Chicago White Sox

Yeah, this would have been a spectacular deal. Two quality SP prospects, one with significant upside, who also happens to be major league ready. That's the type of return that KW should be demanding for Floyd. If he can't get it now, then move Floyd at the deadline. Even if this rumor is bulls***, as it appears, I really hope there have some talks with the Jays regarding Floyd. If we can add two more quality SP prospects to the Stewart, Molina, Castro, Santiago, & Petricka mix, we'd be in pretty good shape to build a nice long-term rotation.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 5, 2012 -> 06:22 PM) You can never have enough relievers. If they do get Thornton though, that would be one hell of a bullpen. Santos, Thornton, Oliver, Frasor, Janssen, Camp, and Litsch (if he doesn't start). I don't disagree, but Thornton's $6 million option seems like a lot to take on, especially after signing Oliver and then acquiring Floyd. I have no idea what the Blue Jay's budget is though.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 5, 2012 -> 06:22 PM) You can never have enough relievers. If they do get Thornton though, that would be one hell of a bullpen. Santos, Thornton, Oliver, Frasor, Janssen, Camp, and Litsch (if he doesn't start). I don't disagree, but Thornton's $6 million option seems like a lot to take on, especially after signing Oliver and then acquiring Floyd. I have no idea what the Blue Jay's budget is though.

If the Blue Jays just signed Oliver, would they really want to take on Thornton's salary as well? That doesn't seem likely IMO.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jan 5, 2012 -> 12:44 PM) Think Jax would sign for It's not happening. What other pitcher are you talking about?

