The Ultimate Champion

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 05:03 PM) KW time with the Sox needs to end for good after 2013. You've seen him in the shower, haven't you? I can't see any other reason why anyone would be so jealous.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 03:03 PM) Don't shoot the messenger. Maybe Rogers is telling us the truth about KW. Phil Rogers is going to get nothing of importance from anyone of importance within this organization. Kenny IIRC has called him out publicly before for being a dumbf***, Phil's probably just butthurt about it still. Phil can go puff a dick.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:52 PM) First off, KW has been Hahn's boss for over a decade. Hahn isn't going to slight KW by hiring his nemesis, even if KW leaves the organization. On top of that, I'm sure Reinsdorf wasn't pleased with Ozzie's exit and while he may not dislike him, he'd probably like to avoid Ozzie as manager again a la Doug Collins. Second, Oney Guillen ripped multiple members of the front office and referred to select group of them as "nerds". I don't know if Hahn was in this group or not, but I'm sure he doesn't some punk kid ripping his guys on Twitter. And Ozzie never did anything to make things right. I'm sure loves Ozzie for that. Third, Ozzie is a selfish f*** who has a history of clasheing with his higher ups and Hahn isn't going to going to risk his career on a guy like that. Fourth and most importantly, Ozzie sucks as a manager. And #2 is the biggest reason you're not going to see Ozzie manage this team again, or probably anywhere else in MLB save for the Bobby Valentine-esque "think outside of the box" hire. Ozzie used his b**** son & Joe Cowley to attack his co-workers, ex-players, etc. in the media and then feigned ignorance about the whole thing. Who would want someone like that to be such an integral part of the organization, basically serving as the link between the players and FO, media & players/FO, etc.?

So when are we getting proven workhorse Brandon McCarthy back? I too still feel violated by Kenny Williams over that trade. f***. I'm with you Phil Rogers, I love everything you have to say, and I hope to share a few bags with you at some point during this boring season. And next time we see each other, I don't care whether you insist on it or not, the thinner is on me.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 09:40 AM) Don't love creating these $3-4-5 million quasi starters. We've learned that lesson the hard way with Teahen, Thornton and now Keppinger. Who would be the starter in CFer, in that scenario? Certainly not Trayce Thompson. If you give DeAza guaranteed money & buy out his arb years + a FA year you certainly don't pay him like an average starting MLB OFer, unless that year is the last year of the deal & there is a team option or a vesting option based on PA. You have DeAza start but you want to pay him under what you feel his performance would be, which is the whole point. Trayce is Joe Borchard Jr. until proven otherwise. I wouldn't think of him as a Sox starter unless he forces his way into the mix. Target someone else for CF who isn't going to K 600 times in a season & hope Trayce is a winning lottery ticket somewhere down the line. DeAza is a placeholder here, which is why having him at a solid price & at several seasons of control is a good thing. He answers a question for you (you can start him somewhere) but he also gives you the flexibility to seek out an athletic & perhaps lighter hitting CFer and/or a more powerful corner OF type. Also I'm not sure what was wrong with any deal we've ever given Thornton. He's given us terrific value above his pay for a long time, and even the fallen off/lesser Matt Thornton still is a pretty good lefty reliever even if some people want to s*** on him.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 09:32 AM) You would do that even taking into consideration DeAza's K rate, lowered OBP, baserunning blunders, inability to play CF (or even LF now) competently and his propensity for swinging for the fences this season? I think if they can't trade him, they'll bring him back for one more year simply because Thompson and Hawkins aren't close to being ready...and also assuming they don't want to spend money to bring in the likes of Curtis Granderson via free agency. With Beckham, I actually think I'd be more amenable to a two year deal....but not 3-4. There needs to be SOMEONE for the fans to identify with, even if it's a fallen idol. I'm not sure Beckham would sign such a short term deal. DeAza I'd want on something like a Keppinger deal. Give him the guaranteed money but you're paying him to be a really good 4th OF & hoping he outperforms it. I'd try to get him on the type of deal that doesn't hurt much if you have to eat it, but is also worth something decent should he perform decently & you want to move him later to clear CF for someone more long-term.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 09:25 AM) I don't think Peavy is viewed quite in the same category as Greinke, but he at least is under team control for 1 1/2 years at a relatively affordable salary, vis a vis the price of pitching on the free agency market. A lot of teams are going to shy away until he proves he can throw 92-93-94 MPH again, pain free. Agree. However with Peavy you have the very real loyalty factor + the competitiveness & leadership. You don't want Greinke's flaky ass leading anyone anywhere, and you knew with him he was going to sign somewhere where they kissed his ass and gave him a ton of money. As a result, teams weren't going to be willing to give up major packages unless they thought they were deep-pocketed ass kissers themselves, like the Angels, so there weren't going to be too many major suitors. Peavy is appealing to everyone if he's healthy. The rib thing is what it is at this point, but if for some reason people want to low ball us on Peavy, keep Peavy & get him a 4th year on his deal, because he's certainly not someone we need to "get rid of" and exactly the type of player you like to have leading your pitching staff both during the season & into the playoffs.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 09:14 AM) Insist is not the right word. Being open to the possibility...with Ramirez and Rios, as well as DeAza (and that return will be fairly negligible). Where the main argument resides is about what to do with Peavy. And there's nothing to be done for or with Viciedo, Beckham and Flowers right now. You ride it out for the remainder of the season, particularly in the cases of Gordon and Dayan. At this point DeAza might bring back someone with a really high ceiling in the low minors, not necessarily much proven MLB value, but if you deal DeAza you do it to open up CF I think. Both DeAza & Gordon could be candidates for 3 year extensions after the offseason if those players were amenable to friendly contracts. Both players have been so close to falling off the radar completely that maybe they would take some guaranteed money & then the Sox would have a little more wiggle room knowing that they have some cost certainty & a couple extra pieces to move around (particularly DeAza in LF/CF).

