The Ultimate Champion

QUOTE (fathom @ May 22, 2013 -> 10:30 PM) I totally get the point you're making, it's just going to be very hard to build a successful organization that way given the horrible farm system the White Sox have. We need to make the right moves. That's what our FO people are there for. They're supposed to have oodles and oodles of information on every player out there. There are supposed to be scouts out there doing work looking for our next SS, CF, RF, 1B, etc. There is some talent on the farm to trade, but a lot of the position players have holes in their swings big enough to drive a truck through, so how about trading some MLB pieces? We should I think. We should have done that over the offseason. And we don't need sexy names, we just need results. Look for another Uribe (cost Aaron Miles), look for another buy low/fallen out of favor type like Floyd was, etc. We can do all of that if our people are doing their jobs. We just need to identify the players, make the moves, and we need to get cracking on this s*** because deals take time to get done, and after the deadline you've only got 2 months worth of audition time to help you make decisions over the winter. Can't be sitting around with our thumbs up our asses wondering if we're a contender or not. JMO.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2013 -> 10:23 PM) You mean you're not on the C. Sanchez/Walker (let's face it, he received more notoriety because of his being the first player drafted that year)/Thompson/Mitchell bandwagons anymore, haha? But yeah, other than Daniel Webb replacing Jones/Crain/Lindstrom....not many internal candidates. Wilkins and Black have hit well, but they're more likely to be organizational filler...although if they don't replace Konerko from outside the organization, they will both get shots at 1B. Of course, the results won't be pretty next year if they did choose to go in that direction. And maybe some of those players can be packaged together for a player in another organization who will help us in 2014. And Jesus we're not going to be running out the likes of those 2 as starting 1B. My God.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 22, 2013 -> 10:18 PM) Problem is the team's going to have to spend money to fill a lot of their holes this coming offseason. There's just nothing in the pipeline in the minors, outside of maybe Phegley/Johnson, that's going to be able to make an impact next year in the majors. They will have their payroll and they will probably meet it or come to it because they won't go full tank job, yes. But that's not the point I'm trying to make. My point is that money/payroll room is just one tool, one way of acquiring talent. The Sox need to add several more pieces, each of which will have to be under control for several seasons. Now the argument here (I think) is something like the fans are, or should be, in some way responsible for the Sox not spending more money. ??? They don't need to spend more money, they need to pull more Quintanas and Gillaspies out of other organizations and bring up more Santiagos and so on out of their own. I'm not sure why anyone thinks or would think that he Sox will be better off spending more money in free agency or whatever. We'd just have more money on the books with less wiggle room, and I'm not sure how that helps us.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2013 -> 08:56 PM) It has been commonly accepted by many at different Sox websites that the team is justified in not spending money at the deadline or in the off-season (if the Sox will be spending more money than they've earned or are projected to earn...of course, we've never been privy to that actual information, other than making educated guesses from Forbes, comments made by the organization, etc.) I'm not sure what you are saying here. Fans don't run s***. Their opinions only matter as far as it affects the overall business in terms of dollars. Apart from that, fans say stupid s*** all the time that makes no sense. One example: "I won't come to the games because the team isn't spending any money." Bulls***. You're not coming to the games because the team isn't any good. There is a difference. Also, money in baseball, at least as far as player contracts/signing bonuses, etc. are concerned (the "on field" stuff fans talk about), is a tool that you can use however you have to use it depending upon your situation, which differs team to team just as park factors will suggest on a team-by-team basis how to construct a lineup/pitching staff. Some teams have better front offices, better internal structure, etc. and can "buy" talent cheaply through trades while others "buy" players with money. Having a bad team loaded with bad players on bad contracts is exactly the same to the average fan as having a bad team with virtually no payroll and with those bad players making just about nothing. If you suck you suck, and the fans hate you because of it. Just the idea that it's OUR fault, you can't spend $1.00 if you have only 50 cents (which Hahn has intentionally avoided discussing, seemingly)...not saying it's ALL of the moderators, but quite a few have been taking the position that the White Sox are spending more than they actually should be (based of a comparison of payroll vs. attendance), which isn't taking 100% into account other revenues derived by large-market teams...which leads to the discussion of lowered revenues for tv/radio/advertising/sponsors by the doomsday scenario of us replicating the results of a 46-116 Houston Astros team for 3-5 consecutive years Money has very little to do with it. Payroll has very little to do with it. The team needs talent to win, and it needs to win to bring in the fans. I'm still not sure what you're getting at. It's not *our* fault as fans that the team isn't very good, and I doubt anyone in the FO is dumb enough to think that the fans have put the organization in the spot it is in. And as a fan myself, I actually *don't* want to see the Sox spend more money anytime soon, because that's only going to create more problems. They're best at being a value team and a lot of the money they've given out recently has hurt them.