Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 10:44 AM) Easy. If nobody wants him, you DFA him. I know that, but I was trying to think more along the lines of not having to eat his money first. It would be better to get another player making the same amount than it would be to eat $1.5M and take on somebody else.

I don't know how we'll be able to move Kotsay or Jones. Nobody needs another extra OF, but I'll try anyway. Here are my 2 trade suggestions to fix the problem: 1. Crazy 3-way trade: Kotsay to the Reds for Aaron Miles in an equal salary swap (each player paid $1.5M) and then Miles goes with a halfway decent prospect to the Orioles for Ty Wigginton and cash. For the Orioles: Miles is very versatile, and although he's coming off an absolutely horrid year, he's never had a bad year aside from 2009. He'd give the O's more versatility than Wigginton, who is useless with Tejada and Atkins at the corners, especially with youngsters coming up. Going from Wigginton to Miles is a talent downgrade, even though Wigginton is a sunk cost, so the O's get someone halfway decent to make up for the talent downgrade. For the Reds: Kotsay would allow the Reds to dump Laynce Nix, plus he'd back up Votto, provide a better PH option, and open up more time as a backup for Janish, who was going to be a starter until the Reds picked up OC. For us: Wigginton replaces Kotsay as the 1B backup, and also replaces Nix as the 3B backup as well. Plus he replaces Jones as a power option off the bench. Vizquel covers SS and 2B. 2. Try to trade Andruw Jones to the Pirates for Ryan Church. Jones becomes their backup and DH option against AL teams. He's dirt cheap, and while he has a lower floor than Church, the reclamation potential is greater. For us, we actually get a backup CF option. In the end, we replace Nix + Jones + Kotsay with Wigginton and Church. Bench: Church LF, CF, RF Castro C Vizquel 2B, 3B, SS Wigginton 1B, 3B Much better.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 10:13 AM) You dont have to believe my sources. Not a big deal. No need to try and make fun of me though. I wasn't making fun of you, I was just saying your sources don't exist. My apologies for sounding offensive.

Sucks about Rothwell and a shame for Elvis. BTW, I know that there are only a handful of people that post in this thread, but doesn't anyone else think that our MMA thread belongs in the stickied topics section? Are we not good enough or something? I wonder if a petition signed by about 4 people would make any noise? Who's with me on this?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 10:04 PM) What I don't understand is where this seemingly arbitrary figure of $4 million that we supposedly have available came from...Scott Merkin? Because there was the contradictory quote that we have the resources to add an "impact" player if we needed to at some point (reading between the lines, at mid-season, so the salary hit wouldn't be as large I suppose). It just doesn't make any sense to lose Damon to the Tigers over $1-2 million. I could see if the difference was $3-5 million, then you pass. But I think while he's not a superstar (and never really was), he would be a significant addition that would make everyone feel a lot more comfortable, and it would take a lot of the pressure off the likes of Beckham, Quentin and Konerko...not to mention Jones or Kotsay will start pressing as well if the offense is struggling in April/May to produce runs and either one start off the season like Dye in 2005, BA in 2006 or Alexei the last two seasons, the media will start hammering both them and KW...just like the CF situation last year when Wise was getting booed the first week as leadoff hitter. I don't know where the figure came from, but it's been mentioned quite a bit so I assume it's accurate. The $4.5M quoted can't really be overstated, can it? I mean, even in this climate you'd have to offer at least that just to get Damon to listen to you speak. I think the impact player JR was talking about was probably Gonzalez, or someone similar. I think JR was talking about another huge addition that would sell tickets and reinvigorate the fanbase. I don't think Damon does much of either, although he definitely makes us a lot better. JR isn't going to risk taking a hit for just anyone. I agree, but it never made sense to go with Kotsay and Jones at DH either, and yet Kenny stuck by Ozzie with that one all offseason. It's like the peyote is just wearing off now.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 12:15 AM) Ya know there is something to be said that Andruw Jones did hit 17 Hr's in 281 AB's. Now put him at USCF with short porches and give him say 500 AB's, thats about 30 HR out of the DH position. Not bad right, last year Thome hit 23. When your batting average is in the .220-.230 range and you're getting on at a Pablo Ozuna-esque pace, then yes, you still suck.

We know the same s*** now that we did a while ago: Detroit has the better money, Sox are the better environment. All this other crap, including the differing opinions from different "sources," is meaningless. We'll hear about it when it's announced, just like always. And if Damon had already made his decision then don't you think someone would have announced it by now?

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 09:45 PM) You said yourself there was a lot of action yesterday. If they made a final offer why wouldn't it be quiet? Not much else to say. Rock Raines' source is Santa Claus, and occasionally the Easter Bunny chimes in too.