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 09:09 AM) I think they should deal Peavy, if they get the right return. If not, hold him into the offseason or June/July 2014 again, knowing you're likely to get less back. I'm 50/50 about keeping Ramirez and Rios. Without Ramirez and Rios, the chances of competing in 2014 dwindle to nearly zero. We can still make a legitimate argument that free agency OR trades will help to improve the offense enough to be competitive with a rotation of Sale/Danks/Quintana/Axelrod/Santiago/Johnson. That leaves the bullpen a crapshoot that could go either way... Greinke was traded for 2 SS who I would take for the future, Alcides Escobar & Jean Segura The Shin Soo Choo deal involved Didi Gregorius as the main piece for the DBacks, and I'd take him too. Rios should bring in a return similar to Choo & for Peavy we should ask for a return similar to the Greinke deals. If we get a SS in one deal and a young run producer in another, then you're talking about shaving at least $48.5M off the payroll from 2014+ which should allow us to spend in another area. Let's say we get an MLB SS + an MLB corner OF/1B plus a couple prospects. Then maybe over the offseason we take some of our prospects and acquire someone like Swisher was in 2008 (only not a douche) who is MLB proven & locked into a team-friendly deal covering his arb years. Add a couple value FA signings and we've turned 3 players plus their payroll space into a new 3+ year core of players. Easier said than done of course. We need to make the right moves & identify the right players.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:21 AM) Except the White Sox never have excelled in these trades. What have we got back in return when we dumped Javy or Swisher? Santos? Teahen and Jackson? Quentin? As I said previously, 2010 and 2011 are worlds away from the current market for high ceiling cost-controlled players when there's a cap placed on the June draft as well as signing international players. We can cite Humber, Santos, Quentin, Jenks, Contreras, DeAza, Loaiza, Quintana and MANY others who we've "stolen" from other organizations, but almost no examples where we're trading our older veterans and getting anything of quality back in return, and this goes all the way back to 2001 and 2002. Theoretically, it should be the same principle as a Borchard/Thornton, Gillaspie/Soptic or Marte and Yan for Matt Guerrier deal. But it hasn't worked out that way in reality. Second Freddy trade Loaiza for Contreras McCarthy for Danks Rowand as the head of the Thome package Just off the top fo my head, I'm sure there are a bunch more. The Sox have made a few mistakes (a couple key ones like the Molina deal & missing on Swisher after giving up all the talent) which have made things seem worse than they are. The Sox need to be proactive and you know that. They need to build for the next couple seasons. The only way to do that is to acquire players, whether prospects or unporoven/undervalued MLB players, who are controllable, since you can't sign a FA to fill every need on the field. Those players don't always come for free or close to free ala Q & Gillaspie, some of them we will need to acquire. And BTW we can still keep Rios & Peavy if we make the right moves around them. Crain, Thronton, Lindstrom however are going to have to go, I'd definitely move Alexei also, and I do like the idea of heavily shopping Reed, but not for another prospect who we apparently didn't even attempt to check out before completing the deal, just took someone's word on. If we can get a good looking young 1B & SS in here, and come up with a solid veteran catcher who should play at an average all-around level for another 3-5 years, then things are going to look substantially brighter around here.