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 22, 2013 -> 08:54 PM) Last year's were just as bad. Not even close, especially since last year's stuff was mostly simple & the focus was on the game of baseball. My guess is you haven't seen the 50 minute long commercial with the pies. It's even worse than Swisher doing the worm.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2013 -> 07:15 PM) for its product, is it ever justifiable for that business to blame the consumers for the non-performance of whatever product or service they are selling? No, you always blame yourself, because you have to be adaptable and you have to adapt to whatever the consumer needs now whether you want to or not. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2013 -> 07:15 PM) It has been commonly accepted by many at different Sox websites that the team is justified in not spending money at the deadline or in the off-season (if the Sox will be spending more money than they've earned or are projected to earn...of course, we've never been privy to that actual information, other than making educated guesses from Forbes, comments made by the organization, etc.) I'm not sure what you are saying here. Fans don't run s***. Their opinions only matter as far as it affects the overall business in terms of dollars. Apart from that, fans say stupid s*** all the time that makes no sense. One example: "I won't come to the games because the team isn't spending any money." Bulls***. You're not coming to the games because the team isn't any good. There is a difference. Also, money in baseball, at least as far as player contracts/signing bonuses, etc. are concerned (the "on field" stuff fans talk about), is a tool that you can use however you have to use it depending upon your situation, which differs team to team just as park factors will suggest on a team-by-team basis how to construct a lineup/pitching staff. Some teams have better front offices, better internal structure, etc. and can "buy" talent cheaply through trades while others "buy" players with money. Having a bad team loaded with bad players on bad contracts is exactly the same to the average fan as having a bad team with virtually no payroll and with those bad players making just about nothing. If you suck you suck, and the fans hate you because of it. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2013 -> 07:15 PM) Obviously, last year, the team was in first place and the moves for Youkilis, Liriano and Myers were logical and didn't cost a boatload of talent or money. But this season presents a different twist, and there are even more needs to make a legitimate argument about finishing with an 87-91 win team. Not only that, but we're in a quandary about long-term development vs. competing in the short term, and we're in a precarious position trading away what prospects we do have for the 10-15-20% chance of having a playoff team this year, albeit one with quite a few flaws. I don't know what the Sox are doing. I don't know if they even have a plan. I completely disagreed 100% with Hahn's offseason and I hope he starts making moves to dismantle this team soon because I do not believe in this team as it is constructed. I very much believe in the pitching staff, and I definitely think we're only a few good moves from having a nice contention window again, but I also think we are potentially close enough to the playoffs under the new system to go chasing fools gold right on through the trade deadline and end up here in December looking at the 2013 season as a lost year of organizational development. But with that said, none of this has to do with money, payroll, or what the fans think (aside from me) so I'm not sure why this matters. And with all that said I hate to lose and love to win, and summer with fun, winning baseball is always the best. But long-term planning is what we need, IMO. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2013 -> 07:15 PM) At any rate, I couldn't think of any business or product where the response of the market was "tepid" and the management/ownership group didn't change the people in charge of marketing that aforementioned product. The only examples I could think of were non-profits/NGO's/501-c-3's (obviously different than for-profits) who were all competing for donation dollars....and many go out of business or simply disappear. However, you can't "sell" a non-profit for $1 billion dollars or take out excess revenues from the budget for the Board of Directors without incurring legal and IRS penalties. So other than the White Sox, is there is any other business or product that we can name where the consumers (or fans) are blamed for the failure or shrinking revenues derived from that product? You can't think of anything because you're trying to think like Joe Sportsfan. Drink 10 beers and then spend a good 30 minutes making robot voices into an oscillating fan and then you'll come up with... something, probably. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2013 -> 07:15 PM) And where the marketing team in place hasn't been changed...perpetuating the notion that it's the consumers' (fans) fault and not the operational model of the business itself? Whoever came up with those "Make an Impact" commercials needs to be taken out behind the barn and shot before he/she increases the human population.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ May 20, 2013 -> 11:25 AM) That would be fine with me so be it, maybe then KW will not have a job for life. Yeah because the Sox were so great before Kenny came along and ruined everything. GTFO. Greatest GM in Sox history... and that means EVA. EVA. EVAAAAAAAAA.

