The Ultimate Champion

I don't know about the bats yall are mentioning but I definitely don't want to see any more extreme high K guys in here. I know that's a part of the game for a lot of run producers but I'd rather look for better floors out of prospects/unproven MLB players, especially since we'll likely have at least 1 corner OF spot open, maybe 2 (at least 1) corner IF spots open, plus DH is open, and FA always contains run producers who aren't in extremely high demand since there's nowhere to hide their D. We'll have those spots where you can hide someone's D. Please get me lots of contact-hitting pure SS (nobody who projects to move to 2B though) and RHSP. At least one good defensive OF who can hit a little bit & isn't going to K 6000 times would be nice too.

Get busy Hahn. [DJ voice]You've got some work ta-doooo[/DJ voice]

MINNEAPOLIS -- White Sox general manager Rick Hahn met with the media Tuesday as talk of the July Trade Deadline already dominated the conversation. Hahn noted that he has already started to receive some calls -- as is usual once the First-Year Player Draft is over -- and especially with the position the White Sox are in, nine games out of first in the American League Central at the start of play Wednesday. "Given the way we've played thus far, it's not a real surprise we've had some phone calls -- more of the vulture-type phone calls, the type that traditionally we're more accustomed to making," Hahn said. "But that's part of the hole that we've dug for ourselves, that teams are going to look at us as potential sellers when the Deadline comes, and they're starting to lay a little bit of that ground work now." Hahn didn't want to assess the potential movement of any individual players, especially with so much time left before the Deadline. He did say that regardless of how the next six weeks go, they will have "25 guys in that clubhouse every day and a coaching staff every day that's focused on winning that night's game." But to deal with hypotheticals about any individual player would distract the White Sox from trying to turn their season around. Paul Konerko added that the potential for a team to lose certain players in a trade is simply a part of the game players have to deal with. "When it comes to that kind of stuff, I don't want to say you can't control those things because you can obviously as a team and as a player going on the field, [you] can control it in a way," Konerko said. "But all you can do is your best, and that's what we've been doing. I think everybody knows and is mature enough in here. … You just know going into it with this job that the management will make moves if they see fit at any time to do that."