QUOTE (Real @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 12:39 PM) When taking crawfords actual talent and ability into considersation, he may be the most overrated player in baseball. Not knocking him because hes pretty good, but look at the guys numbers, other than SBs, nothing pops out that tells me he deserves the hype surrounding him This post needs to be framed and hung immediately.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:57 AM) As over-paid as he may be, Hunter is much more accomplished and consistent than Rios, and thus is a much safer bet to produce. We'll have to agree to disagree on this I guess, but Rios is more talented, cheaper, and younger. Hunter has gotten more out of his ability though, a lot more. QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:57 AM) There's no question that Rios has the talent, but I don't like all of these rumors about his work ethic. He's declined over the past three seasons and was an absolute failure at the plate in Chicago last year. Of course, I expect Rios to rebound, but to what extent? It's far from a lock that he'll return to his '06 and '07 numbers. And even if he gets back to his '08 numbers, he's still overpaid in this market. Kenny gambled on a bad contract. I (obviously) hope that it works out, but I'm not holding my breath. Rumors are rumors. Toronto was probably one of the least desirable places to play given how difficult it is for them to compete in their division in general, plus all the clubhouse issues with management, etc. There are all kinds of reasons for Rios to lack motivation, and since Rios was one of the big 3 names there (with Halladay and Wells) it makes sense that, true or not, Rios would get all kinds of labels and rumors attached to him. None of this stuff matters. He struggled with a new team, so what? Remember how bad Dye sucked when he first got here in 2005? Disagree he's overpaid also. He currently looks overpaid because of his last 2 seasons, but I doubt that is indicative of his future here. He's not old, he's not hurt, and he's in a great new environment. He's signed into his prime, not through it, and it wasn't too long ago when he would have cost a fortune both in talent and dollars to acquire and extend. QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:57 AM) Kenny had a crapload of holes to fill this off-season and spent like drunken politician last summer, so it's not that surprising that he rounded the lineup out with cheap options like Teahen and Vizquel, took a low-risk gamble on Jones, and got a good contact-hitting/base-stealing LF in Pierre at half of his (bad) contract price. I don't think that's necessarily a "backwards" way to fill a roster. I can understand why Kenny wouldn't want to pay $6.5M for Matsui, but I'm still baffled by his decision to not bring Thome back at the $1.5M or whatever it was that he got from MIN. THAT was not a smart move. No he didn't. He had a huge hole in the offense at DH and he needed an outfielder. IMO you don't round out the lineup with bench players and glorified bench players like Teahen and Pierre when you have nothing in the center. For the exception of Putz, Kenny went out and got all garnish, no steak. BTW Matsui cost $4.5M more than he gave to Kotsay and Jones guaranteed - and guess how much we've apparently found hidden under the cushions to offer Damon? $4.5M. So I guess Kenny could have afforded that, and he still could have rounded out the lineup like you say afterwards, unless of course someone swooped in and stole all these coveted pieces that Kenny had to move on immediately. QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:57 AM) Overall, though, Kenny's mindset is probably this: "We spent a s***-ton of money on high-priced veteran talent over the past four years and have a one division title (barely) and a whopping one playoff victory to show for it. Last year's team was a major disappointment and was over-crowded with aging dinosaurs who didn't produce and took up way too much payroll. Why, then, would I want to over-pay for good-but-not-great-and-overpriced players on the decline, like Matsui and Damon? Especially when my team is already teetering on a $100M payroll and I committed $100M to Peavy and Rios just 6 months ago? We don't have the luxury of having a stud at every position. If we have to skimp on DH for the time being, so be it. If this team shows some spark and looks like it can compete it June, I'll consider trading for a high-impact player like Crawford or Adrian Gonzalez. Until then, I don't see a reason to over-pay for declining talent to go 79-83 again." Nobody overpaid for Matsui and the Sox aren't offering to overpay for Damon either. Nick Johnson and Vlad didn't get overpaid. Dye is certainly not going to be overpaid. Thome damn sure didn't get overpaid. All Kenny had to do was make a lowball offer like he's doing right now with Damon, and had he left it out there long enough it would have been taken. Kenny said right after Matsui signed that he didn't have that much money - and there was a blurb somewhere about how we couldn't afford the $5M or whatever Nick Johnson got either. Bulls***. We know now that they had that money. And nobody overpaid those guys. Kenny could very well have overpaid Mark Teahen with that extension, he probably overpaid Juan Pierre next year, he overpaid Omar Vizquel and Mark Kotsay it appears, and it turns out that actually Bobby Jenks is overpaid too, but he damn sure wouldn't have overpaid a productive veteran like those mentioned above by offering them market value, since market value was actually a pretty significant underpayment in pretty much every case. Abreu is about the only DH I can think of who got good money this year.