The Ultimate Champion

Judging by last years commercials I think Brooks Boyer has been on life support for a while now. Every single person responsible for those TV ads including those who were contracted to produce them as well as those who greenlighted them as well as whoever pushed the button that aired them on television deserves to be whipped, beaten, and fired.

Gardner is too expensive as a rental. I doubt they'd take it but I'd offer them Dunn + DeAza for Ichiro + Soriano ($11.5M Yankees owe there) + prospect Dunn could be platoon DH and DeAza is more of the 4th OF Ichiro takes DeAza's spot in CF until we trade him, Soriano takes Dunn's spot until we trade him, Leury/Danks is the backup CF... Dayan can play at DH when a backup is in CF with Ichiro in LF, and we save money by switching to Ichiro

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 05:53 PM) At any position other than 1b? Let's talk. At the same position the most important player on our roster plays? No. That's why I hate the Konerko signing so much. Throw in a guy who isn't obviously a part time/platoon player at the same position? My god no. Please no. I beg of you. Hahn has made it clear that the development of Abreu and Avisail is the most important aspect of next year's offense. You don't have to worry about anyone taking anything away from him. I'm just throwing s*** at the wall re: Loney as a stopgap IF the Sox think Abreu is more of a DH.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 04:08 PM) What the f*** are you talking about? He put up a .903 OPS in AA last year, which lead the Southern League for all qualified hitters. I'm not sure how that OPS is "not very attractive", clearly you didn't really follow him much. And while he wasn't as good in AAA during his brief time there, which should shock no one, he still managed to put up .802 OPS. What's funny is that Semien is completely underrated. In most organizations, a 22 year old middle infielder that puts up a .420 OBP with decent power would be heralded as a future star, but since he's a member of the Sox's farm system he's not considered toolsy enough which is bulls*** IMO. And for what it's worth, I don't think he'll be a star, but I do think he'll be a extremely productive major league 2B because he has great plate discipline and can do a little bit of everything. His potential is way higher than Gordon's as Beckham isn't very good. Semien is a nice spect but let's not get carried away. Beckham still has loads of ability at the plate if anyone can ever get it out of him. Semien may be the better player in the end though, who knows. I do however agree with what you're saying in this thread about not wanting to trade for more 2B prospects when we already have a good one in Semien who is close to being ready.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 04:14 PM) At least with Konerko and Dunn, people can make the excuse that they're "part time players". James Loney, being put in at 1b? Come on. Loney hit .299/.348/.430 last year with the Rays in the AL East. He's a lefty bat, plays D at 1B, makes contact (77 K in 549 PA) and he's 30 next year. A 2-3 year stopgap who doesn't cost a draft pick? Nice bridge piece IMO. I mean he adds balance at low cost, not a big name, no draft pick, no need to deal a prospect.... sounds really like the kind of player Hahn seems to be pursuing.

^Also, as a rebuilding team in a large market playing in a hitters park, we are actually a marquee landing spot for some of the best talented-but-underachieving players out there should we open up some more PAs. Any agent with a former top prospect client in need of playing time is going to try to direct his client to a situation exactly like ours. All we need are a couple guys & pretty soon we'll start looking like contenders again because we'll have the pitching.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 02:48 PM) I like how all offseason we've been craving LH hitters yet we now just want to dump Dunn. Dumping Dunn will make me hate the Pauley move because I only love it as part of a platoon. Pauley doesn't want to play full time, nor should he after breaking down down the stretch in 2012 and being garbage in 2013. We wanted LH hitters because we face a lot of RH pitching, Dunn had the highest OPS against RH pitching and we wanna dump him. Garcia had the next highest OPS vs RHP(in only 129 abs) and then were looking at Beckham as the guy who put up the next highest ops vs RHP, and we wanna dump him as well. Dunn's future means absolutely nothing to this team. He's here because he's owed $15M. His GM just publicly acknowledged him as a limited platoon player who may need to step aside in certain areas for the good of the team. Why do you even care if he's here? I'd rather the Sox try to do something like what the Cubs did with Schierholtz and what really every rebuilding team does by signing someone with some ability and throwing him out there, seeing if you can get some value. This is what the Nats did with Morse, the Phils weren't really rebuilding but they found Werth a spot, etc. There are non-tenders, rule-5 guys, waiver claims, rebuild-their-value free agents, etc. all out there, and any one guy with any amount of youth and potential that could take Dunn's PA away would have at least some chance of helping us in the future, whether that be from said player's contributions or by dealing him off for prospects later.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 02:47 PM) Just what we need. To take even more playing time from Abreu. Nobody is taking anything away from Abreu. Hahn's said this the whole time, and reiterated it again this morning. What are you not hearing? Hahn says the guy will need some breaks. You're talking about someone who has never spent such a long season playing and having to do it against the toughest pitching in his life. He will be in there when he's performing, and if/when he hits a couple major snags ala Alexei Ramirez's April coming out of Cuba then he will get a breather. Let's not Hawkins this guy right out of the freakin gate for crimminey christ.