^Or any other team for that matter.

Not related to this crap but I do wonder what the Dodgers would be willing to give up for Addison Reed.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 16, 2013 -> 08:19 AM) A WS title justifies any trade. With Pods leading off and the money saved to acquire other players, that trade directly led to a WS title, isn't that the final goal? If they had gotten more talent, but not won the WS, would that still have been a better trade in your eyes? It's like the Cardinals trade of Colby Rasmus. On paper, it looked like they got screwed talent-wise. However, the players they acquired helped them win the World Series that fall. Sounds like a winning trade to me. Timing was a huge factor in that trade as well. If KW had spent all offseason f***ing around trying to get full value out of Carlos Lee then JD would have signed elsewhere (JD had another offer on the table), he wouldn't have gotten a lead-off hitter, Vizcaino would have been missing from the pen so he'd still need another reliever, etc. and he wouldn't have had the same kind of payroll space to maneuver. That trade opened up KW's entire offseason, and the offseason as a whole, even discounting the WS title, was a ton more productive than any extra bit of value he could have gotten out of Lee. The absolute best quality of Kenny & any good GM is being able to work quick and make moves without being scared of making moves.

TBTW The Balls To Win

Just thinking about this, but now that Floyd is out and our 5 are Sale, Peavy, Quintana, Axe, and Santiago, is this the ballsiest bunch of overachieving competitors in the league or what? And who would challenge these sultans of sac anyway? There isn't one guy in this rotation that is afraid of a bat, afraid of a hitter, afraid of a tough team or situation. Even with Sale & Peavy having the stuff they have, they are also pitcher's pitchers, and there's no doubt that Q, Hector, and especially BattleAxe are all overachievers who would make any pitching coach proud. This rotation has balls. Enough of Thunderstruck, we've got the right band but the wrong song, I say it's time to change the theme to Big Balls IMO. And if Freddy's career is over then all we have to do is get him to be a part of the minor league development staff and then we'll just have nothing but weighty sac at all levels waiting to come up and explode all over the faces of the opposition. JMO, any thoughts?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 14, 2013 -> 09:11 PM) But to imagine that they couldn't win 90-95 games with our pitching staff (keeping Peavy and maybe adding in Johnson for Axelrod, and not knowing 100% what we have in Danks)....and the additions of McCann, Morales and Utley, that's also impossible for anyone to say with any authority. If you were making the argument coming into 2005 that Dye (coming off a major leg injury), Pods (coming off a down season to follow up rookie year success), Hermanson (total question mark/castoff), AJ (character/attitude issues), Iguchi (KW scouted him by videotape) and El Duque were going to lead the team to the World Series that spring, EVERYONE in the world would have said you were INSANE, you agree? Or coming into 2008, NOBODY was predicting we would have a chance to compete again that year. Or in mid-May of 2010, etc. Or coming into 2012, off the disappointment of 2011. 2005 is actually a great example. We went into that season without any major holes. We had a complete starting staff with a legitimate prospect in the minors as insurance, a full bullpen top to bottom with veterans who could fit their roles, we brought in a real catcher, a real 2B, picked up a lead-off hitter for the first time in forever, etc. We had starting pitching, a bullpen, offense, defense, power, speed and a mix of veteran leadership and youth. Go into every season like that and, while you're not even guaranteed a playoff spot much less a WS title, you at least have a chance. That team clicked and we won. The 2006 team looked really good too but didn't get it done, but we still had a chance. When you tear everything down and trade everyone then you have no chance, and when you go into the offseason you have to address every aspect of an offense, defense, and a pitching staff, rather than only needing to address a few select areas.

