The Ultimate Champion

Make an impact... on your foot. Great D there.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 07:58 PM) That has nothing to do with Addison Reed. Again, why do you think the Tigers team of professionals scouts and administrators are going to overrate Reed when we won't? QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 08:31 PM) ??? It has everything to do with Reed- he's a closer. I don't think anybody really thinks the Tigers want Reed or want to deal with us either though, but why are the Tigers immune from desperation and overrating? Why wouldn't Reed be on the short list of available, quality closers? Has anybody made the list yet? I'd say you can put Crain on it.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 06:17 PM) I couldn't agree more, but maybe the Tigers are thinking they wouldn't want to have Castellanos haunt them in their own division for years to come. First off, I like Garcia & wouldn't be unhappy with him at all. Right now Castellanos is the guy the prospect people are talking about but I wouldn't be surprised if some of our people would like Garcia more. It's our scouts who matter, not any of the writers. That said, if the Tigers will give us a guy who we think is ready now, and who we also think is going to be an above average starting position player for us for several years, and a potential cornerstone of the next really good Sox team, and they are ready to do it for a reliever, then let's do it. As far as the Tigers not wanting to do it... that's where Illitch comes in. If you were an agent dealing with George Steinbrenner directly, and you knew Cashman wasn't going to be on board, then you were as happy as a camel on a Wednesday because you knew you were going to get your terms whether the GM liked it or not. Illitch might just pull the trigger on a move that will hurt the franchise down the road for the sake of winning now. He's done it several times over in the spending area, almost did it with the Jurrjens deal (Jair fell off, got hurt, etc.) most recently he did it with Prince. If we offer them Reed or even a package of relievers for some unproven players - and let's remember how many great Tigers prospects Illitch has watched bust over the years - and he thinks that deal puts them over the top, then it doesn't matter what Dombrowski thinks or wants to do, that deal is done. Hahn needs to take advantage of every possible avenue. I couldn't care less if the Tigers win it all this year either. If we don't then someone else has to, might as well be them. But I do care a lot about the Sox being good again, and if there's a deal out there that we think makes us a lot better in the future then we need to make it, no matter who it is with. And it's funny how for so long people on this board b****ed and b****ed and cried about Kenny Williams trying to win during our contention window, and how all we did was trade prospects rather than acquire them, and how horrible it was that there wasn't a clear focus on the future & nothing else. Well now is the time to do that, and people still want to complain? Ugh. If you can win, try like hell to win. If you can't, try like hell to get back there again. Sale is the only piece you have to keep.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 05:44 PM) Wait aren't you arguing vehemently in another thread about how trading for prospects sucks and they always bust? Guess what? We're not getting f***ing Castellanos for Reed. Obviously if someone wants to vastly overpay for him, let's do it -- but I'm arguing generally against filling our direct competitors' biggest holes with our cost-controlled talent with upside. Who cares what they do? Every team in this division is trying to get better. If another rival team wants to trade a more talented player to us for a reliever, you let them do it. It doesn't matter how good any of these other teams are until we're good enough to contend for a title. We're not even close to that point. And if we're freaking out about what other rival teams might look like 2-3 years from now, let's talk about the Twins now that Terry Ryan back. They won't suck forever. The Tigers may not even be our biggest threat the next time we're ready to win big.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 05:49 PM) He was before he went on his trade Reed at all costs tangent. Reed is a closer. As for the WERENOTGETTINGCASTRASLKNFORHIMDAERNIRREEED there was a post earlier referencing MLBTradeRumors.... hey, I'll even find it myself "Other teams say the Tigers are willing to surrender top prospects Nick Castellanos or Avisail Garcia if necessary. The team is focused on finding a closer." So there. *Also, most of my anti-prospect stuff came re: the completely outlandish idea of trading a recently extended Chris Sale. You're trading the best possible outcome, who is young, under control, paid well below his production, the arb years are avoided, the team has tons of control.... for what? A bunch of unproven players who are great looking now? Yeah that will work out well. Trading a reliever for someone's top prospect doesn't have nearly the downside. The upside is tremendous thought. If the player you get back becomes a star, you killed it. If you get back an average SP or position player, you still stole the guy, hands down. If he's a halfway decent player for maybe 3-4 seasons filling a role, given the volatility of relievers, you still may win that deal. And even if Reed stays Reed while they player you get back full out busts, oh well. It's not like you lost some star player. You lost a reliever.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 04:59 PM) Worth remembering though...what level of MLB-ready prospect do you get for middle relief? Even if they're having a great season like Crain, 2 months of a middle reliever doesn't get you all that great of a return if you focus solely on guys who can contribute next year. Ditto Thornton, Lindstrom. Peavy or Rios or Reed, if they're dealt...guys like that you're right, you don't want to take a guy with 20 innings in AA ball for Peavy and then have him turn into Nestor Molina, you want a guy who can contribute next year. But the other guys who might be moved, there could be a lot more value available if you target people who are a year or more away. I think the first group you're targeting "bust" and "change of scenery" types. The O's keep throwing Arrietta out there it seems, waiting for something to bite on. How much patience will the Royals have with Moose? As much as with Gordon? Because Moose, while an excellent prospect & high draft pick, was never garnering anything like George Brett comps. We may get our next Uribe or Thornton that way. That would be very nice. I just don't like dealing contributors for shot in the dark A ballers unless your scouts really love the guy, at least not if you can get MLB ready types. We have all kinds of open spots this year & on the 2014 club, we need to audition some players.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 05:01 PM) It seems like it's already being whispered that Webb could have a shot at that role. Dude does throw 100. I'll agree though, there will need to be a veteran presence brought into that bullpen this offseason. Who it is, I dunno, and how many, I dunno; depends on what guys like Webb and perhaps SRod do if they get callups in August/September. Hopefully they do well. I like that the Sox are pushing this & not the papers. Those guys pushed Adkins, Link, Anthony Carter, the list just goes on. Marinez still has a big arm. Maybe he does something.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 04:58 PM) Someone vote YES & tie this poll up please. I post this, come back, more people vote NO. Clearly there are some comprehension problems here. This isn't opposite day.