Hahn when asked about other big signings coming in the future kind of side-stepped the question by saying that there is still room in the budget but not to expect any 9-figure salaries. However, dumping Dunn and say signing James Loney as a stopgap upgrades 1B/DH considerably at the dish and in the field, plus adds much needed contact while preserving the power through Abreu/Paulie and keeping a lefty bat there. Abreu's write-ups don't make him sound like a defender. This could be something they are looking at, especially since if someone like Loney hits in the Cell he is still young enough to where you can trade him for something & dump the remainder of the contract when you're ready to call up/trade for your long-term 1B.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 01:44 PM) Did you take the beginning of the interview as Hahn putting the Konerko signing squarely on Reinsdorf? That's what i heard Yes, but his honesty there leads me to believe that he really does want Paulie back as it is. I really like the idea of what they're doing with Paulie here, and I think people are overreacting a bit re: AB for younger players. I think Dunn is probably a goner, and if they simply dump him for nothing but get another team to cover $2.5M of Dunn's deal then they've essentially opened up a full season of ABs for another OF while subbing Dunn's donkeyship for Paulie's leadership. Hahn makes a comment in there about having underperformed at the DH position for "several years" which is an ouchy on Dunn. And he also said that he talked to Steverson re: Dunn's possible role & expects Adam to fall in line. He gone IMO.

I listened to that interview and early on, in the background, you can clearly hear Hahn's phone ringing. Anyone want to speculate which team and trade proposal was on the other end? I'll say it was the Marlins which is why Rick didn't answer the phone, because he knows they always call collect & besides he doesn't want Lomer Morganson or whatever his stupid name is anyway.

QUOTE (Jake @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 12:09 PM) What kind of team would look at Beckham and Semien as relatively equal options? Beckham = more talent IMO, already a Major League player, but only short period of control remaining; if you think you can turn him around then you could get a nice package in return Semien = much longer period of control, good prospect, but not nearly as talented overall, not an established MLB player, and you're not even sure you'd consider him fully MLB ready at this point based on his peripherals during his call-up In our position we'd probably take Semien's control, but Houston has Altuve who maybe they will shop also. Beckham would represent at least a stopgap at a downgrade with the potential to turn the corner, whereas Semien may just look like a long-term downgrade from Altuve at the position. If Houston isn't planning on offering up Altuve at any point then I doubt they have much interest in our 2B players/prospects at this point, save for Micah Johnson possibly as an OF.