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jan 5, 2012 -> 12:23 PM) Not a chance on earth I know it will never happen, but that plan would make perfect sense. IMO, Jackson is an upgrade over Floyd. With him, Danks, & Sale, you have three long-term pieces already in your rotation. You'd just need Humber or minor leaguers to fill those last two spots. That would seriously quicken the rebuilding of the pitching staff.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 5, 2012 -> 08:12 AM) You have to admit that sticking to a "The Sox aren't picking up any portion of Peavy's remaining salary" rule this season would be nuts. If the Sox are below .500 at the break and Peavy has pitched well enough that another team will absorb $3-4 million of what he has left, maybe even just the buyout, and give something back that might prove org. filler, the Sox would be crazy to hold him. That's "Fire everything!" level stupidity. I think you're undervaluing what Peavy would be worth if he pitches like a legit front of the rotation starter. Once you get to the trade deadline, the price to acquire players usually increases, especially for starting pitching. Look what it cost the Cardinals to acquire Jackson (mid rotation starter) and some relief arms. GMs are willing to pay a premium at the deadline if a player is believed to help them make and/or succeed in the playoffs. With the lack of quality SP, the price is always crazy. We wouldn't have to eat much (if any for a team like the Yankees) of Peavy's salary to get something of decent value for him IF he's pitching like a #1 or #2 starter.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 5, 2012 -> 01:04 AM) They're much, much, much smarter and cheaper ways of acquiring OF depth. I can appreciate everybody wants Rios, Dunn and Peavy gone. But coming up with these ridiculous scenarios (not just you hi8is) that make no sense at all for the non-White Sox side is not going to make the impossible possible. Yup, people need to accept the fact that we are stuck with Peavy, Rios, and Dunn until the trade deadline bare minimum. If Peavy is both healthy and performing well, then he should be fairly easy to move by then. However, no one is going to take on Rios or Dunn until they've proven last year was anomalies for them. That may be 4 months of strong performance for some GMs and maybe a full season for others. There's no way of really knowing for sure and until they actually produce like quality players the point is moot. So Peavy will definitely be gone after next season and everyone would move Rios at a drop of a hat no matter how well he was producing at the time, but what about Dunn? If he comes out strong in 2012 and looks like the player he was prior to last year do we keep him? I think that's a tougher question to answer. IMO, his consistencely prior to 2011 would proably convince me that 2011 was an outlier and that we should keep, especially with the void of left-handed hitting in the organization.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jan 4, 2012 -> 09:24 AM) I think some of us do have an idea of the value of a baseball players and it isn't two so-so minor league pitchers for a player like CQ. The trade happened because the GM made some bad decisions and now needs to shed payroll by trading off the better players we have that will and were coring some salary money. We keep the mistakes, who are paid way to much, and continue to suffer. I understand you aren't crazy with the trade and I am certainly not. Reality though is it was done and it's over. So you are saying KW purposely passed on significantly more value to make this particular trade? Because two "so-so minor league pitchers" is what KW got for Quentin as you said. If that isn't the true value of Quentin, then he must have passed on better trades right? That's what your saying? The reasons KW dealt Quentin are irrelevant to his value. He's worth what is right now because of his current abilities and expected production, not what players like Dunn & Rios are being paid. Your problem here has nothing to do with a lack of statistics, but simply not using basic logic to walk through the scenario. Quentin is worth very little due to his own doing and no one else's. Why is this so hard for you accept?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 10:52 PM) Okay, in that case, they'd have to trade for him, so it doesn't make as much sense....too risky, giving up talent and committing to an uncertain pitcher who has never pitched in the AL before. He's in that Danks/Quentin/Jenks/Crede delicate year-to-year arbitration no man's land. And surely the Braves won't try to extend him unless they're 100% certain about his long-term viability and injury prognosis. So that leaves Kuroda, Rodriguez and Oswalt (that it could be realistically argued would be able to outperform Floyd). Isn't Rodriguez under contract too?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 09:55 PM) That KW has no vision. If this is all we could get for CQ, we could have traded him last season IMO. While that's probably true, he held on to him to keep fans like you happy.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 09:46 PM) I just can't understand the defense of Kenny on here. The Quentin trade sucked IMO. It's a no brainer to say it sucked. I guess nobody on the Sox we ever trade is worth a s***. To get two hack pitchers for CQ seems pretty lousy to me. Carlos arguably was the second best hitter on the White Sox last year. I guess our organization is THAT BAD if our second best hitter can't get us a haul of anything but two players who in the words of our own Dick Allen are "garbage." He's only under control for one more year, what is so hard to understand here?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 06:30 PM) Unfair. Unfair. Unfair. He has been great the past year and a half mentality-wise. Carlos Quentin was a gamer. I truly hope we have other hitters (aside from Paulie) who can get as hot as CQ does. I can't believe a lot of people on here mock Carlos for his injuries but refuse to mock Jake for the same reason. The guy had 483 plate appearances last year, but he's hurt all the time. Rite. I can't believe the mocking of our own on here sometimes. Last year - CQ 483 plate appearances, 421 at bats. 2010: 527 plate apps. 2009: 399 plate appearaances, 99 games. 2008: 569 appearances. So in the last four years, he's played 118 games, 131, 99 and 130. One out of four years he's hurt a ton. Give me a fricking break regarding CQ. He's a stud IMO. You are definitely a troll...your posts are beyond ridiculous.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 12:38 PM) About 95% of MLB hitters get their stats in bunches. The guy who is really consistent week to week is pretty rare. If Quentin hits 24 homers and drives in 80 runs only being good 25% of the time, he's pretty spectacular that 25%. I have nothing to back this up, but he seemed streakier than most. He'd literally go cold for weeks at a time and do so multiple times in a given season. So yes, all players are streaky to some extent, but there's certainly different levels of streakiness and different levels are more acceptable for different players. You definitely need your middle of the order bats to be more consistent than your bottom of the order bats. When a guy like Quentin goes cold for a month it can cripple an entire offense. I honestly don't get why people are so upset about losing him. Between the streakiness and the constant injuries he made a poor middle of the lineup bat. He's a perfect example of why you can't just look at stats in a vaccum. Yes he put up decent numbers in aggregate, but he killed our offense when he was cold or hurt, which was a significant portion of the season. He just might have another MVP-type season before all is said and done, but you'd have to be crazy to give him a long-term deal at over $10 million per year given his recent history. Therefore, he had to go and with Viciedo ready and able to replace him (and hopefully with more consistent production), that time was now. The return may not have been great (probably should have dealt him at the deadline), but it's about what should have been expected at this point. We got one guy with the potential to be an above-average starter and a left-hander who has some talent. Both are far from guarantees, but they add some depth to the numbers game that is building a major league pitching staff via the minor league system. Unless Quentin had a huge first half and managed to stay healthy, we would not have done better at the deadline anyways.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 11:55 AM) He's been worth that kind of money over the last 3 seasons. That's a reasonable contract for him. Unless I was the Yankees, I wouldn't be willing to offer that contract. 4 years for $40 million seems like a reasonable contract to me, but I'm sure he'll get more than that.

Why would a team trade for Floyd if Jackson is still on the market? The only reason would be if Jackson's demands are outrageous, which would basically eliminate us from the conversation in the first place. So basically, we'd have to sign Jackson and then deal Floyd. I just don't know if I see KW attempting to do such a series of moves. Reinsdorf has never seemed like the type of owner to allow KW to temporarily go over budget to pull off something like this. I like the idea in theory, as I wouldn't mind another starter locked up long-term, and I actually like Jackson more than Floyd (not even including the young talent you'd get for Floyd). However, I think it's clear by the timing of these moves that KW has cleared salary to make a run at Cespedes. Seems like KW waited until to around the new year to make these moves, allowing for offers to improve until he actually needed the cash for Cespedes, who should be a free agent soon.

