't realize you could ignore someone. That's a nice feature and I suspect my Soxtalk time will be filled with much less idiocy.

I have to admit that I really don't know how the evaluation process for a catcher works. It used to be PB's and WP's and runners thrown out...but I think that is clearly changed...and honestly the difference in passed balls between a good catcher and a bad one might be one extra passed ball a month....and WP and stolen bases have as much to do with the pitcher. Seems now it is framing...which just seems like a weird skill...its tricking the ump into calling something a strike when it's not. Wouldn't that disappear over time? Wouldn't the umps say...oh that's the guy with the high framing rate...I'm not giving in to that call! Still I suspect the real value of a catcher is calling a game...It's the fifth, Reylo is pitching in a tied game, two runners on, 3-2, you have a lefty hitter up and he's a low ball hitter. What do you tell the pitcher to throw? Or maybe that is all done from the dugout...seems like the pitcher controls the speed of the game so it would be easy enough for the catcher to get the sign from elsewhere. Honestly...if you have a lefty hitting catcher that can put up an .850 OPS and he's merely passable defensively isn't that better than having a great fielding no hit catcher? Joe Mauer who we all remember from up the road...had a CAREER dWAR of 3...and an offensive WAR of 52. I'd totally take Joe Mauer on this team. Final thought...listened to the White Sox Talk podcast with Jerry Naron...and the first guy he talked about after Grandal was Collins. Come on...it HAS to be Collins doesn't it?

OHMIGOD...your responses to everyone are "you are too stupid to follow my arguments" or "you are ignoring my obvious brilliance" or "your opinions are idiotic based on logic and reason". Then we get the insults about us being "childish" or "ridiculous". It's fine to have alternate opinions but your method of expressing them is SO condescending. I didn't start off by saying "you are too stupid to argue with"....I ended up there after dozens of assaults by you. I promised I wouldn't say that again and I won't. I just choose to not engage with you because honestly...you will bring nothing to the discussion. I have heard countless of your opinions as you comment on every posting and I never think " OH...a Ragah posting!!!! I can't wait to read what he thinks."

I think random luck plays a big part in a teams development (and life). All the people that are mad about the White Sox 2010-2019 years...the left over World Series core was now all getting old...they bottomed out in 2013 where your realized Beckham and Vicideo were draft busts, Danks blew out his arm, Konerko, Alexi, Peavey, Dunn were nearing being done...team won 63 games and rebuild was needed...and then Boom...2014 you sign Abreu and he's rookie of the year, Sale suddenly looks like the best pitcher in baseball, Quintana who you found in the rubbish bin looks like a star, Eaton who you got for a bucket of balls puts up a 5 WAR and you have the 3rd pick in the draft...so instead of following a normal rebuild you are thrust into this go for it mode...even though the foundation is really in ruins (largely because of the Wilder scandal which in a sense is also random bad luck). So four pieces of really good luck (ABreu, Eaton, Sale, Quintana) came along at the worst time...but in the end they became the foundation for the real rebuild. I hope I'm right about Collins...only because it raises the ceiling of this team even higher if it is.

Thanks Tony...that could not have been better stated.