A couple other Castro trades that I think we could try in order to keep Johnson, Q, Hector: Reed + Beckham/Semien + Beck + Snodgress Nate Jones + M. Johnson + Beck + Snodgress We'd have to trade starting pitching to get Castro for sure, but we can afford to deal a 2B or 2B prospect plus Snodgress who'd be blocked, and you can always trade a reliever for a starting position player of equal or better quality.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 11:17 AM) Quintana would bring a lot more in return and we'd be selling high on him. And we'd also be trading away our 2nd best pitcher, weakening our strongest area from the top and pushing those at the bottom up, rather than working from the bottom and keeping what we have on top. But if you made the Castro-for-Quintana deal straight-up that would be a fair trade for both teams. I'd rather send out more pieces and have both players, if at all possible.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 10:13 AM) Honestly, I hate trading either guy, but if 2014 is going to be a transition year we're better off moving one of them for a young impact bat and having both Johnson & Rienzo in the rotation. The problem is that Quintana has a lot more value, but is also the guy you'd rather not give up. Building a trade for Castro around Santiago would require another couple of pieces and that's only if they really believe in Santiago's potential. I think this is definitely a trade worth exploring as Castro would be an insane upgrade over the crap we trotted out there last year. Hit them with Erik Johnson, Addison Reed, and their choice of Beckham or Semien (we build around Semien at 2B if they take Beckham or we keep Beckham and hope for Micah Johnson/other in 2 years if Beckham doesn't take another step forward). They would HAVE to think long and hard about that because that is seriously a haul. I don't believe in Rienzo, I think he's a #5 or a MR, but I really like Johnson and Beck. But if you go with a 4-lefty rotation to start the year, you can use Rienzo as your righty (or better yet sign a FA if you can) and then look for Beck to be ready by the time you trade Danks. You take your chances on finding the last righty in another deal or in house, maybe even as next year's #1. I would love to be able to keep both Q and Hector. Both look extendable, both look very good, both are hard working, over-achiever type players who have made a habit of getting the very best out of their abilities & making strides beyond where their ceilings are supposed to be. As lefties with nice arms, I don't want to part with them because although we're a little different, generally it's the lefties that are the hardest to find.

QUOTE (Tex @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 09:34 AM) I believe we need a short hand reference for "team with the worst record" or as I shall propose the Club Unsuccessful By Standings or CUBS. Now when we refer to the team on the bottom of the standing we can just say cubs. amiright? This is quality right here.

If we're dealing Santiago and more then I want Castro. Get someone who is already a finished product. No more unfinished product catchers please. The price difference between Sanchez & Castro is probably going to be worth it, whatever it is.