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 17, 2010 -> 11:04 PM) Sweeney, because we could get away with his playing CF (especially with Pierre and healthy Quentin on both sides), he's very affordable and it would have saved the questionable Rios acquisition. Using the Rios money, we wouldn't be having a discussion about the affordability of Damon, we could use the "surplus" to improve the bullpen and/or provide more depth to the back end of the rotation (although Hudson's a great alternative). For the minor leaguers, you have to go w/ C. Carter. Sweeney/Damon/RH bullpen help OR fifth starter (like a Maya type) >>> Alex Rios/Kotsay/Jones I think the point is more about who you would want now, not what moves you could go back in time and erase. If that were the case you may as well just go back in time and erase the whole Swisher trade. People are putting way too much stock in Rios' month and a half here or whatever it was and not enough stock in his physical talent and his past career successes. I have no idea why some people here can think Mark Teahen is just going to go off here meanwhile Rios is a huge red flag. Rios is about 10X the player Teahen is and he always will be. And also, if we never did claim Rios, we'd have probably spent that money on Chone Figgins. My guess would be Figgins at third with Pierre in CF (ugh) because Pierre was always one those players that I think we all knew we'd one day end up with. The Damon/financial/$0.50 issue is only a product of Kenny's vision this offseason, which had the DH/big lefty bat as the last hole on the team to fill instead of the primary one. We had enough for one of Matsui/Johnson, or even a Thome/Dye or Vlad platoon as opposed to a Kotsay/Jones platoon, but improvement there obviously wasn't a major priority.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:34 AM) Again, I say...no matter how well they adjust to the new park, they HAD, undeniably, the greatest homefield advantage in baseball and now they no longer do. No matter how well they adjust to the new park, the advantage they had will never be quite as drastic as it was. ...and IMO, they were "always there...always" because of where they played. I repeat, their single greatest advantage over the Central is now gone. I agree with the top part, that they had the greatest home field advantage in baseball. I definitely agree with that. However, look at the Twins vs. Sox and compare. One organization constantly builds teams that fit their ballpark, the other does not. Look at the Twins of 2010 and the Sox of 2010. The Sox need to be in the f***ing Metrodrome and the Twins are the ones that should be playing in the Cell... ...which brings me to my next point. The Twins can out-slug the Sox in the Sox own home park. Maybe the home field advantage for the Twins drops off overall, but they're still going to have an advantage over us no matter where we play in terms of offense. The Twins' offense will work in both places and yet that Juan Pierre s*** isn't going to work in either.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:24 AM) I don't. The AL Central will be Sox vs Detroit this year. IMO, with the loss of the Twins 10th player, their home record isn't going to be as stocked with free wins anymore. I'd like to agree with you, but they're the Twins. They're always there. Always. Besides, the Twins of 2010 look more like the older Sox teams than they do themselves. They should adjust to their new park just fine.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:13 AM) I agree in general, but Kenny broke that rule big-time with Rios. One could argue that Rios' contract froze Kenny out of the Damon/Abreu sweepstakes. Kenny was willing to go 5/$75M with Hunter, so Rios isn't a problem. And I'm not buying any of this "Kenny would take that move back if he could" garbage either (not that you're saying it, but it keeps getting said). Rios is talented as all hell and a signature KW-type acquisition. The contract will turn out to be a bargain if Rios can do what Kenny thinks he'll do, and I'm definitely trusting Kenny on this one. Besides, Kenny is only in this spot now because, like an idiot, he worked backwards through the offseason, addressing the smallest areas of need first and waiting until the very last minute to try to plug the biggest hole on the team. If we have $4.5M now, then why the f*** couldn't we afford Matsui at $6.5M back in December? I'd rather have Matsui anyway. Kenny f***ed up this year. Hopefully he learns from this and goes back to being awesome again.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:10 AM) "If we have the opportunity to get really better, the money will be there," Reinsdorf said. "I wouldn't hesitate to take the chance if something really good comes along." That's a quote from JR from this off-season, originally posted by Chw42 JR has done nothing in the past with the White Sox for me not to believe this. Now does this mean he's going to break the bank and overspend? No, but just because many people believe that Damon is the player that fits this description doesn't mean the organization does. When that quote was posted I think there was someone mentioning Damon as possibly that player. I didn't think he meant Damon then and I still don't now. A Damon signing now would represent nothing more than our owner helping our normally very good GM pull his head out of his ass with regards to the DH clusterf*** situation. IMO JR was talking about a major star, probably Adrian since the Sox had been exploring that.