Having a lefty hitting catcher that can walk 100 times a year and hit 25 homers would be one of the most valuable assets in baseball....he wouldn't even have to be a good defensive catcher...just average. Its hard to get an exact feel on what the White Sox think of Collins. In 2018 they had a young, offensive catcher Omar Narvaez and signed Wellington Castillo...many thought they signed Castillo to help with the Manny Machado signing as they were friends. Zack was only 23...he played 74 games that year all at catcher and was the all-star selection for the Southern League. At the end of 2018...the young and interesting Narvaez (he put up a 2 WAR for Sox in 97 games at catcher at 26) was traded for Colome...which seemed to hint the White Sox thought they had a BETTER offense first catcher in the system. That off-season they signed a two year contract with a journeyman catcher, James McCann. In 2019 JM exploded out of the gate and was the all-star catcher, so he caught 106 games and they still had Wellington under contract so he still caught 50 games. Collins, 24, came up and caught 10 games in the pros and caught 50 games in AAA...also he played 21 games at first base for the first time...was that because they lost faith in him as a catcher...or wanted to add to his diversity as a player? In 2020 they signed Grandal...was that because they lost faith in Collins as a catcher or that they thought the team was near ready to compete, Grandal was affordable and a top 3 catcher in the league and 25 year old Collins wasn't ready to manage a staff of young pitchers? Why didn't they trade James McCann?? It's possible that teams saw McCann's second half slide in 2019 and just figured 2019 first half was an illusion and didn't offer anything for him. Why didn't they trade Collins...at that point he had just put up a .950 OPS as a young lefty catcher in AAA. Then 2020 with two great starting catchers they had Collins everyday in Schaumburg catching simulated games with the Sox top young pitchers....everyday for months. Doing nothing but catching under watchful eyes. So now it's 2021 and the Sox made no attempt to resign JM...so they must have a plan for back up catcher. I have written this before but I think this has been the Sox plan all along...it's just JM accidently being great and COVID screwed up the time line. Grandal catches 110 games and Collins catches 50 and backs up at 1b and backs up DH. He's only 26 and catching is a hard art to learn. As Grandal gets older they cut his number of games caught and increase Collins games caught. I've heard Catching is one of the hardest positions to learn...the White Sox have been grooming Collins to be everyday starter for the rest of the window. If you are looking for a comp...Ted Simmons (switch hitting but similar) was a high OBP, 20 homer per year, mediocre defensive catcher that had a 5 year stretch starting at 26 where he put up 25 WAR. Of course if they give the back up catcher job to Lucroy it will tell us 100% that they have no belief that Collins can catch....but what does "Can't catch" even mean? Narvaez was forced to catch 90 games because WC got caught with PEDS and he had seven errors, allowed 12 passed balls, and only threw out 24 percent of runners...and STILL put up near 2 WAR...good hitting catchers are valuable and good hitting lefty catchers more so.

Ah...so you ARE RagahRagah...that explains a lot.

I didn't "praise" the hiring...I was actually for the idea of promoting Jirschele. And fine...JR said that a year ago. I just think management now realizes that they may have stumbled upon something amazing and you don't want to hand the keys to the new Ferrari over to the kid. TLR is almost certainly going to be better than Ricky and could be a nice transitional figure before you hand over the keys to some hot shot young guy they have been grooming...either on the MLB staff or one of the minor league guys like Jirschele. He could also be an inspirational leader that gets more out of his players than they knew they had like he did on so many other teams. Or he could be sitting drunk and napping in the dugout every day which is your position. Doesn't matter...the argument made was that the hiring of TLR was "moronic"...my counter argument is that there are unique people in this world and that special skill they have doesn't necessarily disappear with age. Go ask Nick Saban. If the White Sox go 102-60 this year and win the world series I suspect your first post will be "White Sox win in spite of old drunk manager". Whatever. We are stuck with TLR and I for one and I think dozens of others on here don't want to hear your daily sniping in every topic "sure Robert looks good but the manager is old and drunk". It's boring.

HAHA...I almost started to argue with you.

And I'm looking for a stick to beat this dead horse to death but...I think an interesting comp for Collins is Jorge Posada. He had an elite batting eye as a minor leaguer and decent power but not very good batting average. He didn't reach the majors until 26 and was back up catcher catching 50 game. 27 and 28 he caught 100 games and then after that he was the Yankees regular catcher. He was never great defensively but averaged 4.5 WAR per year for 8 years.

I will be really disappointed if Lucroy makes the team. He had a REALLY good five year stretch offensively and defensively but that was five years ago. I get that he had that neck injury...but he's 35. He's righty. And no major league team wanted him when they could have had him for free. I'm not sure what he could do in a handful of spring training games to convince me to take him over a lefty that is 9 years younger. If they take him over Collins there is something horrible about Collins that we don't know about.