The Ultimate Champion

The umps called it when they realized neither organization was planning on fielding a Major League team. J/K the Twinks have a couple (actually a few) pretty awesome looking young players. I was just thinking the last time we played them that if I was Hahn and anyone was going to get Quintana out of me it would be for that SS they got out there in CF, my god that kid is a f***in stud. Wish he played for us. That Vargas too, looks exactly like David Ortiz. Twins are going to be good soon.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 12, 2014 -> 02:57 PM) Well I think the article's point is to celebrate what an anomaly he was. I thought it did a good job of mentioned the super good and the super bad in his game. At the end of the day, he's been a fascinating player. I agree. Part of the reason no one could see his freefall coming is due to the fact that there's never really been another player like Dunn, at least I can't think of any. Thome was a very different type of hitter although they were both high BB, high K leftys with megalithic power and so that's why they are compared. But there's been a lot of guys who have K'ed at a high rate and walked at a high rate who had a lot of power. Maybe Dunn is more of a Jack Cust or Chris Davis or something in the end. Because Dunn has now existed and his career has been documented, maybe he's a reason you trade your Chris Davis or Ryan Howard or something after they put up a huge year at or just past the age of 30. I'm not sure who you really can even compare Dunn to in terms of a huge guy with a huge uppercut swing and relatively slow bat that nevertheless still can make enough contact to be dangerous (i.e. hit moon shots and get the opposition to pitch to him as if he's dangerous). Really the longevity of Dunn is mystifying. The only reason he ever gets compared to the likes of Thome and not the likes of Jack Cust is the longevity. But his bat speed, swing, and approach (at least with the Sox anyway) don't seem to be the kind of things you would find in a player that sticks around for so long. Maybe Dunn was just a roider the whole time & he quit when he signed here. What do you think?

I think it would be interesting too look for a lefty reliever in Japan or something. If we found someone I'm not sure we'd be willing to pay enough to make it worth his while to come over here, but it would be kind of an outside the box idea. I wonder who/how many people the Sox rely on when it comes to scouting international players that are *not* coming out of LA?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 12, 2014 -> 01:40 PM) There was some speculation with Abreu that there was a lot of purposeful misinformation out there. It does make sense. If you don't have much on a guy, you probably are more influenced by what you hear, might as well throw some BS out there and see if anyone buys it. Another thing to ponder is what it really says about the mainstream "scouting" types i.e. the guys that make prospect lists and so forth. Any of this stuff coming from those guys makes you wonder how great their access really is and how valuable their opinions really are. If you are a Major League organization, it makes a lot of sense if you see a guy you really like to either 1) keep things totally under wraps, or 2) potentially spread disinformation, And if you spread disinfo it's probably more of an attempt to try to bring the price down. But under no circumstances would you ever want to rant and rave about how much you love the guy and tip your hand, unless of course you knew you weren't going to sign the guy and just wanted to drive up the price for your competition. But even that would be dumb because every time a Cuban player signs a big deal and makes it look like a bargain, everybody else's future price just goes up, so you'd be shooting yourself in the foot really.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 12, 2014 -> 01:50 PM) One of the reasons the strikeout is LESS damaging than people tend to think (especially out of the 3rd spot in the lineup) is because it keeps you out of a double play. Dude made tens of millions hitting 450+ homers while getting on base at a career .365 clip, largely in an era of depressed offense -- he deserves an article. Just accept it, TUC. Your rage is clouding your rationale. A strikeout also makes it impossible to reach via base hit, error, or move a runner along/bring home a run via sacrifice, making the out either less damaging or even productive (an out can be productive if it forces the opposing manager to intentionally walk/pitch around other players to put more men on base, which in turn can lead to a bigger inning). You also took my comment out of context. Out of how many balls he actually made contact with that didn't leave the IF, how many were DP? Obviously other players will hit a lot more DPs because they put the bat on the ball. That wasn't my point. I was merely suggesting the author do his homework and compare the number of total IF groundballs off Dunn's bat to the number of times he hit right into the shift or GIDP. The author is right, most of the time the result of an Adam Dunn PA didn't result in the ball ending up in play. But when he did actually put the ball in play the vast majority of those balls were easy outs, either high pop-ups the defender could lackadaisically trot under or easy outs directly into the shift. Adam Dunn did 2 things great in his prime. Outside of his prime those things he still did but not nearly as well as in the past didn't make up for the overall s***tiness of his game. I wish there was a stat that recorded number of PA that resulted in a positive or even semi-positive outcome, because Dunn would not rank at the top of that list for sure. It's funny how the stats people love to s*** on the base hits and sacrifices and stuff, and act like a walk is as good as a hit or a home run is as good as 4 base hits. Well, no, that's not usually the case, and those things are only true some of the time depending on the specific game situation. Sometimes you just need a grinding AB, not go down on 3-4 pitches. Sometimes you just need that sac fly, or the walk you draw with RISP and 1B open does nothing in the end whereas a basehit would change the game. For the most part when Adam Dunn came up he did nothing useful. In his prime however he was so great at mashing HRs and so dependable getting on base via walk that you could overlook the shortcomings in his game. But White Sox Dunn was complete and utter garbage. Also I'm not hating, I love Dunn, just listen to what wite says. I'm just trying to even this thing out a lil bit. You Dunn lovers are taking over this board and quite honestly I find it frightening. I'm the good guy here. I'm the one in the right. You guys are the ones who are wrong.