Someone vote YES & tie this poll up please.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 03:41 PM) Reed has a nice track record closing out games. Castellanos has a blank resume with no past experience. If I'm Hahn, I'm asking for more to insulate against a total bust. You make a good point. The only thing is, when it comes to players of that level of ability, as unproven prospects, you have to acquire them either before they've done anything or after they busted. Otherwise if they are doing it in the Majors you just don't get them at all. That's why it makes sense to take such a risk with a young relief pitcher over a young starter or young position player (not that we have tons of those anyway). I definitely think we have to target MLB-ready players across the board. We'll have to bring in guys who are ready or very close to it & rely on our own scouting dept. to build the lower ranks of the farm, and continue building what we already have down there. We really need help at every level, but especially the MLB level. You just can't trade all your proven players for A ballers, that s*** doesn't work if you want to be good at any point this century.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 03:14 PM) It'd definitely be an interesting gamble to see a team go with that lefty-heavy of a rotation. I also still think there's a 50/50 shot the Sox will sign Floyd to a minor league/1 year deal and stash him away on the DL/in a rehab stint until the 2nd half of the season. The idea of 4 lefties like that scares me. 2 Sales & it's okay, but those 4 = trouble IMO. Hopefully we can trade Danks in the offseason, because hopefully he''ll show something this year that makes a team want to do that. Otherwise I think you have to look at dealing Q or Santiago, which I really don't want to see.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 11:31 AM) I don't think you can send Reed to the Tigers. He's pre-arb. You don't want to give a direct competitor something that's going to hurt you for years down the line. They would have four years of control -- I expect us to be competitive again in 2 or 3. Now, Crain, that's fine. They can hurt us this year all they want, and Crain will a FA or a bad contract by next summer. LOL If we're playing the Tigers & we're down in the 9th then we're already f***ed as it is. And if you mean Reed helping them beat other teams and helping their record while we're good.... do you really think that in 2-3 years (when you think we'll be good again) Reed will be sooooo good that he'll be a difference maker for that team? Do you not believe that the Tigers could, and would, acquire another closer equally as good in the meantime? Reed may not even be in baseball 2 years from now for all we know. This isn't Sale we're talking about. This is like a total layup and the Sox FO is the WNBA all-star team. There's no way they should be able to screw this one up. BTW, what happens if the Tigers get Reed from us and win a WS this year? Does that negatively affect us? Not really, no. Not if you don't think we're going to be good next year. We'd miss the payroll spike. OTOH, what happens if the Tiggers trade us an all-star for 6 years & they get a halfway decent closer for a couple years who eventually gets hurt/becomes ineffective and is non-tendered? Because that happens all the time with closers. We'd be looking at a deal that Tigers fans would lament for years, and a deal that would be part of the foundation of the legacy Hahn should be trying to build. This is a great f***ing situation for us & it's like half the board wants to be Debbie Downer over Addison Reed. ADDISON REED! LOL

