kitekrazy

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 26, 2013 -> 01:32 PM) Yet somehow...."No Whiners!" or "Stop Complaining/Moaning" doesn't seem like the greatest marketing slogan, either. There's no way of attracting fans without insulting our fanbase? Because if we're waiting for the older fans to die out...why aren't we seeing increased attendance from that younger generation of fans in their 20's and 30's who have grown up with mostly KW teams and a World Series winner? Aren't they also the ones who are complacent and hypercritical, whereas it's more the older fans in their 40's and 50's who have always tended to be more supportive/patient, as they'd already gone through decades of bad Sox baseball....namely, for most of the 60's, 70's and 80's? They have done that to a point. Fandom is often passed down to generations. Sportsvision and the strike are two black eyes to this organization. No back to back post seasons. If it is the fans then move the team. It works as long as they never had an MBL team and eventually you will have to win there as well. Maybe they should move to Oklahoma.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 28, 2013 -> 11:52 AM) White Sox fans are the only fans in MLB that get mad at their team for trying to win. I think fans view this season as not trying to win. Resigning players, getting involved more in free agency is usually a baseball fan's definition of trying to win. They've done this in the past and seem to fail at it lately. If they do a fire sale then it will be 100% proof. At least Marty will be happy. If they somehow get Jaun Pierre through those trades, Marty will be getting a season ticket skybox.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ May 28, 2013 -> 11:43 AM) I don't think comparing and contrasting the NFL and the MLB and their handling of busts brings anything to the argument. The two leagues operate differently. Not as much as you think. Even top level NFL free agents get a longer rope. They might get benched in the last year of their contract unless you can get draft picks. Obvious draft picks are more meaningful in the NFL.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 28, 2013 -> 12:33 PM) I don't think it's going to be nearly as fun to have that attitude when they're paying the last few years of Fielder's deal. Detroit media was very critical of that deal. Not so much about the length but they overpaid since no one was biting early on the agent's demand. At least it made Hendry proud.

Cooper needs to use his magic wand if there is anything left of it.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 28, 2013 -> 12:55 PM) That's part of the equation, but this isn't fantasy baseball. Guys get paychecks, and with the new rules with the draft, stud minor leaugers are going to be more difficult to pry away. So you still aren't ready to go out on a limb and tell us what type of prospects the Sox should expect in return, just make it an auction, and best bid wins. No reserve. Correct? Do we dare trust this organization with others' prospects unless they are pitchers?

QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 28, 2013 -> 12:51 PM) Trade value correlates very closely to on-field performance. That usually happens when trading garbage player A for garbage player B. See Nick Swisher trade part 2.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ May 28, 2013 -> 12:13 PM) The purpose it serves is to make your opinions worth reading otherwise I'm finished with your rebuild, tear down ,he sucks ,send him down , spend money ,I don't know who I want or even what kind of team I want posts. Should we make it a poll?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 28, 2013 -> 10:56 AM) I think that because Cubs fans have embraced their rebuild, they don't care if they lose anymore. This won't be interesting again until there's at least SOMETHING at stake. I think Cubs fans care, not the fans of Wrigley. I always wondered if the outsiders in the baseball world knew what a mess their organization is. They had some of biggest attitude problems, 2 great young starters who declined, signed attitude problems. ROY catcher that's barely in baseball. Former big time roid user. It was an embarrassing organization. I think the Cubune did a great job of protecting them.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 25, 2013 -> 01:00 AM) http://insidesportsillustrated.com/ The St. Louis Cardinals are the most consistent franchise in baseball due to an organizational philosophy dedicated to measured and constant evolution, writes Ben Reiter in this week’s Sports Illustrated. At the forefront of their sustained success is diverse and dominant starting pitching, made up this season by a rotation of Adam Wainwright, Shelby Miller, Jamie Garcia, Lance Lynn and Jake Westbrook—all of whom appear on SI’s cover. The cover is inspired by the iconic October 7, 1968, SI cover that featured Roger Maris, Tim McCarver, Bob Gibson, Mike Shannon and Lou Brock. “When we think of the Cardinals, we think of a distinct organizational culture: Anodyne, diligent, supportive, resolute,” says Reiter. “Mostly, we think of consistency. Their 11 championships have been well distributed. No son or daughter of St Louis born since 1902 has reached the age of 25 without having lived through at least one victory parade.” (PAGE 64) At week’s end the Cardinals sit atop the National League with just nine players from their 2012 championship team. They are there, in large measure, because of a starting rotation that has been historically good. “The Cardinals have ended up with such a rotation by doing what they’ve always done, and what any team or corporation ought to do if it seeks success in the long term. Which is to ceaselessly, though judiciously, innovate,” says Reiter. (PAGE 64) When the game had become power crazy, former longtime St. Louis pitching coach Dave Duncan worked with the team’s pitchers to mix in ground ball inducing two-seam fastballs since he believed most pitchers only stood a chance by keeping their deliveries down in the strike zone. Wainwright busted on the scene as a closer late in the Cardinals 2006 title run throwing the two-seamer, and continues to use it now as the rotation’s ace and leader. However, when John Mozeliak was promoted to G.M., in 2007, Duncan began to lobby him to add power pitchers to the mix, especially since home runs were on the decline. “We decided to emphasize not just pitchers who were throwing hard, but guys we thought might throw harder in the future,” says Mozeliak. (PAGE 67) Within three years they drafted Lynn, Miller and also added Trevor Rosenthal and Carlos Martinez, each of whom throw around 100 mph from the bullpen and could be future starters—perhaps very soon since Garcia and Westbrook both recently were placed on the disabled list. The Cardinals have evolved financially, too, as they made the difficult choice to not re-sign Albert Pujols before last season. “Losing an iconic player was not easy—it was jolting,” says Mozeliak. “From a very simplistic standpoint, [once we let him go] we knew we had resources to deploy elsewhere.” (PAGE 67) The flexibility led to extensions for Wainwright and Gold Glove catcher Yadier Molina. “While an overriding ethos—the Cardinal way—has developed over the years, it is flexible enough to allow the team to capitalize on the game’s changing realities better than any other,” says Reiter (PAGE 65) This one had the Twins' fans crying in their beers with the 10 game losing streak, the near no-hitter, the lack of financial flexibility with the Mauer deal....and seemingly stuck with Gardy, Rick Anderson and Terry Ryan for the foreseeable future. As if we are any better. What's the chances of the Sox organization becoming anything like the Cardinal organization? Maybe.....Reinsdorf still has this fascination of LaRussa. Remember the rumor mill with LaRussa's retirement.