More than half that piece focuses on Dunn doing things that are bad if not terrible. Why not count GIDP and compare them to total number of balls that stayed in the IF? Better yet, what is the record for hitting into the shift? If it's Dunn there's actually 4 outcomes: K, BB, HR, hit into shift. So he did three things very well his entire career: hit HR, BB, and be left-handed. It's a shame Thome's name is mentioned here as well. Unfortunately Thome (even though he'll go to the Hall and Dunn won't) probably will get the K's thrown at him all the time to the point where you forget what a great hitter he actually was. Thome could actually shorten his swing up here and there. He could also make an adjustment.

^Noel Arguelles, that's the one I was thinking of.. The Royals signed him, we really wanted him... but he was a bust.

Dayan Viciedo was a great prospect coming out of Cuba, I'd say at least as celebrated as Soler was if not more. Soler came later & right before the new CBA limits on INTL FA were to take effect, which is why he got so much more money. Soler was also more of an atheletic prospect, but Viciedo was a 3B prospect then who was touted as a truly elite all-around offensive talent. Obviously that hasn't happened. OTOH Alexei Ramirez was a borderline UT player and nothing more. Jose Abreu had a slider-speed bat and it was doubtful he could handle the inside pitch. Puig was going to need a lot of time in the minors. None of that was true. But then the other guy the Cubs signed with Soler was Conception who was a bust. Then you have the other guy we really wanted out of Cuba who the Royals signed and busted (forget his name ATM but he was on our radar too). Chapmann has worked out great. But then you have the guy IIRC the Rays got, the switch hitting 1B who received some comps to Kendry Morales. Morales worked but this guy didn't make it. I think this was Leslie Anderson IIRC? Got some Darin Erstad comps too I think but in a good way as a strong defensive OF & 1B not so much as a s***ty grinderballer. Also Leonys Martin in Texas, IIRC he was thought of as a 4th OF. He has done well for them & he's definitely a starter. He wasn't a big name target then but a lot of teams would have entered the bidding had they known he'd turn out the way he did. Also Iglesias with the Tigers, he was a defense-only guy that Boston signed as a reach. And they were right about the defense part, but he also was the centerpiece of the Peavy deal on their end and the Tigers wanted him so bad they sent Avi Garcia to a division rival for him. Not bad for a "reach" signing that wasn't supposed to be a factor. In short, take all these reports with a grain of salt. As a rule I love the way the Cuban players play. I love the way they approach the game for the most part. There's a lot of talent over there & I will trust our scouts on this guy when they watch his workouts. The first thing I'd do (and I'm sure this has already been done) is ask Abreu about this guy. If Abreu thinks he's good enough to hit alongside him in the order & if Abreu thinks he's a fit in the clubhouse and so on, then we should be prepared to spend good money to sign this guy.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 03:50 PM) Who's the 5th starter in that situation? Sale/Quintana/Noesi/Rodon/??? We're still one short. Bassitt? Whether it is Bassitt, a project or prospect we acquire or claim, whether it is a FA signing of name value or a Paulino type again (scrap heap vet) we can very safely assume Carroll isn't part of our rotation plans. And I think it's also fair to assume based on the Sox actions & things Hahn has said that we're not looking for a 4 or 5 lefty rotation at any point. This makes me concerned that we're going to dick around with Rodon. I think our #1 priority right now should be developing our best young players and IMO you have to squint pretty hard to see Rodon in the pen or Charlotte as something positive in terms of development.... unless..... Rodon struggles in Spring, and maybe if he has some mechanical issues or something. But if he's throwing strikes, blowing MLB hitters away with all three of fastball, change and slider then we're going to look like cheap asses sending the guy to the minors for that arb clock stuff. I'm already wondering if the non call-up had something to do with Borass dragging things out a bit and demanding the max we could give him. I don't want to play any stupid games with this kid. If he looks like he could be an ace and is MLB ready in ST then he needs to be in the rotation to open the season.