I jsutr realized the small print says "Who has the most trade value but is likely to lose some" while the thread asks "Who are you lookign to trade first" 2 totally different questions

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 07:19 PM) Erik Johnson? LOL, what? Also, without reading any comments, I picked Jesse Crain immediately. Glad to see everyone else agrees. Crain should take a bit logner though since (if we don't trade Peavy or Rios) he might bring back the best piece. We'll need to send scouts out a lot over a Crain deal, mull things over, let teams kind of try to out do each other if they will,e tc. But with that said Hahn needs to make it known that he's available right now & if someone wants to bowl him over then the deal's done ASAP. Also Erik Johnson could be used in a deal for an MLB position player under control then that might work. He's unproven so I'd be open to trading him, but then again we have little RHSP depth so I'd rather look to keep him assuming the organization really is as high on him as they've let on.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 06:40 PM) Crain is going to make someone very happy this summer. I was a fan of him when signed him and still am. He's a good dude and he whooped some ass in the White Sox uniform. Crain in a Sox uni: 2.17 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, 10.66 K/9 Crain I think has been the best FA Sox relief p[itcher signing since Dustin Hermanson, who still only pitched for like a half of a season (but to terrific results).

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 06:24 PM) Who's going to play short if you trade Ramirez? Two days ago you wanted ALexei taken out behind the barn & shot, now you're concnerned about Tyler Greene or whoever? Somehow I bet youre like those people who go from one end of the world cult to the next, you get all excited becasue some nut is trumpeting the end of days & how god is going to come down from the sky & all that s***, and you have your date, but each time you wake up all f***in disapointed because theres still a world goipng on, so yuou move to the next cult with the next date, always in disappointment that theres noever enough msiery, never a robot apocalypse, no vampires or zombies or either, and if yopure ever right and the world really does end i guaranteed youll compain about haveing to share it with coakroachees, youll be like "f***ing coackroaches i wish this damn world never ended" because you can never be happy. JMO.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 05:58 PM) I thought you said it was easy to find LF, 1B/DH types. Why would they want to keep him? They're afraid he'll become the next Chris Davis? They'll probably keep him beacause theyre the Mariners & thyey have to. But seriously, in you lives in that part of the world, would you give a f*** about baseball? I woouldn't. I'd be in the mountains.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 06:17 PM) Tim Anderson. Because he was rated 299th by someone somewhere. Actually it is still bulls*** that draft picks can't be traded. Next CBA. Competitve balance pick trades will lay the groundwork.

Hahn should come out and basically say that Sale is completely off the table, but everyone else, not so much. It would take a very interesting MLB ready young player - not some prospect by any means - to pry away Viciedo, Q, or Santiago, but even those guys should be available for the right kind of deal. The Sox should probably get busy ASAP after the draft. Hahn's a contract guy but he needs to delegate responsibility & step away from focusing on pick signing unless it is an emergency situation. All scouts dispatched, make it known early that we're selling. When we get a team that is very interested in a key piece, that's when Kenny Williams pushes all the ladies out of bed, gets in his private jet, and does some real scouting work. We've got the personnel to make some nice moves here, but we can't f*** it up. Can't trade Crain, Rios, or Peavy for garbage. We don't necessarily need to "win" those deals from a talent perspective, that would be extremely difficult in the cases of Peavy & Alex, but we need talent and we need it now, not in a couple years. I want Alexei on the table right now for sure, I want to read a Rosenthal piece saying that Alexei is almost certainly gone before the deadline. f***ing do it. Yeah. But maybe start out with Lindstrom, he's a good opening salvo. Pow. Yeah. Make that deal.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 12:54 AM) Well, heres to hoping Danish can stay healthy long enough to become a RP for the Sox in 3-4 years. If he can stay healthy (always the biggest question when dealing with a high school pitcher) then even if he does end up a reliever, this kid doesn't sound like a run of the mill righty specialist or 1IP right handed setup man, he would seem to be potentially dynamite, like the type of pitcher you bring in whenever you need a key big out in a big situation, and 6 years of that kind of player has a ton of value. The point of the draft is to extract the most value period, and whether you develop & keep the prospects or trade them, that value is supposed to translate on the MLB field. As a 2nd rounder, a pure reliever with average MLB relief stuff would be a massive overdraft and a very poor value pick (the type of pick the Sox have made many tiems over in the draft), but the mechanics here make this a pretty unique pick & push the ceiling much higher, making it likelier that this piece ends up benefiting future Sox teams in some capacity. But again, should he stay healthy.