QUOTE (Springfield SoxFan @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 07:28 PM) Agreed, most of the people on this board were upset about picking up the extension, so why not take a chance on two players that the Jays paid over the slot bonuses for. Not sure why people are hating on Jaye. He put up solid stats for a 19 year old in his first and only professional season. He may not be a great prospect at this moment, but he's got youth on his side. He's exactly the type of prospect you should target when trading a guy like Frasor.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 03:30 PM) bolded #1: because he quit. bolded #2: you really want a GM that tells the truth all the time? then you can have a team that is constantly in last place. bolded #3: you love Ozzie because he was a White Sox player with no managerial experience. You rip Ventura because he's a former Sox with no managerial experience. Got it. Thank you for mentioning point #2. Nothing pisses me off more than people (usually Greg) saying "KW lied about ______". He's a f***ing professional trader/salesman and has to lie to GMs, players, and fans to do his job effectively. He's got to hype up his own players, even if he doesn't truly believe in them, to build up their value. He's going to lie about the direction of the team to confuse opposing GMs and sometimes to help sell tickets. These are just a couple of reasons why a good GM lies and it's simpl part of the job.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 03:11 PM) I don't know why some of you guys consider Ozzie a quitter. Ozzie says a lot of things like all ballplayers/baseball people. Just like Kenny lied and said he'd trade for guys ready to contribute now. Lie. At Ozzie's age, name a better candidate to be a manager on a baseball team. His resume was built in Chicago and now other teams get to reap the benefits the next 20 years. Great. And we get Robin Ventura, who should make the game threads very very interesting this year (unless it's full of people assuming we're going to lose most games the next 10 years as we "rebuild") As usual, this post is all kinds of fail. Ozzie Guillen is a p**** who quit on his team. This is not up for debate, unless Ozzie suddenly became a white New Yorker those last two games. Also, for the love of god, stop claiming that Guillen is destined to do great things. He won a World Series for us and even his biggest haters, including myself, are grateful for that. However, what has he done since that season? You can rip KW all you want, and a good chunk of it is deserved, but he has put together that looked good on paper. Yet our teams have continued to underachieve practically every season since. We always start off cold and fold like a bunch of p*****s when the games truly count. After several seasons of the same bulls***, Guillen has to be accountable. Furthermore, Guillen's in-game decision making has gotten worse and worse, most likely due to his ever growing ego. He actually puts our team at a disadvantage on a regular basis. If I were KW, I would have fired Guillen on the spot last season for the time he pinched hit with Dunn. That was by far the dumbest baseball decision I have ever seen made in my entire life. I honestly have no idea how anyone can think he's something special? And what's with the Robin Ventura hate? Does he not make enough funnies to keep you entertained in Lawrence? Everyone here knows Ventura will be very raw next year, but after that it's anyone's guess. He could become a good manager eventually or he could flop out in 3 years. But stop acting like Ozzie came in with some huge pedigree. He had just as much managing expedience as Robin. And let's be honest, Ventura probably can't be any worse Guillen. All he has to do is look at some basic statistics (i.e. splits), stop throwing away outs bunting guys over constantly (and overdoing the stealing as well), not reward lazy p*****s by benching them for one game and then putting them right back in the lineup the next game, and not bring up contract extensions in the thick of the playoff race and then quit on your team when you don't get one. If Robin can just follow those simple rules, he's a decent chance at being better than Ozzie next year.