^My last post was confusing, but my point is this: We need 2 lefties in the pen, 5 pitchers in the rotation, and a long man no matter what. Danks is getting $14.25M no matter what, we can't do anything about that. Right now we're looking at Surkamp/Snodgress/garbage as that second lefty, and if we want to upgrade that it'll at least cost $1-2M on the open market. JUST as a specialist. Right now Carroll/Rienzo/garbage is probably the long man. Danks is in the rotation. At minimum, we're talking about 3 roster spots to fill at a combined pricetag of $15.25M or so after minimums go to in-house options. If we want to upgrade over the second lefty we're looking at something more like $16.25-17.25M for those same three spots. Move Danks to the pen, have him be BOTH the second lefty AND the long man, while putting Rodon in the rotation. This costs 2 roster spots rather than 3, it costs $14.75M which is cheaper, and we'd likely be upgrading all three of those roles (Danks > Carroll/Surkamp/Garbage & Rodon > Danks).

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 03:31 PM) My favorite is all the homers. He did hit quite a few of them. If you just remember those, and convenienty forget the sheer number of times he struck out, it's all good. IIRC he hit #400 in KC and some redneck dove into the pond for it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 03:01 PM) I was pondering this earlier today and thinking that Danks would make a very poor LOOGY since his changeup is much more effective against righties than lefties, but I'm wondering whether there'd be any worth in trying to have him close. If you think about it, even a remotely effective lefty specialist is going to be worth $1.5-2M or so on the open market. A long man that can do a pretty good job, probably is worth $1M although those guys I think are brutally undervalued & underpaid given how important they can be in eating up innings and allowing the better arms in the back of the pen to stick in their roles. All told if you could use Danks as a relatively effective lefty specialist and long man (and I don't think that's a huge stretch at all) you are doing the following: 1) You are getting your second lefty in the pen; as it is we need 2, a lefty SU type and another one, so we'd have that shopping list down a tad 2) You are also getting your long reliever as a lefty, which keeps you from having to take on someone like Carroll/Rienzo/etc in that role, which in effect creates an additional roster spot in the pen 3) As of right now you're paying Danks $14.25M to put up numbers in the 5 spot that you'd expect out of someone making $2M or less, and when it comes to in-house guys, you're getting numbers out of Danks that you could replace by running out someone making $500K. So you're essentially eating at least $12.25M in performance deficits now at the 5 slot, and you're thinking about a $500K guy (carroll, etc) as a long man and probably spending at least $1-2M on a second lefty with a pulse. So you're at least $12.25M in the hole plus the added $1.5-2.5M you're going to have to spend to cover the LR & second lefty roles, meaning you're looking at spending something like $15.75M+ for a s***ty 5th starter, a warm body second lefty, and Carroll or whatever (3 spots). 4) Move Danks to the pen, and should he work as a relatively effective lefty specialist and long man, you're gaining a roster spot and you're talking about getting maybe $2-3M or more out of performance value out of the pen. You're saving the cost of Carroll/etc. and you're saving the cost of the second lefty. So now Danks is still making his $14.25M but you have 2 roster spots filled and the guy taking over in the rotation is making $500K. So with Danks as the 2nd lefty + long man with Rodon in the rotation you're spending $14.75M on 3 roles taking up 2 roster spots, *and* you are giving Rodon a veteran lefty to learn a thing or two from as well. Plus Danks is Rodon/Noesi insurance. I think, in short, that's it's a smarter and more cost effective way of operating. I still think that if you can save $10M+ on the deal in a trade you obviously do that, but if you can't get anyone to take on the cash, you can actually make use of him and maybe make the team better. Of course I expect the Sox to offer to eat no less than $3-4M per, not move Danks, start Rodon in Charlotte or the pen, piss on the first 2-3 months of the season, run Danks out there as the #5 to try to save a few bucks, and in the end, just like with Dunn, they'll get really nothing for their troubles but more losing. At least with soemone else at the #5 (someone younger) you are potentially developing a future core piece. Danks going out there is pointless because while his numbers may improve enough to make him more tradeable, he's not going to pitch his way back to the low-90's fastball Danks we saw before, meaning that no matter what other teams are still going to view him as a back-end type and cap his annual value at $9M per or less. And the type of package they'd offer for him would reflect that, and it would be underwhelming.