I checked the draft tracker & started to read about this kid & was like Goddamnit Motherf***er we went & drafted Drew O'Neill again, but now reading the other stuff, it appears we didn't, and we maybe got something of an extreme value pick here ala Sale falling. Very excited about this pick now, more than Anderson, but I like Anderson not being another K machine so that's good too. It's nice to get a hitter who isn't a K machine & a pitcher who is. Regardless of whether either of these players ever step foot on a Major League field, at least when you go with ceiling you are giving yourself some time to personally evaluate someone you think might be a real difference maker, and if you act quickly enough, should you decide the risk isn't worth it, you can turn around and deal that kind of prospect in a package for a proven player. Seems smarter all the way. And I'm putting this all on Kenny Williams the personal scout (unless these kids don't turn out, then he's had nothing to do with it).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2013 -> 03:53 PM) I would not give Jones away for a guy like Smoak. Jones is no where close to being let go, whereas Smoak is; Smoak will be arb-eligible next year and probably will be non-tendered if his current production holds. If they deal Smoak they'll want some ceiling though. What about Smoak for Flowers right now? You do that? Phegley lovers would I imagine. Change of scenery on both sides.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 6, 2013 -> 03:42 PM) If he were on a better team, I'd have no problem with it, but because the Mariners are so bad, you almost have to wait for them to DFA him to try and acquire him, unless you can seriously get him for song. Like, I'd trade Jesse Crain for him because I don't think resigning Crain is a good idea, but the Mariners would not do that. I'd also give someone like Omogrosso for him too, but the Mariners wouldn't do that. The middle ground there is a guy like Nate Jones, and while I'm sure there are some on here who'd have no problem trading Jones away, I don't think I could do it. I think in general this type of deal is a good one to make, even if it has to be a 3-way deal Sox trade: Veteran MLB reliever who is in demand Sox get: Underachieving pre-arb or early-arb player with a very high ceiling Non-contending team trades: Underachieving pre-arb or early-arb player with a very high ceiling Non-contending team gets: A top-2 to 5 prospect in a mediocre or bad system, or top-10 prospect in a very good system Contending team trades: A top-2 to 5 prospect in a mediocre or bad system, or top-10 prospect in a very good system Contending team gets: Veteran MLB reliever who is in demand

BTW I fully agree that the blackout rules are crap. MLB is selling the baseball version of wolf tickets.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 6, 2013 -> 02:29 PM) If it's off-topic, my friend, you should consider starting a thread about it. Your wish, my command. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88866

Creating this thread due to the following concerns: QUOTE (mike89128 @ Jun 6, 2013 -> 02:19 PM) This is way off topic.I've been a Sox fan since 1951.Living in Vegas I get MLB extra Innings package.But the west coast teams,except Seattle are blacked out in Vegas when the Sox play them regardless where played,the Oakland series is blacked out.I've heard MLB is going to revamp its blackout rules for next year.Does anybody have facts about the changes.Thanks

Alex Rios & Dylan Axelrod for Wade Davis, Eric Hosmer & a prospect Crazy, yes, but I'd do it. Take the flyer on Hosmer since we don't have any 1B plans, see-ya Adam Dunn, and Coop fixes Wade Davis for us, so that way even if we trade Peavy we've just got RHSP between Beck, Johnson and the rest.