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 02:58 PM) So they shed $5.5 mill in Thornton, $4.5 mill in Crain, $2 mill in Lindstrom, $6 mill in Konerko ($7 mill this year, $1 mill installements from from 2014 thru 2020), $9.5 mill in Floyd, anyone they may trade this year, plus an additional $25 million in revenue, and you believe that they won't make a single move in free agency or the trade market. We are talking upwards of $50 million for them to spend this offseason. You might see Danks play out the year, but I would strongly, strongly doubt they go into next season with him as the starter. I doubt they go into next season with Viciedo at 1B too. I think trying to figure anything out like that right now is farfetched and absurd. If the Sox dump a lot of money in deadline deals, then trade the Jakemeister in the offseason, they will be able to offer a FA deal to a RHP to take Jake's current spot (placeholder probably, taking up innings while Johnson/whoever settles into the #5 spot) and then they should also be able to pick up at least 2 run producers to fit somewhere in either LF/CF/RF/1B/3B/DH/C. They might even be able to get 3 if they get a buy low type looking for playing time on a 1-year deal. But as always, there's the Torii Hunter rule. Can't count on anything.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 01:59 PM) What's so hard to understand about the fact that we've yet to face the Tigers, and Reed pitched against the easiest schedule in all of MLB so far...and he's just as likely to regress or end up ineffective in the 2nd half of the season? Crain has almost NEVER been used as a closer his entire career. All of a sudden, all these national baseball writers are suggesting it (because of the contract risk taking on the Papelbon deal), but that doesn't mean he'd do it any better than, say, Santiago or Matt Thornton. They didn't call him Crain Wreck in Minnesota for no reason. Yeah Crain may get a shot at closing, and he may actually perform well, but a team is going to be a little concerned whether they should give up a nice looking prospect for a player who is not only a rental but is unproven as a closer & could very well blow up in their faces. The Sox really need to be active this year. There should really be no question as to whether or not this team needs talent. It's as glaring as it is has ever been. I mean s***, when is the last time the Sox had just about nothing as far as run producers? This team has always had thumpers, where are they now? God damn we need talent.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 02:47 PM) The Tigers are all in, they will try Rondon out before they get too deep in looking for a guy. Rumor is they are talking to the Phillies about Papelbon. If the Tigers set the market for closers giving Castellanos for Papelbon, that will really drive up the value for Reed given the contract implications of the the two. I dont think there is anyway that the Tigers give up either within the division, but it is nice to dream. If the Tiggers gave up that much for Papelbon AND took on the contract, I don't think that even affects market aside from taking the biggest bidder off it & hurting us. Nobody else would do that. Illitch will make moves over his GM's head, or at least insist on the GM go through with something he doesn't want to do. That's the absolute best case scenario for any team or agent looking to make a deal. God damn we need to take advantage of this. They can take our whole pen if they want it, just give us MLB ready ceiling in return.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 02:17 PM) From MLBTR "Other teams say the Tigers are willing to surrender top prospects Nick Castellanos or Avisail Garcia if necessary. The team is focused on finding a closer." LOL Yeah trade Reed already. This is like the baseball gods giving love back to Hahn after letting Floyd get hurt. Can't botch this one.