QUOTE (LDF @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 01:57 PM) think about it this way, which came first the chicken or the egg? how can someone think about attendance with out putting the product on the field. you also have to remember the mentality of the sox fans. we are a tough sell and we demand high rtns for our investment of season tickets. the northsiders thing of the game as social time. I also remember back in the 80's the newpaper came out a how to define the sCrubs fan and sox fan. during a game you ask the northsider what going on, that person wouldn't even know what you are talking about. now ask the sox fan and the response with be given in terms of score, men on base, trade possiblility, the performance of pitcher, what the GM needs to do and whether the sox have a chance of playoff. The fans will show up when the product is consistently good. It's a very different world now with all the money in the league, in licensing, TV & radio deals, revenue sharing, etc. in that you don't necessarily need a packed house to make money and pay for a good product. Every year as a general rule when you look around the league the best players are playing on the best contracts. You can win with big payrolls and small payrolls provided you make the right moves. For us I would be shocked if we didn't have the room to take on some big contracts (it would be more bulls*** from the FO about spending a dollar when you only have 50 cents etc) but still, I don't necessarily think that is the way to go. It's probably better to look for decent values on the FA market than take on a bunch of extra money in rebound candidates that you're really just praying on. At least in the FA market vs. say Kemp or Hamilton you get to put the guy through a physical and you have his last season plus to go by as performance indicators. Re: Danks I think it's best to just save as much as we can in a deal, otherwise move him to the pen.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 02:31 PM) Agree hugely on VMart. He fits the profile of the slow-to-age professional hitter, as long as the overall health is there. He's a real game-changer for the lineup batting behind Jose. AND we'd be taking him from a chief rival. If nothing else, the strategy should be to force someone else to overpay for him, if the Sox can't land him. Some of the whippersnappers may not remember how good Julio Franco was hitting behind the Big Hurt. It rocked. This could be similar. Yeah & he's a DH, that's a huge part of it. Teams need to build to their own strengths. Our 2 strengths (as best I can tell): developing pitching and keeping players healthy. I still think the best thing we can do for this team is add another starter, because we're really close to having that really good rotation & it's a lot easier to build around pitching & defense than offense. But if you could pick up a #2 RHSP *and* land VMart in the same offseason... well... we could surprise some people for sure I think.