btw theres nothing wrong with being tipsy at 10 in the morning

Sometimes you can spend your way right out of contention. The best teams always seem to have a mix of youth & veterans, overachievers & all-stars, etc. By filling the clubhouse full of egos you can end up with serioous conflicts like the ones between Ricky Vaugh & Wille Mays Hayes in Major League 2 when Hayes tolod Ricky Vaughn "at least I don't have a cover girl dragging me around by my johnson" which sparked the famous bench-clearing brawl.

Sox should trade Dunn to the city of Detroit for Mike Tyson's old house. Both are hanging around doing nothing, but at least Southpaw can f*** around in the tiger cage.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ May 12, 2013 -> 01:46 PM) Yea as Balta noted these "bold moved" are nothing but crazy. Let's see, the defense stinks so lets trade the best defender on the team so we can move a guy who hasn't played there full time since he was in Birmingham 5 years ago and then, we can put the excellent (sarcasm alert) Keppinger at 2B full time! Do you know how god awful that infield defense would be? Gillaspie/Beckham/Keppinger/Dunn/Konerko. There are softball teams in Chicago that have better infields than that. That's only a slight exaggeration. Furthermore, if the Sox are having a fire sale with "bold moves" the last thing they want back is sunk costs like Upton. The Sox would be much better off just working out a buyout with Dunn rather than taking on salary back in any trade. You want to bench a 24 year old Viciedo (who, by the way, has the 3rd highest OPS on the team) so you can bring in Justin Upton? That just doesn't make any sense either. Fairly paid, still usefull players like Ramirez and Viciedo are hardly part of the problem. The big problems on this team are, in order: Dunn, Keppinger, Flowers. Those guys are worse than replacement and in Dunn's case, he's eating up over 20% of the payroll. Any sort of "bold move" starts with committing to a complete rebuilding. That means working out a buyout or trade with Dunn (eating most of his salary), and then trading the few assets the team has, maybe packaging them together to get the most value. That means Konerko, Peavy, Crain, Thornton, Lindstron should all be on the block. Rios and De Aza should be available in the right deal. Everyone is tradeable in the right deal on a team this bad, but to suggest that the first player off the island should be Ramirez is absurd. I agree with this post except for the part about the Keppinger/Beckham/Dunn/etc. infield. Paulie is not in the future plans, Dunn is not in the future plans, Keppinger isn't in the future plans as anything but a UT player, if at all, and Beckham only sticks around if he comes back healthy tearing the cover off the ball because he's not getting arb from us otherwise. So who cares about that infield this year? Alexei should be traded if possible because he's very close to becoming a bad contract. Bad contracts aren't good, whether you are rebuilding, contending, or otherwise.