QUOTE (baseball17 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 06:21 PM) Does no one see Leesman as being a part of the rotation - or even the bullpen? What about Remenowski - I think he could be a good innings eater in the BP. It's sad that hardly any of our minor leaguers get any love. Leesman has a shot of being a solid left-handed reliever, but I don't think he'll ever be a starter at the major league level. If Thornton gets moved before spring training, Leesman, Veal, & possibly Santiago will be the favorites to replace him. Not a fan of soft-tossing relief prospects like Remenowski even if they've had minor league success. While it's not a fair comparison, I have bad memories of Ehren Wasserman everytime I hear his name.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) The other thing that has been happening rapidly is that the demand side of the pitching market seems to have vanished as well. The Nats, Rangers, Reds, and Angels have added the SP they needed, and Boston and NYY just haven't gotten into it at all, seeming to prefer sticking with what they have or to look for bargain basement additions. Personally, I'd say that compared to where things were in November, the demand for SP seems to have dried up more, thanks to guys like Gio and Latos appearing on the market when people didn't expect them to be. If we go into the season as-is, then the kind of offer we'd be willing to accept for Floyd is going to depend on what the team does. Unfortunately, we've already seen recently what happens when we try to wait on the market for a pitcher to develop, we wind up resigning the guy because the trade market didn't develop. And frankly, that was for a better pitcher, even if there's a cost difference of $10 million between the 2. Hypothetically, if an offer appears that is significantly better than what is available now, then I think we'd all be willing to move him...but right now that isn't there, and counting on things to get better seems to run counter to current trends. Until the Yankees, Red Sox, & Blue Jays acquire SP, I think it's premature to say the demand for SP has vanished. Yes, there are now less teams looking for SP. The demand for SP was so high this offseason that several teams decided to jump into the market and sell off their young, cost-controlled starters. The price for guys like Latos, Jurrjens, Cahill, Gonzalez, etc was insane but obviously worth it to some teams. However, just because the Yankees & Red Sox didn't want to pay the price for one of those guys, doesn't mean they aren't looking for legitimate upgrades to their rotation. Floyd isn't going to cost three or four top propsects. So once the remaining good free agent starters like Jackson & Oswalt sign deals, Floyd will become a very attractive option to teams that still have a need for SP. IMO, if at least two of the Red Sox, Yankees, & Blue Jays haven't filled that need elsewhere, then the market for Floyd will improve. Then it's up to KW to leverage those AL East teams against one another and try to get the best package possible. Obviously I don't know for certain if these teams will still need SP in a month or so, but right now it seems like a decent possibility that a couple of them might. I don't know why you think that's so far-fetched.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 02:22 PM) If I write a post that is based entirely on "If Alex Rios develops a work ethic"...I have a feeling people would scoff at it. Well none of us know for sure how the market for SP will look a month from now. The only thing that seems likely is that the supply side of the SP market will decrease as we get closer to spring training. So if there are still a few teams with a demand for SP at this point and the number of suppliers has gone down, it would be reasonable to expect the cost to acquire SP to go up. This is just basic economics. Obviously I don't know how many teams will have pitching to trade or will be looking to buy pitching by late January. However, IF the market shifts in the right direction for us and a team is desperate enough to offer us two quality SP prospects I'd take it if I were KW. I'm not saying this will happen and I'm definitely not saying this offer is on the table at the moment. I'm just stating that IF I can eventually get such an offer IN THE FUTURE then I would be willing to trade Floyd. That's the price it would take for me to move him now. Otherwise, I'd probably wait to the deadline to deal him. He's our most valuable tradable asset and I'd like to use him to get some young pitching.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 12:36 PM) What realistic sign have you seen that this is even remotely possible right now? If there were "2 quality SP prospects" available for anyone on our roster, other than maybe for Alexei, do you think we'd be moving on that? If these offers were out there, we'd have taken them for Danks, for example. First off, I said "if" we can, meaning at some point between now and spring training. I'm not saying that offer is out there right now or even that such an offer will even be made eventually. I'm simply stating what price I'd be willing to accept in exchange for Gavin this offseason. Second, Floyd at 2 years is much more valuable than Danks at 1 year IMO. I don't think it's that far fetched that a team gets desperate for SP in the next and would be willing to give up two quality SP prospects for Gavin. It may not happen but I don't think that price is ridiculous for a mid rotation starter locked up for two years. Third, clearly our definition of quality prospects differ. I'm talking about top 10 prospects in a reasonably good system. I'd prefer one of those guys to be a top 100 prospect, but would not expect anyone in the top 30 or 40. Is that really that crazy?

I still think we need to move Floyd if we can get two quality SP prospects for him. Right now, we have Danks & Sale under control for the next five years. That's two top to middle of the rotation starters right there. Humber is under control four more years. I know people aren't sure what to make of him yet, but I think he can be a solid #4 starter and worst case scenario a very strong #5. If those guys can meet those expectations, and obviously there are risks there, we'd still need one top of the rotation starter and one mid rotation starter. I think Molina has the potential to become a #3 down the road, but expecting anything more that would be a stretch at this point. Petricka might have the stuff to become a #3 as well, but that's even less likely. Not sure if anyone in the system even has that kind of potential outside of maybe a 2011 draft pick (haven't researched them much) or Santiago (simply because he's a lefty). Right now, all our other SP prospects, including Stewart and Axelrod, project to be back of the rotation starters at best IMO. Adding two more SP prospects for Floyd and focusing on pitching with our top couple picks in the next draft would go a long to help filling those remaining two spots.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 09:34 AM) Why would the guy take a paycut if he could go to arbitration and probably get a raise? At very least he would have gotten his last annual salary. There are plenty of comps out there he could have used in a hearing. There is no way he would have gotten a raise. Frasor made $3.5 million last year, which is already on the high-end for an average right-handed setup man. He didn't have a great season in 2011 and is already 34 years old. IMO, the Sox would have had the upper hand in abritration. I honestly think a $3 million arbitration offer would have won if Frasor seeked a raise, so worst case scenario is he's back at $3.5. Best case scenario he's back at $3.0 million. Either way, it's cheaper than his $3.75 million option.