Anyway,..... back to the A's stuff, I really hope they are able to advance in the playoffs. Wite & I will root for them together, for very differnent reasons obviously.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 02:28 PM) I think this is one of those cases where a boy is picking on a girl in elementary school because he likes her, and he's not willing to admit it because that's not the cool thing to do but then he actually hurts her and he's deeply upset and then when people make fun of him for that he's all "I'M NOT CRYING, I JUST...I JUST...I DON'T KNOW!" Except in this scenario, you are the boy and Adam Dunn is the girl and now that the girl has moved away you miss her and long for her throughout the cold nights of the winter, longing for her intimate touch and to embrace her, knowing you missed your opportunity to do so when she left. Hey as long as I get to be the boy in that scenario I'm cool with it. The only thing I'll miss about Dunn is the.... uhh...... hmmmm.,..... uh,..... wait. lemme think..... uhhhhh.... ...hmmm.... Yeah I guess I'm stumped.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 01:29 PM) This was how I read this post. Also, Nolan Sanburn is still a pretty damn good return for what Dunn was. You are so cruel to me I can't even call you a dick. You're worst than dick. You are the empty flatugence existing in the wake of the dick's passing, wishing you had the resilence to sputter on your way out, but instead. stretched to your utmost liimits, you only can go silently, filling the room up with yoiur stink. You should be nicer to me wite. Also Nolan Sandobrn probably isn't very good. You go from touching 99 in college to touching 94 in the pen in the minros, I think Bassitt is probably best case given the saupposed secondary stuff - and not that I am complaining either, I'd take a Bassitt type for Dunn no question.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 12:30 PM) I am just assuming you are cheering for Oakland the hardest because you want to see Adam Dunn go out on top. I've never personally hated Adam Dunn. Really, I was just very upset by the way the Sox acted re: his contract. He should have been gone a long time ago, and whether Dunn was an asset to the clubhouse or not, even he didn't want to be here. The Sox were cheap and petty. They couldn't admit their mistake and move on, take the hit, and start over. They acted like babies over one bad deal. Dunn was a terrific signing at the time: and yes KW made it, but Hahn also negotiated that deal. Both KW & Hahn wanted Dunn, we as fans wanted Dunn (there was famously 1 poster here who didn't, that's it) but it didn't work out. I don't blame Dunn. I highly doubt he ever wanted to become an absolute disaster. Nobody wants to suck ass. If you're used to hitting in the .250 range with around 40 bombs and an OBP that rates you near the top of the league, you want to keep doing that. You don't want to fall off a cliff. But he did, and he himself couldn't seem to move forward and neither could our cheapass organization. And that's really the problem, not Dunn, but us, our organization. I don't hate Dunn. I'm glad he's gone but this should have happened along time ago. Now I know why Marty always wanted JR to sell. Where the f*** is Marty BTW? Our organization is cheap and stubborn as s*** sometimes, and Dunn is the classic example. But that doesn't matter. As it relates to the A's specifically, I love the way Billy Beane has really gone down every possible avenue to build a winner. I absolutely HATE the style of baseball that says take walks and hit 3-run HRs, but I LOVE pitching and defense, and smart baseball, playing to home park advantages, etc. and Beane has done all of those things. Too much focus is put on OBP and too much of the Beane hate seems to come from disdain for measures like OBP and OPS defining an offense, but not nearly enough credit has gone to those guys for running out beautiful pitching + defense based teams over the years and winning with a tight budget. IMO, and I've always been on more of the opposite side re: stats and stuff, but those are the guys who deserve to win. Those are the guys the baseball gods should smile upon this year. JMO. For the longest time people b****ed about the walk+3run HR style of play and so on but really the A's haven't been that way in forever, and even when they were they still had Mulder, Hudson, and Zito. But anyway Dunn is still a turd and that's that.

I want the Tigers to win the division. They have a lot of players I like and not really any players I can think of that I don't like. Rajai Davis is stupid but he's done well for them. I aqlso LOVE the way Illitch does whatever he can to win, I respect that a lot. Remember when the Tigers had like a gazillion dollars in bad contracts, i.e. Inge, Robertson, Maggs, IRoid, Bonderman, etc.? It seemed like they were doomed forever.... nope. They traded for and immediately extended Miguel Cabrera (why? because unlike the Sox they drafted guys who fell & played the same game the Red Sox & Yanks did, giving them Miller and Maybin which on paper at the time trumped our offer, even though our offer was better in the end) AND after the Cabrera deal they traded Curtis Granderson (gee, an org that can develop a toolsy OFer) and EJax who they pretty much stole for Scherzer and Austin Jackson, as well as Coke who did a good job for them for a while. Yeah I can't hate the Tigers. They have a lot of players I'd love to have and an owner I'd also love to have. Dombrowski is very Kenny Williams like, and he almost got burned by it a couple of times (see: Jair Jurrjens who for awhile was terrific in ATL) but overall has won a lot more than he's lost. And also, throughout all their underachieving - and they have done that a TON over recent years - they still win, and as a Tigers fans you are still expecting to win, vs. sitting here in September dreaming on the likes of Michael Taylor and Andy Wilkins. Kudos to them, I want them to win over KC because they try harder, they have better players, better ownership, a better GM, and they don't sit around waiting for miracles. What big move have the Royals made since the Shields deal? They should have spent to fortify that team, but Vargas & Infante were all they did. They're benefitting from Yordano & a great pen, but they haven't done enough. Go Tigers IMO. I'd like to see: Tigers from the Central Angels have the West even though I'd root against them O's have the East, but they're a nice story Seattle vs. Oak for the WC with Oakland winning Then I'd root for (in order) Oakland, Tigers, O's, any NL team, Angels dead last *Edit: I like Toronto too but I don't think they have a chance. They have a case of 2003 Soxitis, poor MB