My react-o-meter is currently exactly halfway between "f*** that guy!" and "Hooray!" so I guess we'll see. I don't like the sound of Kenny's comment either, but it could also be that both sides have made their final offers and are awaiting a decision by Saturday. In the meantime, Kenny has s*** to do. I see the current AL Central situation like this: 1. Twins - slight favorites 2. Sox - solid #2, very close to Twins 3. Detroit - solid #3, a few games worse than the top 2 and a few games better than #4 If Damon signs with us then IMO it makes us the immediate favorite in the division. If Damon goes to the Tigers it closes the gap considerably between the Sox and Tigers, setting up a 3-horse race for the division. Hopefully Damon's wife leads him by the finger in the right direction. She doesn't like that f***hole called Detroit, and who can blame her?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 09:05 PM) That will end up being of the biggest bargains of the year. It may even stick for a few years as one of the best moves made in this new decade if it turns out. Wang for that cheap + he's still under team control through arbitration for another season after this, and they didn't give up anything to acquire him. They could be looking at 2 years of a top-level starter for the price of 1 season of Jason Marquis or thereabouts. And worse case scenario, it's a low amount that they can eat if they end up having to without skipping a beat. I also love the Benoit signing too. There are some really great bargains out there.

Assuming we didn't have to give up anything for this player, and assuming bad contracts weren't an issue either, I'd take Carlos Lee back as the DH.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 10:34 PM) Shopping. Massages. Nails. Puppies. You sure do know women. Or at least the Super Bowl commercial image of them. And somehow I doubt a woman who uses words like "cosmopolitan" to describe ideal living situations drives a truck for a living. Just a guess, but I imagine she's used to being pampered and as a result doesn't exactly jump for joy at the thought of sleeping in a cardboard box somewhere in West Baghdad. But what do I know, maybe a better approach to luring Damon here would involve offering his wife a can of Skoal and a couple tickets to NASCAR? I'm just trying to help, that's all.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 10:06 PM) If the goal for Damon is next year's FA market, Detroit is not the place to be for one year. We have that and the personal connections going for us. And Damon will also be one year older and one year closer to retirement. And if Damon has a down year in '10 then he'll be where Dye and Thome are this offseason. If Detroit has 2/$14M on the table then Damon would be a fool to pass that up. I hope that offer isn't true.

f*** golf. Golf is stupid and it's not going to help anyway. The Sox shouldn't be wooing Damon, they should be wooing Damon's wife. Get one of Jerry's daughters to take the lady shopping. Get her a massage. Get her nails done. She's the one with the power here. Buy her a f***ing puppy if you have to. Just get this s*** done.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Feb 15, 2010 -> 07:46 PM) Most teams would be in a bit of trouble if their two middle infielders go down at once. That would be unlikely, but not as unlikely as a manager boarding a plane for a 7-game roadtrip without a healthy backup IF on the roster.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Feb 15, 2010 -> 06:58 PM) If we had 5 games over the course of the year where 2 middle infielders got hurt, I would say, "wow, that was ridiculously bad luck. That was unlikely enough that it was not worth wasting a spot on the 25 man roster to cover that improbable contingency." How many times has that happened? How many times has it happened to 2 middle infielders in the same game, in the same season? I would assume very, very few. And over the course of the season, how many more runs would you have scored, and therefore games would you have won, if you instead used that roster slot for a legitimate hitter to DH? That's just one of the potential problems with not keeping an extra IF. If you only have 1 backup and someone gets hurt then you have no more IF. If the injured player is day-to-day, then the team would have to play the 4 IF they do have every day hoping nobody else gets hurt, beaned, ejected, etc. in the meantime. Nobody gets a day off and there is no backup plan. If the injured player in the above scenario is a starter we don't want to lose, then we probably don't want to DL that guy immediately unless we have to. That means that if we want to call up an extra IF we have to send someone else down, but our team is full of veterans mostly out of options, and they'd have to pass through a waiver period unclaimed first. And even if we could send down a player who has options remaining, we not only would have wasted an option year out of sheer stupidity, but we would also have to leave the player down for a set period of time unrelated to the return of the original injured player, per MiLB roster rules. So we couldn't just send someone down for 2-3 days and then call him right back up if we needed to. It doesn't work like that. There's no way we go without a secondary backup IF. That's just stupid and it's not going to happen. There's also no reason to skip out on a pitcher either. If Johnny Damon does sign here then the decision becomes Kotsay vs. Jones for 1 roster spot, with Kotsay having the upper hand as a lefty bat and backup 1B. We wouldn't have any use for 6 OFers of which only 1 can play CF.

If Sonnen can somehow squeeze into the slot then he better treat Anderson the same way he treated Marquardt and just rush in for the takedown immediately, and say on him. If he's hesitant at all he'll get KO'd in the first. But then again, Sonnen is just going to end up getting subbed if he takes it to the ground. Yeah, I was a lot more excited about Vitor. The UFC should just give Anderson a fight at 205.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Feb 12, 2010 -> 08:04 PM) I thought the Blue Jays were going with Adam Lind. A's is going to be a competition between Fox and Cust. Royals and Orioles are the only teams that are going to flat out have rotating DH's. Either way, I don't see the Sox getting Johnny unless he goes really cheap. I think it's more to drive up the Tigers' cost like many think. The Jays also have Brett Wallace in the picture too.