Why even try dealing DeAza? Who is going to give up anything of significance for him alone? He's like Lindstrom, Thornton, he's an add-on. You expand the deal if the team you're talking Crain/Reed/Rios/Peavy/Alexei with has a need for an OF & you want to get a better player than what is being offered. You're still ignoring the one most obvious point, which is that Reed during the middle of the season is goign to be worth a lot more. There are no more internal options for some clubs, because you can't just keep losing games/overworking your pen and "living with the mistakes" or whatever your young players are giving you. Also, there are setup men who could be tried as closers as well as closers on the FA market, you have to compete with them as well. Reed's value right now will likely never be higher. I still have yet to see any convincing argument against trading him. We're going to be bad the rest of this year, probably at least not very good next year, and we can't reasonably hope to contend seriously until at least 2015. So you hold onto Reed for what? And Kimbrel... the Braves are contending, what does he have to do with anything? He's not available. Reed is the best guy on the market. The Sox have Crain, Thornton, Lindstrom, even Axe as a longman, to add to a deal. A team with major bullpen concerns could be saved by Rick Hahn. But there's a hefty price for that, which is why you put that option out there. How much is a WS championship worth to the Tigers right now? Are you really going to hang onto that prospect/young player (who is unproven and maybe a bust anyway) and risk toileting an entire season? You're asking Ricky Hahn to chop his balls off. I'm asking him to flaunt them, shake them around, let those little beads of ball sweat fling off like little rockets & coat the faces of his competitors. That's all I'm saying, f*** yeah, trade Reed.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 12:16 PM) I voted no just to spite you because I felt like it. Really, Hahn should be "shopping" the entire team yet not "shopping" anybody whatsoever. If someone comes to you with an intriguing idea for Addison Reed, don't be afraid to pull the trigger or counter, but at the same time, don't go out of your way to trade him because he's an incredibly valuable pitcher. You should have voted YES because you know it is RIGHT. You can't shop everyone. Your scouts aren't like teleporting ghosts things who can go from game to game player to player all the time & be in like 50 different minor league stadiums at the same time like god or something. You need to identify WHICH SPECIFIC PLAYERS (I'm yelling there) are going to bring back the best return & then get on the phione, see what other teams are offering, dispatch your goons, get busy. You don't just sit there writing dfown lists, you have to get serious on some players. I say, you get real serious on Alexei, Reed, Rios, Crain because those are the guys who have good value right now. Peavy is probably a lowball offer, screw it. Lindstrom, Thornton are "add-ons" in bigger packages, or somethign like that.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 25, 2013 -> 11:33 AM) Really, the difference in what you'd get for Ramirez, Peavy, or Reed would not be any different this offseason than it would at the deadline. The Mariners traded Adam Jones, George Sherrill, Chris Tillman, and two others for Erik Bedard. The Tigers, Cubs, and Red Sox gave the Marlins a zillion players in their deals. The only reason you deal those guys right now is 1) if you feel you are getting max value 2) you feel that said players are at max value Yes, you have to deal guys like Crain, Thornton, and Lindstrom because they are free agents to be, but there's no need to deal the first 3 mentioned because they really are not going to lose value between now and then. Rios could lose value. The outfield class is pretty deep and diverse so trading him now while he is currently the best offensive bat makes sense. I'll "concede" that point. There could be others that become available between now and mid July too. Then again, you can keep him in the off chance you compete next year. But to suggest that you are going to get more or less for Ramirez, Peavy, or Reed right now is silly. Ramirez is going to be one of the best SS's available both in July and December - your free agent shortstops are Peralta, Drew, Yunel Escobar, and Furcal. That is, quite frankly, a terrible class. There are all kinds of high upside starters that can be brought in during free agency, but most will be high risk as well. And Reed is a 24 year old closer who will end the year with just over 2 years of service time who is currently averaging 9+ K/9 with a 4 K/BB. If you want to shop him now, you can, but unless his arm blows up between now and December (knock on wood), his value will go UP. The only 3 that need to be moved are the 3 relievers I mentioned. Rios would be a good one to trade too, but, as mentioned, he doesn't have to go anywhere. Same goes for Ramirez, Peavy, and Reed. I disagree 1000000000000% on Reed or any excellent reliever for that matter. Every ST, every signle one of the 30 teams has a few arms they are looking at & thinking they are potential dark horse difference makers. Maybe they are guys who spent the last season in the minors, maybe Rule-5 guys, guys who had a cup of coffee in September & performed well, etc. In the offseason you figure you have all of spring & maybe a coup[le months of the regular season to get your closer s*** straightened out, and things are always looking rosy then. But then Bruce Rondon take a big dump in your cereal & Jose Valverde is also taking dumps on various places of the field & you have no answer/. What do you do? You need to win now, so you bite the bullet and you ask yourself "Is the future of (insert prospect/young players name here) REALLY worth gambling this entire season on? Really? We could win it all this year!" And then you make that trade, knowing you may lose, but you do it to save the season. Reed is a game-changing potential season saver for the right team. In the offseason, he's a good closer but probably not worth spending money on when you think you have Bruce Rondon in there & Jose Valverde sitting around on his ass as a backup plan. The time is NOW. NOW IS THE TIME. Trade Reed, that's all I'm saying. f*** yeah.