You have to use every able resource to improve the team. If you can use payroll space to buy players (ala Rios claim) or prospects (sending vets out with cash) then why not? That's a huge reason why I'd love to be able to send out Dunn's deal if someone would take it on (or most of it) to get another player. That $15M next year would be great to put into a front loaded contract, a couple 1-year reclamation types on injured players, etc. I'd say we could eat all of Dunn's remaining salary & trade him but I don't think you get anything for that. Eating Thornton's cash however would bring something back.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jun 19, 2013 -> 01:01 PM) If we're going to be this bad, shouldn't we hope to be the worst? As in #1 pick bad? I was looking at some of these projections for next year's draft and that SS from Clovis really got me excited. 2014 prospects The number of losses being higher is great since it puts you in better draft & claiming position, but at the same time, the whole point of all this is to get good again, and to do that you need to develop players. When you get really really really stinking unbelievably bad then it's tough to develop young players, tough to instill that winning attitude, and you risk creating a bad/lazy clubhouse full of young undisciplined kids wanting to be stars/not listening to their coaches, you risk killing the confidence of your young pitchers like Q & Hector, you make it almost impossible to develop a bullpen (and you need to do that since you can't buy more than 1-2 pieces sustainably through FA), etc. The best thing would be for the Sox to lose as many games as possible while at the same time continuing to build their core players in a positive direction. I think that's why Robin is here actually. I don't know if we can do that. It's probably a big reason why Paulie stays too, although I would totally 100% do a "thank you Paulie" trade where I eat all the remaining salary & send him off somewhere where he has a shot at another ring, if that is what he wanted.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 19, 2013 -> 11:55 AM) But aren't you running a big risk of losing some White Sox draft pick/s? I can't even remember the vicissitudes of all the new draft pick/compensation rules, I know it has changed from before when there were Type A/B/C tiers and the White Sox went through this issue with Orlando Cabrera after 2008, "playing Chicken" with each other. Surely, the team trading for Crain's going to offer him arbitration, which he's going to turn down at the rate he's going. I'm leery of paying him semi-closer money simply because he was "Crain Wreck" in Minnesota quite often when placed in high pressure situations...and also going off the example of Matt Thornton, where you had a very valuable asset we never flipped while we had the opportunity and now we're basically going to be fortunate just to dump his salary and not get anything back in return. I think Crain has enough to do it as a closer. He's failed before, and he's not like a really special closer type, but he'd get 3 outs I think. Of course you are taking a risk, but Crain is a longtime vet & he has a lot more in his arsenal than a guy like Matt Thornton has ever had, so I think he's got some positives going for him. As has been pointed out also, the QO situation under the new CBA is a terrific thing, and it keeps a lot of the uncertainty out of signing RP on the open market, because no one in their right mind is going to offer that much money to a reliever not named Mariano. Crain is simply a rental this year & he'll probably sign over the offseason with whoever offers him the most guaranteed money since this may be his last shot at a big contract, however should the offers be pretty close he might prefer a situation like the Sox where he knows the coaching staff & trainers very well.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 19, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) Crain hasn't been a model of health either, as he's had troubles with his obliques pretty much every year. And you're right that he'll be a mid-tier closer. If his agent is smart, he'll end up with about $7 mill a year on his next deal. That's too much for a rebuilding White Sox team to pay a set up guy. I'd have zero problem paying Crain 3/$21M, or preferably, 2/$17 + a $2M buyout/$6M TO That second deal, you get him for 1 Yr $8M, his second year is $9M + a $2M buyout owed If he's great as a closer that first year, you deal him the following offseason without eating more than $1M & you get a good player/prospect back. If he's decent/average as a closer in 2014 then you deal him over the offseason, covering maybe $3M of the second year and you get a good player back. If he struggles as a closer and shows he's still more of a setup guy, then you deal him still, take on $5M of the second year & $1M of the buyout, and you still get back a worthwhile prospect since he's a top setup man. The downside would be pretty small when you factor in the potential upside of a Reed deal. If you have to pay Crain (or someone like him) between $7-14M in order to acquire for one year of Crain closing plus the prospects/players you deal him for, that shouldn't outweigh the $$$ value of the contributions a Reed trade brings you, because a Reed trade brings you controllable player(s), very likely pre-arb. A deal like that allows the Sox to use a small percentage of payroll space to basically trade Crain twice and Reed once, and the one year you have Crain closing due to Reed's absence is kind of like a time buy on another young arm you have in house or bring in, where you groom that player to fill the closer role post-Crain. I think it's brilliant. Of course I'm a genius so whatever. Sox should do it. Hahn needs to stop calculating his sleep number & make these moves. Bad teams in need of talent ALWAYS should trade their closers, unless they are extremely special Sale/Wagner types but that's extremely rare & not even worth talking about re: Reed.

Relievers are volatile, but you can't just compare someone like Crain with every other reliever in baseball. Crain has appeared in 527 games & pitched 527 innings, and looking at his peripherals he's never had what you'd really call a horrible season. I think a big part of the volatility of relievers is 1) the injury factor and 2) the fact that most of these guys seem to be 2-pitch power armed pitchers, usually fastball-slider it seems, who really don't have much of chance at long bouts of consistency given the difficulty of having to locate a nasty slider (or whatever else) with regularity to keep the opposition from sitting on the fastball. Crain OTOH has been pretty durable & he certaintly isn't a 2-pitch pitcher. I think he's one of the safer bets out there as far as relievers go, so I don't think it's fair to categorize him with everyone else. Maybe you put him in there with RP who have appeared in at least 250/300+ games and gone for 250/300+ IP. With that said, Crain's having a career year & will likely make himself not only a closer option in the offseason, but maybe a mid-tier one in price as well. But I think if you can trade him for something pretty nice, and then turn around and trade Reed for something really nice, then you think about signing a closer (like Crain) over the offseason, basically using the money you're giving your closer to buy the prospects/young MLB players you get out of Reed. I expect that this sort of thing is going to occur a LOT under the new CBA so I hope the Sox start doing it themselves. I'd only go 3 years tops on any closer though, and I'd much rather pay a little more per year to get a 2 year deal with a team option for a third with a buyout, because then you're potentially positioning yourself to only ask & pay for one good year, then you're looking at trading a guy in the last year of his deal over the following offseason.

Ha, I didn't even know there was a game on. Ugh. Well I looked at the Giants prospect list from Sickels, doesn't sound all that great for Peavy. Who knows though. But their SP was Ryan Vogelsong with an ERA above 7 and then it looks like Chad Gaudin started 3 games, then a prospect got his ass kicked, and plus Lincecum & Zito are still shells of their former selves. I'm sure they'd want the Jakemeister though. And I do like their uniforms.