QUOTE (MAX @ May 26, 2013 -> 12:23 AM) I guess what I am saying is that I bet someone in the sox organization thought that at one time, our catchers had all of those skills to a passable extent as well. Or equally determined self-important ones. Probably not. The Sox seem to be really bad in developing catchers. I don't think I can even name a Sox catcher after Fisk and before AJ. So they had to get them via free agency. AJ had a high baseball IQ and it came from another organization. This is probably the least glamorous position in baseball after the careers of Bench, Fisk, Munson and Simmons came to an end. I would imagine any organization that has a good hitting catcher converts them to another position. It's probably hard to find a good coach at this position.

QUOTE (TRU @ May 27, 2013 -> 08:33 PM) Ide be surprised if this team wasnt 8-10 games out of first in mid July. We dont have the offense to compete this year and if guys like Rios, Peavy, Crain, etc. keep performing at a high level they will be in demand come deadline time and I sure hope that we are dealing these guys and not adding. Then what?

QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 28, 2013 -> 12:44 PM) ROFL! Ya got me good with that one. It's like you are so involved in a fantasy sports team while the rest of the group is dealing with the current for real major league team.

QUOTE (hawksfan61 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:56 AM) I think in five years both plans have about the same chance to succeed. However under the "re-tool" plan you haven't alienated the fanbase and presumably have some talent on the major league level to work with (if you are winning 80-82 games then you have some guys that can play). Under the set the world on fire plan in THEORY you could end up with the Rays (we will ignore the fact that they were godawful for 10 years before they became a 90 win team) but you also have a great chance to become the Pirates, Royals, Mariners, etc. I would rather delude myself with the re-tool method, because nothing about being out of the race on opening day for 5-7 years sounds appealing to me. All-stars can be found anywhere in the draft, ask the Angels and Cardinals. I would rather do it that way. That means having good scouts and keeping your owner from drafting the agent instead of the player.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 26, 2013 -> 07:12 PM) Marty Is one of those guys that loves to point out failure. Keppinger at SS is a dream scenerio for him. If he could only see that every time he posts. When I think of sports stupidy, outside of Bleedcoltblue, he is on the tops of my list.