Yes has finally overtaken No on the poll. f*** yeah. Hahn, now it's on you. Get to work. And let's please do this deal with the Tigers. I'd love to win that game of chicken, where our scouts cherry pick from their farm system & the deal gets done over the head of the GM on behalf of the owner's desire to win. f*** yeah, make it happen. Reed to the Tigers, along with Crain or Thornton? And you know what? We have the goods to make that deal (f*** yeah) and then still get on the phone - let's make it a conference call - with Oakland & Texas. Let's let them know we're open for business & we have the goods to give either of them a huge lift over the competition, then let's see who wants it more. f*** yeah. Let's do this.

All a closer is is a really good setup man who can get 3 outs in the 9th inning without falling apart. Relievers in general are volatile. When you have a Reed you keep him if you're contending, but if you are not, and you have just about nothing positionally at the AA/AAA level, and absolutely nothing as far as run producers, then you trade him. Because he's really not all that special. He has nice numbers, but he's not a once in a generation type of arm, not even close to it.

Not sure that it has to do with this thread, but a deal sending Cliff Lee back to Texas for Elvis Andrus makes too much sense not to happen. That Andrus contract is nutty, and there's risk and money on the Lee side of things. Maybe we could get involved there. Texas IIRC lost Harrison for the year & they need an OF also. Maybe there's a 3-way deal where Texas keeps Profar as thier SS, sends Andrus to Philly, and gets back Cliff Lee + Peavy or Cliff Lee + Rios. Texas & maybe Philly could send specs our way. Rollins is still under contract for a couple more years with Philly, but Young at 3B & Utley at 2B are headed for FA.

MLBTR says the Nats are an aggressive buyer. They could use a SP & it looks like they could use a lefty reliever, too. Who knows their system? What do they give us for Peavy + Thornton? Anything worth trading the Jakemeister? I'm not giving him up easily. Also I think Texas is a great fit for a couple of our players, and I would love to sausage slap the Tiggers in a Reed deal.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 10:17 AM) I think I would be willing to trade almost any starting pitcher for the right package of players. It shouldn't matter if he is Chris Sale or Nolan Ryan or whomever. If you get back the right collection of talent, you move the player. This isn't basketball and this isn't a quarterback in football. I agree that you can't move him just for prospects - that's too risky. But if you got the right collection of mlb-ready talent or current mlb players, or a combination of these things with a prospect or two, I don't know why it matters if it's Chris Sale or what his contract is. Right. That's why there's no point in discussing it. Usually the type of team that tries to pry away your Sale is a contender who is trying to win right now. Usually those contenders want to add to what they have rather than dismantle themselves at the MLB level to make a deal. Texas is really the only team that I can think of that would be able to offer a huge collection of MLB-ready players. They have Profar, Martin, Perez, Olt, Grimm, etc. all either at the MLB level or with MLB appearances under their belts & MLB ready. If the Rangers offer all those guys for Sale then you probably have to make that deal even though you may not get back a player who is equally as dominate as Sale is, because there's just so much value there & there is the potential to get something really special with Profar. But it would have to be a Playstation deal & there's no point in soliciting a Playstation deal. You can't just shop everyone though or you're not going to get anything done. If the Sox send their scouts to go look at players they know they won't be getting because the team you're talking with is very unlikely to meet the asking price, then all you're doing is shooting yourself in the foot.

Alexei just needs to go to a contender. He's so much like Uribe it's crazy, neither of those guys can play on s***ty team and keep that same level of focus. Put them on a winner & it's a totally different player. I imagine any team looking at Alexei seriously would understand that also, so I'm not sure his errors and mental slips make him much less desirable.