Peavy played under Bruce Bochy the Giants manager. They also seem like they could really use a SP. I like their uniforms, don't know if I'd like their prospects though. Hope they have someone good. Dylan Axelrod would be a big improvement for them right now. We can do that.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 05:19 PM) It would be insane to sell low on Peavy for the sake of keeping Axelrod comfortable. This team's success is never going to hinge on Dylan Axelrod, now or in the next 5 years. He's better than replacement level, but he is absolutely not someone to keep you from maximizing a trade return on your most valuable trade chip. EDIT: This "awesome" season he's having has him on pace for 1.2WAR. That's not even league average. I like the guy too, but the Dylan Axelrod love is a bit out of control. The guy is striking out less than 5 per 9 while walking over 3. He should have some small value on the market. If you can get an MLB-ready bust type, or a guy who has a lot of ability but is in the low minors & doesn't project as a fast mover, or a former top prospect who is coming back from injury, etc. then you make the deal I think. I'd love for Axe to help a contender anyway. He's a winning type player.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 03:43 PM) If we're talking to San Diego about a starting pitcher, just say f*** it and make it Peavy. There will be zero issues with it among anyone and the Padres might well pay a bit of a talent premium to get him back. The Padres wouldn't just have to pay for Peavy, they'd have to also pay (in prospects) for the cash we'd have to send along to make that deal happen. Any deal involving SD or AZ is probably an easier one to make for our FO given the relationships the Sox have had with those FO & how well they know us. Also the Dodgers would probably know us very well so a deal there could work.

Just thinking here Let's say we could get Martin from Texas somehow as our CF, involving a SP or Rios And you can also get Tabata from PIT in an Alexei deal And OAK will give you Reddick maybe? He's having a s***ty year. Not sure whether they've given up on him or not, but Beane knows our system, maybe DeAza goes there with a prospect or something? OAK may be able to take their division this year. If you can pull that stuff off you've got 4 OF for 3 spots including Viciedo, with Dunn's DH AB available whenever you want, so you take some shots. That would be a pretty athletic OF though.

I want Wade Davis from KC, really want that guy. Hosmer too, and Moose would be a nice project. There's a ton of risk there so I doubt anything is likely. I haven't seen Martin play but I know he was a top prospect, what about something involving Santiago for Martin. Santiago + DeAza for Martin + prospect. Or maybe you expand it, Rios + Santiago for Martin + prospects, if they wanted to try Alex in CF again.

BTW the main reason I want to deal BattleAxe isn't because I don't like him or want him, it's because he's better than I ever thought he'd be, but he's not really too useful on a team that needs to develop players and badly needs talent & ceiling, he's much more useful on a team that needs to win right now & has a black hole in the 5 slot. You definitely keep Axe if you get s*** for offers, but if you get a player offered to you whose value is way down because of failure, but whose talent level is tantalizing & whose ceiling is far higher than Axe's, then I think now is the time to make that deal if you can.