QUOTE (VAfan @ May 27, 2013 -> 03:00 PM) We all know that Adam Dunn is not hitting well. 164 ABs, .159 .254 .402 .656 -0.5 WAR 64Ks. He's not the worst hitter on the team. Below him with -0.7 WAR is Konerko, and Jeff Keppinger (2 walks) is at -1.2 WAR. What I don't understand is how Robin can trot out a lineup card with Dunn and Konerko in the middle day after day after day. We've played 48 games. Why are these guys still near the top of the lineup? In NFL football, once teams acquire players, they tend to play the best players, regardless of contract or draft pedigree. They don't care who you are, just what you can do on the field. Robin needs to apply some of that to the Sox lineup. In terms of performance in 2013, this is what the Sox lineup should look like. 1. R - Ramirez - .323 OBP, .675 OPS 2. L - De Aza - .712 OPS 3. R - Rios - .885 OPS 4. R - Viciedo - .797 OPS 5. L - Gillaspie - .788 OPS 6. R - Konerko - .658 OPS 7. L - Dunn - .656 OPS 8. R - Flowers/Giminez - .614/.717 OPS 9. R - Greene - .637 OPS When Beckham returns, you could slot him last, but if he hits, move him up. Jeff Keppinger should be a bench player right now. This would be a much more logical lineup. If Dunn and Konerko start to hit better, move them up. For right now, Viciedo and Gillaspie are hitting much better and deserve the 4-5 slots in the order. Why Ramirez over De Aza at the top of the lineup? First, his OBP is much higher, .323 instead of .292. Second, he has 8 steals to De Aza's 5. And with De Aza behind him, if Ramirez get's on second, then De Aza's pull tendencies are helpful to move Ramirez over. Plus, De Aza has 7 HRs to Ramirez's 1. Better to have the power guy up with someone on base. I count the current lineup as a MAJOR strike against Ventura's managing style. He's managing names, not the actual team he has. And it's got to be costing us games. We've scored an AL-worst 177 runs. He's got to do everything he can to squeeze whatever production he can out of this pathetic lineup. Where have you seen that other than with rookie QBs? Remember Cedric Benson? If they were drafted and given a nice contract they always play. The NFL is just a guilty of that. Professional sports rarely follow that theory.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:43 AM) “[Quotable:] The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again. Oh, people will come, Ray. People will most definitely come..." Ivy makes you think of the past, of tradition, of Williams and Santo and Jenkins and Sandberg and Banks and Sunday doubleheaders. Concrete=cold, antiseptic, cookie-cutter stadiums, no personality, no memories attached It's pretty smart conjuring up the past to cover up the sins of the present regime. It does! I remember catching the end of Cubs games as a kid. Wrigley Field is great place to watch baseball. The outside of the Cell is a nice piece of architecture.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ May 28, 2013 -> 10:55 AM) I agree with what you are saying here. One question though: what happens when we *don't* win? The Sox have pitching, yes, but they have also run out far more talented teams than this one over the last decade plus which have come back empty handed. IMO, if we don't win, we get the following: 1) Peavy/Rios lose that little extra bit of value, especially Peavy. I'm against trading Peavy without getting MLB-ready pieces back anyway, but if that deal is out there, then he's worth more now then he will be in the offseason. 2) We potentially lose the opportunity to get something, rather than nothing, out of Crain, Thornton, Lindstrom, etc. 3) It gets harder to unload Alexei's contract. 4) Maybe most importantly, we lose the ability to audition players in August and September and then we have to do a repeat with several players in 2014 what we have done with Flowers this year, i.e. try to develop them but still expect him to produce early in the season while we still may turn into a contender. I think that if we don't win, all in all, we lose out on the chance to add some more talent to the organization, and we lose the ability to let that talent play for us whether that is at the MiLB or MLB level, and we also lose the opportunity to evaluate that talent over the rest of the season to help build a clearer picture of what we need to do over the offseason. I am not a proponent of "tanking" even though I do propose we make some trades which probably gives us a pretty s***ty record this year. But to me that's not tanking, because tanking involves dismantling our starting rotation and I don't think that is even remotely an option. Peavy only goes in an excellent deal that brings us back pieces right now, and beyond that, out of the bullpen we'd deal some guys who would likely be out of the picture after this year anyway. I would put Reed out there on the block to see if some contender is willing to give up a sweet looking position player or starting pitching prospect that we see as being only 2 years away or less, but even he stays otherwise. I think if we make some moves this season we will enter into the offseason with greater clarity, and after the next offseason, at worst, I think we'll enter into 2014 with a team very similar in quality and depth to the ones we had going into 2012 & 2013. Something for nothing never really works out. Since when is Alexei's contract a burden by today's salaries. We are using the Reinsdorf penny pinching ruler. Ugh. Wins and losses rarely mean anything when it comes to a player's value.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2013 -> 03:59 PM) Not to mention they have an owner willing to go into the red, even Forbes says they lose money, to keep adding players. It is an unrealistic model to copy, and I wonder how long it can or will be sustainable. His goal is to win a World Series. I like his attitude. It sure beats "competitive". The scenario is much different since he feels his days are numbered. The Steinbrener model only works if you have the revenue. I doubt they are losing a lot of money in Detroit. If you have superstars like Verlander, Cabrera and Fielder, how many people are going to stay home. Something the Sox haven't been able to do is have back to back post seasons. Those put fans in the seats.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ May 28, 2013 -> 10:05 AM) So teams should never try to develop players, right? They should just go out and get players that can perform now, and never worry about the future. Sure, makes sense. This organization is bad at it. You should also draft guys that have such things like fundamentals down. Also stop drafting football players to play baseball.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 28, 2013 -> 08:33 AM) I love how the guy on this site who thinks that dismantling the team and going with a multi year youth movement has zero patience for trying to actually develop youth. POTW!

This is probably the toughest position to fill in baseball. How many kids want to play this position. IF they can hit then they want to move them out of this position.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 23, 2013 -> 09:09 AM) Toby Hall vs. Chris Widger. Discuss. Bill Naharodny vs. Wayne Nordhagen.

Omogrosso's new name should be Omygodno.

Wilson Betamit. He still hurts the Sox.