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 11:28 AM) I actually hope Michael Taylor does really well. Not just to spite you, but because I would not mind him on the team next year. He hits the ball really, really hard. I hope to one day raise unicorns as meat animals. Probably not happening either.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 11:33 AM) Right but he's a turd, that was TUC's point. Not the hitting. Thank you.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 11:13 AM) "But what kind of manager is Ventura to have instructed his team to lose on purpose?" OR "Ventura is an awful manager, how could he win this game when the team clearly needs to lose to cement their draft position?" I don't think there's anything Robin could ever do to turn a bad team into a winner. I also don't think there's anything Robin could ever do to turn a good team into a winner. Remember: Robin is in manager tank mode as well and he's doing everything he can (whether he knows it or not) to ensure we have someone else running the show in 2016.

I want all the young players and core pieces to do well, and I want Danks to do as well as possible so we can maybe get some money back there. Other than that stuff I hope we suck balls. Perfect game for us: -One of our starters goes 7, pitches great. All of our core hitters get on base or hit meaningless home runs with no one on. Every time there are RISP someone like Michael Taylor comes up and K's or GIDP. Then those couple relievers who could be part of our future pitch well in relief, and if the game is pretty close or we're ahead, someone like Maikel Cleto or Scott Carroll coughs up like 9 runs in 0.2 IP just to make sure we're at a good margin. Under no circumstances would I want to help Dunn. And there's nothing we can do anyway, he will singlehandedly take the A's out of the playoff picture. Which IMO is unfortunate because I wanted the A's to win this year, and even with Dunn I'd rather see the A's come out of the AL than any other team besides maybe Toronto (who are also fading). Actually I'd love to see them win it all, after all the moves Beane made to try to win, and after all the s*** those guys have gone through even after helping evolve the game, I'd love to see them come out on top. Unfortunately though Dunn is a gigantic turd helping to weight that thing down.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 09:37 AM) I still see no reason why Houston would trade Castro despite the down year. I also still don't know why so many people are trying to move Gillaspie to LF. Also, signing Victor Martinez at this point is an incredibly risky move. Regardless of giving up the draft pick, you are talking about bringing in a 36 year old who is having a career year on a multi-year deal likely worth $15 mill per year. I mean, it's been so long, I'm trying to remember the last time the Sox brought in a 30+ year old DH on a multi-year deal...I don't remember how that one panned out. Oh well, I'm sure everything would be fine. You just have to fight with me!!!! Seriously you're smart enough to tell the difference between Victor Martinez and Adam Dunn as hitters. Also, admit it: you'd be excited if we went into ST with a team that was worth a s*** for once. Overall there has been little reason for excitement every season since 2011 which obviously was a bomb. The best things we were looking forward to were things like Sale as a starter, Abreu's debut, s***ty players finally being gone, etc. but over the last 3 ST there was never any reason to consider the Sox a contender for anything.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 11, 2014 -> 09:33 AM) TUC, respectfully, I just don't think Castro and Headley quite move the meter to push us into contention. (And trading Flowers and Gillaspie to get Castro and then replacing him with Chase make our team payroll go up $10-15 million but AT BEST put us around the .500 mark, and that's being EXTREMELY optimistic IMO). They're solid veteran players, but it just feels like a "place-holding" move, waiting for 2016. Same thing with a declining Andre Ethier. I would like to see a risk taken, whether it's on Shields, or Josh Hamilton, or Matt Kemp. Or even dumping John Danks, although we all know how likely that is to actually happen, being White Sox fans. Sure, Keppinger and Downs were pushed out the door, but those are different situations and nothing like the money involved with Danks. I think Castro is a much better player than he showed this year. OTOH I am not convinced Flowers will be anything but maddening and streaky, and while I like Gillaspie, in the right deal I'd consider. Also I wouldn't expect Headley to be a 2012 Headley smacking out 30 HR and hitting for average and yadda yadda yadda, I was thinking something more like Joe Crede pre-back issues, i.e. defense, some pop, a few key HRs and ideally hitting above .260 and helping out the lower third of the lineup while adding balance to the order. Buy low sell high!!!