The Twins seem committed to Florimon so I don't think they'd ask the world for Eduardo, but at the same time, when he was acquired Terry Ryan said they think he's more than a UT type, so if he's their backup plan then they'd want something decent for him. I'm not sure there's a match but I'd go Nate Jones & plug in Eduardo after an Alexei deal. Re: Arrieta, I think that if Coop & the entire Sox organization can turn Floyd around then you take a shot if you can. Floyd was the prototypical bust, huge arm, high draft pick, mentally shaky, chance after chance he just doesn't get it, etc. The way I see it though, the Sox aren't keeping 4 LH starters, so there are 2 righties, Peavy is one, and Axe is holding the spot that is probably going to go to Erik Johnson pretty soon. So if you use Axe's rotation time on a big armed project like Arrieta (or someone else in that mold, i.e. huge arm with zero results who can be acquired cheaply), then rather than simply buying time, you are taking a shot at a second righty who, should he develop, would make Peavy expendable when Johnson is ready, or would push back Johnson which would push back Beck which would create a potential logjam of RHSP which is always a great thing.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 11:03 AM) They might have the best pitching staff in the majors. Anyways, who knows how much longer they can hang on to Travis Snider too. I also have no problem with Tabata either. Alexei and De Aza for Snider, Tabata, Barmes, and Stetson Allie (the former pitcher, now hitter, who is absolutely destroying Low-A ball pitching, and yes, I know it's Low-A ball, but still) I love that deal & I'd totally make it right now. DeAza for Tabata is basically a wash, maybe Pitt thinks there's more potential upside there, but there's also not the money owed hanging there. For the Sox, Tabata becomes the corner guy you plug in wherever, and you use a bigger piece to target a run producer in either corner, or else hit FA for it. Allows the Sox the flexibility also to go after a CF. Meanwhile Alexei's contract is gone, and you get some shot in the dark plug ins to go with it. Barmes covers you for this year, and if Sanchez starts to show the org he's ready to learn at any point in time then you bring him up & who cares about Barmes, just a stop gap anyway. I'd do that deal. But first I'd try to get the Dodgers or someone to take Alexei's deal while absorbing Dunn (because if I could clear his 2014 salary somehow without giving up a major piece I do it, and then I look to sign a FA to a front-loaded contract using Dunn's "sunk cost" money). But if I can't connect on that hail mary, I definitely look for the type of deal you are proposing. And I still want Axelrod for Arrieta. And I also want Eduardo Escobar back if we can get him without giving up much. Love his attitude & I really think his ceiling as an offensive player is higher than a strict UT guy. And I don't care who disagrees with me either.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 10:51 AM) I'm looking more at TX. especially if Nelson Cruz gets suspended in the Biogenesis scandal, but so far nothing's come of it. Do they need more than Rios? We have a lot of players. I know they've been dicking around with a couple of their better pitchers, bullpen to rotation, etc. I'm pretty against trading either Q or Santiago but a team with that much talent in the minor might be able to come up with a package of MLB-ready players to make me think about something pretty hefty, like a Q/Hector + Rios package. But that would take a LOT, because I absolutely love Q & have warmed up more to Hector who I already liked anyway.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 10:48 AM) Pittsburgh needs SS help pretty badly, and they have a nice system too. Collectively, they have a .532 OPS from the SS position and their normal starter, Clint Barmes, has an OPS of .496 this year and it's at .568 over his last 198 games. If do a deal with Pittsburgh they have Jose Tabata. Not really a "build around" kind of player but comes with cost certainty & would give us a "plug-in" type should we trade Rios. BTW holy s*** at Jason Grilli's numbers. My GOD. Who saw that coming? We had him once ya know. Damn KW, should have been psychic & held onto him.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 10:41 AM) The Yankees might be a place to consider with Arod being up in the air. Alexei could slide over to 3rd when Jeter gets back. I like it. We've screwed them a couple times before, although they took Swisher off our hands for nothing & got use out of him. Let's screw those guys hard over Alexei, take a player from their farm. I bet Cano would absolutely love playing with Alexei. NY would love watching Alexei play after all those years of mediocre to bad SS play.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 10:35 AM) Take a look at the standings in both leagues between now and the trade deadline. Any team within 5 games of a wild card birth with good position player prospects or young major leaguers. TX., Cinn., Pitts., St.L, . Odds of trading with NL slightly higher than AL. I might like something involving Cincy. They're definitely in full win now mode & their farm has been producing some nice players. For the right situation we should be open to packaging players, like an OF + relievers, a setup man + a closer, 2 relievers, etc.

Who takes Alexei for one? Dodgers are out there, they could use a SS and can take on salary. Who else needs a SS?

Not listing Peavy because we can't expect more than some lowball offers ATM, and no way we're trading him at 75% of his value or less.

Which teams are likely be in on the following players, assuming they hit the market: Crain Thornton Lindstrom Alexei DeAza Rios Reed Who needs these guys & what are we going to get for them? List the suitors & make up some deals.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 08:43 AM) I don't disagree with any of what you said except that I don't think there's any chance pending free agent relievers stay. There's no point if you aren't going to resign them, so you just hold out for the best return. There will always be someone willing to give up something for them. I'd bet money that Lindstrom, Crain, and Thornton are all wearing different uniforms come August 1st. If the Sox get some good offers on them then I think you're right. However I doubt we'll be trading them for the likes of Jon "the Missing" Link, Michael Dubee, Brandon Hynick, etc. We're going to have to get some ceiling, otherwise there's no poiint, because a pen without those guys would be so abysmal that it would make it considerably more difficult to "fix" Nate Jones/Donnie Veal/Septimo, etc. or advance any other reliever we'd call up.