The Ultimate Champion

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 05:28 PM) Then it makes very little sense to trade him. I kind of disagree given his past. Don't dump him obviously, but if you have in your mind what a full 100% of Rios' value looks like as a return in prospects, if it is July 28/29 or so and the best deal out there is 80% of that, I say make the deal. I think I kind of agree with greg, but not necessarily worded the same way. He has tons of talent, always has, but his switch can turn off & stay off for months, and we have to consider that. Of course, other teams will be thinking of his past as well, but they will factor that into their offers, and if the offers out there happen to be complete bulls*** then I wouldn't expect Hahn to do anything.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 04:53 PM) People need to look past typical player valuations when discussing deadline deals. If a team feels they're one player from being a legit World Series threat, more often than not they'll be willing to pay a premium to get that player. With the new wild card rules, we now have even more buyers and less sellers than we normally would, which only increases the amount of teams willing to pay such a premium. Rios is going to be one of the few impact bats available at the deadline, at a position of need for many contenders. He's also under team control for 2 1/2 seasons at below market rates. He should be one of the most valuable players at the deadline and there's a very good chance IMO tha someone will be willing to offer something stupid for him. The long-term value of a WS Championship can't be underestimated. Also, you cannot underestimate the drive of some owners/ownership groups to win, nor can you underestimate TWTW of a GM. GM's aren't hired to accumulate win shares on paper, they are there to win games, and winning it all is the absolute goal. It's difficult to understand why people always seem to be forgetting this, but for the most part (with really the only exception being players held back for arb/FA reasons), players who are in the minor leagues are there because they aren't good enough to hit MLB pitching or get MLB hitters out. If you think you have a shot at a championship, is that player's future really worth gambling on? Obviously you don't give up more than you feel you have to, but let's not get carried away here. s***, Will Middlebrooks was the greatest thing ever this time last year, now he's what? And that guy was already producing at the MLB level. Even if another team "overpays" and gives up their best prospect it doesn't mean we get anything out of it in the end. It's not that we should want to acquire a bunch of prospects, it's that we have to. We're f***ing losers. We suck. That is why we are doing this.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 05:00 PM) It might inflate the value of setup men, 4th/5th starters, closers, good UT types who are borderline starters, etc. and of course it will up the value of the real superstars. In the end it will probably have a small impact on 3rd year arbitration & further pronounce the already massive gap between a quality player during his 3rd-6th season and a player of equal quality on a market rate free agent contract. Which all in all just makes it more important to be able to either develop your own players and/or use prospects to acquire players who are good and extendable or already extended to friendlier deals. So I guess it probably just makes everything riskier on a GM while it's still like $47 at the park for a couple beers & a dog. Also this makes me hope Hahn can extend Q, Santiago, DeAza, and Beckham to fairly friendly deals over the season. Even if you are planning on trading a couple of these guys, the cost certainty aspect of the game seems to be gaining importance.

Also the main thing the Sox can offer in the offseason (as it looks now of course, prior to any trades) is playing time, not $$$. We can give a couple vets the chance to go out & prove themselves on 1-year deals. And when/if those guys do work out, and they are playing for a contract, you can deal them over the deadline next year and pick up something decent while buying time on whoever it is in the minors who should be ticketed for the spot currently being held by a reclamation project.