QUOTE (Tex @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 09:23 AM) I wonder how fast he would get banned if he was posting here? Nobody would understand his sarcasm.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 7, 2013 -> 08:54 AM) He was very classy 2 years ago when he berated Ventura on the team plane for allowing Beckham's gf to fly on the team plane. AJ was great on the White Sox and he helped the team win a World Series. Let's not pretend that he was some fantastic guy though. This is a cool thing that he is doing for a guy he respects. How about how he treats people he doesn't respect? Good ballplayer. Bad guy. Ha. WTF does Beckham's girlfriend need to be on the team plane for? Was there some dire situation where that was the only way she could get from Point A to Point B as quickly as possible? Beckham can use all that draft bonus money and arb salary he hasn't lived up to and buy her a first class ticket. AJ knows how this game is played. AJ knows how a team is supposed to be run, how a clubhouse is supposed to work, he knows both the rule book and all the rules that aren't written in there but should be. Beckham's girlfriend scenario, IF true, would be what you call an error of omission, not an error of commission, by Robin. Robin doesn't necessarily get nicked for it in the media because no one is scoring on it, but AJ is right in taking corrective action because it is the type of error that can lead to a whole host of greater mistakes later on. It's also laziness & lack of leadership to allow an unestablished and overall a fairly unimportant player such privileges. In fact, not having AJ around to help Robin along may have contributed to last team's horrible season. And IF there is truth to this, then I also believe that Beckham's girlfriend may have cursed this team in which case the plane should be thoroughly washed and blessed by several priests and Minnie Minoso and Steve Stone too just to cover all the bases.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 6, 2013 -> 11:19 PM) Just as a rule, I am not going to base my reality on Joe Cowley's word. You're feisty.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Dec 6, 2013 -> 11:08 PM) This where we disagree. Any trade for Sale would bring back major league ready talent. Take AZ for instance, guys like Davidson 3b, Gregorius SS, Parra etc. I'm not talking about A ball or AA ball players. At least a few of the players in return would be major league ready or already have gotten their feet wet which was stated earlier in this thread. Guys that can fill holes now as well as help in a year or so. This would speed up the rebuild, not slow it down. As for Q, he doesn't hold nearly the value of Sale at this point and well we still need starting pitching after a Sale trade so keeping Q is the smart move. Again its about Sale's crazy value and how the return can help now and later, not years down the road. Gambles. I guess I question Sale's short and long term durability. Reminds me too much of BMac but that's just my out-there opinion. Allow me to throw something crazy out there and I admit its more conspiracy than anything. One thing that has left me vary curious is why the Sox allowed Sale to throw 110+ pitches deep into meaningless September games while racking up 214 IP on what ended up a 99 loss team when this guy is your long term future ace at only 24 yo? It makes no sense at all. I know you want to build up his arm strength but it still made no sense to me unless (conspiracy part) they were show casing him for a trade this winter. Just a crazy thought is all. One thing I think we can agree on is the return has to include mlb ready talent along with a youn future front line pitcher. Nobody you're getting is going to be as good as Sale in all likelihood. You get MLB ready players headlining the thing then great, that's what you would want. But just because Sale may be worth 7 WAR doesn't mean you can acquire a 2 WAR OF and a 3 WAR SP and a 1 WAR RP and a 1 WAR UT guy and everything is equal. All those guys have to be paid through the arbitration process, and even if you lock them up, you probably just end up with a bunch of parts that cost more payroll space. Furthermore none of those faces belong on billboards, on programs, in commercials, nor do their talents deserve showcases on national broadcasts, etc. You're not going to replace Sale. Getting several very good MLB players serves exactly what purpose? When you DO get to the playoffs, where is your Game 1 stopper? What are your weapons? If you are in love with Gregorius you can get him without dealing Sale. If you are in love with this Davidson guy you can get him without Sale. Etc. You don't need to trade a filet mignon to afford 2-3 hamburgers. You can purchase smaller pieces separately. I posted earlier in this thread how we went over 1100 picks and 23 years between the 2 aces we have drafted and developed within my lifetime. You don't just trade them. The last thing I'm posting in this thread: Juan Uribe = acquired for Aaron Miles, nothing special DeAza, Jenks = waiver claims Viciedo, Abreu, Ramirez = signings out of Cuba Quintana = MiLB FA Thornton, Politte, D Marte, E Loaiza & his magical 2003 season, etc. = all very low-level acquisitions which turned into gold The list could go on and on. You don't need to trade one of the best players in baseball in order to acquire several much lesser pieces. That doesn't help. Hell, this time last year we had no Abreu, no Garcia. Peavy was looking at a $4M buyout to end a disappointing run, but instead he signs an extension, we trade him for Avisail, then some Cuban slugger defects, and what do we have? The makings of potentially a new middle of the order, all while having taken away exactly nothing from where we sat around this time a year ago. And you want to trade Sale?