If we can acquire a young bat worth the playing time (and if would probably have to come at the expense of something we like) then you just eat Dunn's contract and let him go.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 11, 2013 -> 05:40 PM) I think the "end game" is to have the team lose 90-110 games for 5 years, then JR will be "forced" to sell the team. Since KW can't be fired anymore, essentially....and picking on Ventura is like blaming the captain of the Titanic for the ship foundering and sinking, better to blame the owner of the entire enterprise. There in fact does exist an alternate universe in which Ozzie Guillen owns the Sox and for the life of him Marty34 can't make up his mind whether he wants the organization sold or not.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ May 10, 2013 -> 12:06 AM) I kinda hate how we rarely trade anybody before their deal is up. But that's also a direct result of always being in the division race in July. I understand the thinking of the FO in that regard. Yeah, I wasn't happy at all about the offseason & wanted the 1-year left guys all gone sans Paulie, but that didn't happen, whatever. We should have, but OTOH the FO believed in the team & with a better start we'd be pretty happy right now. And if we'd dealt Floyd, Crain, Thornton, etc. before the season then we don't even have a shot at a better start. Anyway, the one thing that makes me confident is that we have a history of finding bargains that turn out pretty well. And because of that I'm not fearing a s*** season, because if it does go that way then we'll at least get a look at some piece which we don't currently have but will inevitably play a role on the 2014 Sox team and that will give us more hope. The one thing I just don't want to see is a mediocre up-and-down club that the FO hangs onto without holding a sale, but I don't think that will happen this year. Hahn's probably regretting keeping Floyd and maybe that motivates him to make a move sooner than otherwise. At least I hope.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ May 10, 2013 -> 09:52 AM) And now the thread is complete Not without a description of size, shape, and color! Seriously though, the original post, while well thought out, is mostly what we've all been discussing here for the last several months, and some of it has been a topic for a good year or more. We're trying to develop a new core, trying to get out of some big guaranteed money, trying to (hopefully) stay somewhat positive. I think we're pretty good, especially because we have a history of NOT relying on prospects and actually trying to win. If we have pitching then we have a foundation, and we have pitching so we have that foundation.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 10, 2013 -> 10:13 AM) It may not be this. I think I posted this elsewhere but as soon as he said he wasn't coming back until he felt "normal" I said he wouldn't be back this year. You can get medical clearance to play around 8-10 months. The knee is structurally sound. However, when you talk to professional athletes they say you don't feel "normal" until around 18 months post-op. Some speculate that it is due to nerve regeneration which takes about that much time. With his style of game and his comments about feeling "normal", it's not surprising he isn't playing. That's kind of what I meant but him not wanting to be out there, I mean if he doesn't feel he's healthy, isn't confident, whatever, then I don't want him out there anyway. I haven't been following the whole thing because I don't want to dislike Derrick Rose at all, or be pushed into disliking him. The Reggie stuff was really the only thing that got to me, but more because I would worry about the people around Rose trying to turn him into something he wasn't before, like a prima donna superstar athlete for instance.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 10, 2013 -> 08:48 AM) I wish someone would pass this on to Derrick Rose If he doesn't want to be out there then I don't want him out there anyway. If he's just being a dickwad when welcome to the era of prima donna superstar athletes.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 10, 2013 -> 07:43 AM) That will not be as effective as actual games. Working out doesn't simulate throwing enough. Side sessions are fine between pitching but again it's not like games. He and the sox are better off having him in the minors until he is ready. Just kind of as an aside to this, in the next CBA or hopefully before, there needs to be language that allows any team paying any player X amount per year or higher (like 7-8M or something) to option a recovering player down to the minor leagues as long as they feel is necessary for up to 1 full season and without having to pay out an option year whether there is one available or not. I think money, player egos, agents, option years, etc. can all kind of force teams to take back a player when he shouldn't be out there and that isn't going to help anyone involved. I hope in Danks case that he can come back when he's ready, but only when he's ready, without hurting the team, and I hope that egos and attitudes don't get in the way. Danks seems like a pretty likable guy so I hope there's no hard feelings if he has to stay down there longer than he wants to.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ May 9, 2013 -> 02:20 PM) Yeah dude, calling people names on an internet message board is JUST like ROBBING A PERSON'S HOUSE. Nicely done. Also, try to tone down the outrageous hyperbole. You've done it multiple times recently. Wasn't that an issue on this board last year? That was actually pretty fair. We're in someone else's virtual dining room eating their virtual food, and when we start throwing our virtual food around and playing in it then they make us go outseide and play out there for a little while in the dirt where that kidn of behavior is more appropriate.