It might inflate the value of setup men, 4th/5th starters, closers, good UT types who are borderline starters, etc. and of course it will up the value of the real superstars. In the end it will probably have a small impact on 3rd year arbitration & further pronounce the already massive gap between a quality player during his 3rd-6th season and a player of equal quality on a market rate free agent contract. Which all in all just makes it more important to be able to either develop your own players and/or use prospects to acquire players who are good and extendable or already extended to friendlier deals. So I guess it probably just makes everything riskier on a GM while it's still like $47 at the park for a couple beers & a dog.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 02:40 PM) And the ONLY player we conceivably could have kept that would have dramatically improved our position in the standings (assuming he put up the same numbers as he has in Pittsburgh) in 2013 is Francisco Liriano, and there might have been 2 or 3 people on entire board who wanted to keep him for this season. But wasn't Liriano's deal with the Pirates held up for a long time due to complications with a physical? I remember that being the case, and they had to renegotiate or soemthing later on. Liriano is just one of those guys you see every year that goes off more or less out of nowhere. There are tons of players loaded with ability who look like they have fallen off completely & will never get back to prior (no pun intended) performance levels, and usually they just stay where they are in that basement until they fall out of the league period. Can't really imagine Liriano being back under any circumstances, especially with the Sox lefty depth & his physical issues.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 02:26 PM) Eminor, a couple of people have alluded to it, not just me. I happen to think he's a 'loser' like the one poster's comments on Dunn. I personally think he dogs it. He was our best player last year. This year he's got decent numbers that are dropping. He had that one abysmal year after immediately sucking after the Sox acquired him. I don't know if I'm allowed to bash players, so let's just say I don't like his style. If Rios is a great player and I'm being unfair, then I guess I am a bad fan. If you are worried about him staying mentally consistent through the year & maintaining his trade value into the offseason, then I agree, I'm not confident in him either. I think if we have it in our mind that he's not part of the future then we should look to deal him during the deadline.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 10:07 AM) That seems counter-intuitive, you want to get impact payers back but at the same time you are decreasing the value of what you are offering by attaching Danks contract. And there is not real good reason to trade Danks now, with an injury like his the recovery does not complete until the year after the player returns to the mount, so you are really selling at the lowest possible value given his performance and money owed. I firmly believe that going to a 4-lefty rotation would negatively affect the development of both Q & Santiago. I would rather have both over Danks due to the mon ey & the uncertainty on Danks. Also, any team taking on Danks would believe they could get something out of him, so the second player's value shouldn't be hurt too much. Let's say Peavy/Rios gets you 2 good looking prospects/unproven MLB guys plus 1 further away piece that has talent & is more of a longshot. I would add Danks, take the same deal, and let them keep 1 of the prospects as payment for assuming the risk associated with Danks & paying him. Of course if the organization feels it's probably a 70% chance or better than Danks makes a full recovery, I do none of that, and instead look to deal one of Q/Santiago ideally for a position player.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 12:37 PM) ok, like, what the hell does this mean? Sub "yet" with "and" and it makes sense

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 01:49 PM) I would like to think this site is better than thinking Rios could net Skaggs. Good god. Please do enlighten us oh God of Minor League Baseball KNowledge Please, tell us why we are all so lost & hopeless, so impure as to think such a thought! OHOHOHOHohoohohohohohoho Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaahahhahha Oohohohohohhoooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo

The one good thing about SP is that if you can develop it you can turn around & trade it to fill other needs on the position side. I would in general feel better about the Sox chances of doing that than taking back an A baller position player & having him become anything more than a bench guy.

Alexei on that team would give them a lift for sure, and as another Cuban he'd probably be a great clubhouse fit. With Uribe also, great fit in general. He'd help them a whole lot though, so we need something back. Peavy can go elsewhere unless the Dodgers want to go crazy & just give us a ton.

If Phil Rogers ever gets canned over there at the Trib he's the type of guy you find climbing a service pole with a pair of long handled bolt cutters looking for some copper. And if that happens you could call him Phried Rogers. LOL I'm awesome.

Also Jordan4Life why don't you come back & post in this forum more? Don't hate, participate. Yeah. I love this site, you do too, we all do, we're all Sox fans, let's just be friends okay?

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 10:49 AM) With WSI as the other option, this place will always be fine by me. At least the mods here are knowledgeable and post about baseball instead of parading around policing like they're the gestapo. J4L would get the boot for life if this were WSI. Something to consider... Missed this post, but it is absolutely right. When I first saw the thread that wite was a mod I was like "ah f*** this is the guy that's gonna s***can me" but it turns out I like wite even more as a mod, in fact, he's actually pretty awesome, very level headed as well. Something about the water the mods here drink. I thought Kyyle would send me down ban river too, but nope. Hmm. Mods here are great. Even the WSI mods I liked though, they would get ban happy but as long as you knew what you were talking about & cared about the team they wouldnt perma ban you. I probably got banned like 10 times over there but I was always on good terms with the mods. This site is better though because there arent as many mod pets, who will jump all over you when you say something ban worthy & pretend they're mods. Hall monitors, that's what they are, there are tons of hall monitors over there at WSI who would porbably slurp a mod dick just to be a mod for a day. But us Soxtalkers have too much respect for that, and besides I dont even wanna be a mod anyway, I'd just ban everyone for no reason and that wouldnt be good for the site. I agree with you though mr bilek.

Paulie only plays hurt when the games matter. That's that football player toughness that has always worked out so well for us.