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 6, 2013 -> 10:46 PM) There is nothing there that actually shows that sd said they would do a Beckham deal. They weren't going to hold negotiations publicly. That's as much as fans ever get to know right there. There is no reason to believe the Padres wouldn't have taken that deal.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 6, 2013 -> 10:14 PM) Those two things contradict each other. One said he would, the other said he wouldn't. Though it is worth nothing the source who said he wouldn't. The Friarhood says the Padres would be foolish not to trade Adrian Gonzalez to the White Sox if they offer Gordon Beckham. ^That was a link on MLBTR's page from a Padres blog. The feeling at the time was that we had him if we went Beckham. We didn't. We loved him too much. Eventually Adrian went to Boston and no prospect there (Kelly was the centerpiece) was as exciting as Gordon was when Kenny said no.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Dec 6, 2013 -> 10:05 PM) TUC, The point I'm trying to make as far as the DBack fan thing is just trying see it from their perspective and not just a Sox fans perspective. In the end I agree, what do any fans know? In hind sight, with bad trades and FA signings the same can be said about GM's. It comes back to baseball players over all are a gamble whether its trades, signings, drafting or injuries. As far as keeping Q, its not about keeping Q, its about the possibility of a team in the market for an elite pitcher calling about Sale and his availablability and what that team would have to potentially offer up in return. Nothing to do with Q whatsoever. Its about Sale's value and the potentially insane return he could bring to a team with a bad farm and multiple holes to fill on the MLB roster. Due to Sale's youth, contract and the fact that he is so damn bad-ass his return would be potentially huge. As I said earlier in this thread, I admit that because of Sale's value he might be untradeable because his value would garner a huge return. A GM might not be willing to give up what Hahn would desire, then again a desperate gm just might which is what the discussion of a Sale trade is about. You deal Q if you deal Sale because at that point you are pushing your contention window back at least another year, probably 2 or 3. At that point you are more worried about players in 2016-17 when Q is expensive anyway. Might as well sell at the highest point. Re: gambles, proven players are far, far, far, far less of a gamble than talented but unproven ones, especially those who have never in their lives faced MLB hitters or MLB pitchers. That is a level that they cannot understand and have never known and you can't just say "Well Jimmy gets good grades in school so he can be an astronaut if he wants." Not that easy. The return for Sale, I agree there I guess, and I've been saying, it would have to be stupid. Most people here thankfully don't like the idea of trading Sale, but if he were traded, the deal would have to be so lopsided that even those here who would never get on board with the idea of trading him would have to admit that it was the right move to make. Sale's deal is so team friendly, such a tiny overall risk in money owed to what his performance already is - I mean you're looking at guy who would be pushing $30M per if he keeps it up the way the market is going, and we have him for the next 6 years at under $48M. That's f***ing insane value. You would have to get back such a massive haul.... nothing I have seen posted on here as a trade idea would work. It would have to be insane. It would have to be so nuts that there would be nothing to mull over at all.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 6, 2013 -> 09:46 PM) Did that actually happen, or is that urban legend? http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/adrian_gonzalez/page/12/ http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/adrian_gonzalez/page/13/ Peavy Has Spoken To White Sox About Acquiring Adrian Gonzalez By Mike Axisa [March 1, 2010 at 6:08pm CST] MONDAY, 6:08pm: Gonzalez said he is "flattered" by Peavy's campaigning on his behalf, reports Knobler. But Gonzalez unsurprisingly re-asserted his commitment to the Padres and said he hasn't made any trade demands himself: "I don't have any control about it. If [the Padres] trade me, they'll let me know after it happens. I don't even want to hear that they're talking about it." SUNDAY, 5:58pm: GM Kenny Williams first spoke to Peavy about Gonzalez in January, writes Joe Cowley of the Chicago Sun-Times. Peavy gave his stamp of approval, but the "feeling around 35th and Shields" was that it would take a package including Gordon Beckham to land the first baseman, and the White Sox weren't willing to go there. 1:58pm: Mark Gonzales at Chicagobreakingsports.com spoke with Peavy about his campaigning for Gonzalez earlier today. Peavy confirmed that he's spoken with Williams about the big first baseman. "I went into recruiting mode," Peavy said. Peavy speaks highly of Gonzalez as both a player and a person, and says that while Gonzalez loves San Diego, he wants to win and would go anywhere for a chance to do so. SATURDAY: Jake Peavy has already spoken to White Sox GM Kenny Williams about the idea of acquiring Adrian Gonzalez, reports Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com. Williams didn't need to hear it from Peavy, because Knobler says he plans to be first in line whenever Gonzalez is made available. "That's really what we need, a big left-handed hitter," one Sox person said. "They're saying Kenny would give anything to get him, maybe even [Gordon] Beckham." Although Chicago's lineup already features the lefty bats of Juan Pierre, A.J. Pierzynski, and Mark Teahen, none of them really qualify as a power bat. Gonzalez would certain rectify that, and since incumbent first baseman Paul Konerko may not be back next season, there's a natural fit. If the White Sox offer a package centered around Beckham, it's difficult to see any other team interested in the Padres' first baseman topping it.