IT WORKED! god i am an idiot

i should have just done that i still dont want to read the article though Edit: didnt even have to, a quick glance & he mentions the Orioles drafting Manny Machado... neglecting all their other high picks they are still waiting on. Typical Phullas*** Rogers

I clicked that bulls*** & it gave the digital susbscriber crap again god wtf they make you log in to read that s***? Phil Rogers? Yeah I'm just not going to read it & still rightly conclude it had one good idea tied to a cinder block & sunken in a river of bad ideas. I'm not logging in, F you Tribune you nazis.

TCTC The capacity to compel

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 01:24 PM) 1. not extremely expensive 2. AROD, Youkilis, Jeter all hurt 3. The immortal "David Adams" and his .190 average starting at 3b 4. Jayson Nix starting at SS 5. Keppinger hitting .330 since May 15 6. Yankees 3 games out of the Wild Card 7. Can fill the role and stay healthy for the remainder of the season 8. Won't cost much in terms of talent to obtain him 9. Already familiar with many of the teams in the AL East 10. Flexible enough to switch positions if Jeter or ARod do return this year 11. Yankees can afford a couple million for a UT guy Do you really need to ask? If this is all true then why isn't he in Yankee pinstripes by now? Could Hahn actually be trying to extract some kind of value here?

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 01:00 PM) It would be interesting and compelling to see him blow out his arm like Canseco did, wouldn't it? Then we would need another bench player. Oh that would be awesome. Rich and Compelling Nobody would care if he was DFAd tomorrow as long as he is an OF. His one inning pitching is the only thing he's done worth mentioning.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 11:38 AM) The guy pitched one inning. Relax people. He has a nice arm & we're on the verge of a 2007 kind of bullpen.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 08:58 AM) Name a team that has bottomed out, traded their best players and were back in contention in 2 or 3 years? This isn't the NBA. Draft picks rarely provide immediate help. The Sox will be lucky, incredibly lucky,if the guy they pick next June , even if they get the first pick,is really contibuting in 2016. I don't know what you're argument is here. I didn't even mention the draft. My post was about why you shouldn't trade all your young core pieces, namely Sale. If the Sox make a bunch of moves then they lose a bunch of veteran players, but if they do nothing then they also lose a bunch of veteran players at the end of the year due to FA. If you don't think the Sox can find someone to replace Alexei's on-field value (much less factoring in cost) in 2 years when we could be good again then I think you are being difficult at best. Rios is still a potential headcase and I would argue that keeping him is still a risk. What would the Sox trade that would really hurt their chances of becoming good again? They don't have to deal Peavy, they can hold onto him & use him in a deal later if they want after they've had some of their questions answered. They can trade him for need/fit at a later point than just talent at one of many possible positions. The Sox have shown the ability to work with less than this ala 2007. The 2008 club was a composite of Chris Carter the prospect, a FA UT player signing out of Cuba, the McCarthy trade, and the Freddy Garcia deal, both pitcher trades occurring after 2006, meaning both Floyd & Danks took a year for the Sox to develop at the MLB level. You're throwing s*** at the wall I think, or posting without thought. The Sox have done all this before and there are absolutely no indications that they are preparing for a Cubs style trade everyone rebuild. That's why Sale is not available, because they actually know what they are doing.

QUOTE (Jbabs34 @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 08:04 AM) That's exactly what's wrong with this organization, they haven't drafted and developed anyone that can save them in the near future. You have bad and/or aging players making too much money relative to their performance and no one in the system to step in. So, if Hahn decides to completely rebuild today and is able to trade Rios, Dunn, Peavy, Crain, Thornton, etc., do you honestly think that with the players he gets in return combined with what the Sox currently have in the system, that they will be competitive in the next couple years? Doesn't seem likely If they do their jobs properly, yes. You acquire a ton of prospects/unproven MLB players and you add that to what you have in-house. In the end you look to pull out 4-5 position players including the likes of Viciedo/Flowers/Gillaspie who are already here trying to stick, you get 1-2 starters including Johnson, and 2-3 guys in the bullpen. You supplement that with FA signings, some of the bargain variety, and then you take some of your prospects and look to trade them off for proven players on good contracts to round out your team. If you can't pull that off in 2-3 years your whole FO should be fired. Expecting that to take 5 years is not only expecting a massive failure, it's also inviting and allowing that massive failure. You get dumb & start dumping all your good young players for prospects and you end up like the Mariners, the Orioles forever until last year, the Pirates for years, the Tigers for years, the Royals forever until they finally tried to improve themselves last year, etc.