The Ultimate Champion

OTOH imagine what a steal it would be for the Yanks to get 3 years of good John Danks for the cost of 1 year of Brett Gardner. That potential alone should make the deal fair in this pitching market. I mean, obviously any deal is pending physical and IIRC Danks has a partial NTC anyway, so NY would get to look him over first. The guaranteed $$$ on Danks is the real risk, and I think in the right deal you dump that risk off on someone else and forget about the extra pieces. Gardner = 1st round pick (unless it's a multiple signing scenario where you get a 2nd or 3rd), so yeah, I'd do a deal to alleviate that risk of burden for a good valuable piece now, especially since it opens a spot in the rotation. However, should the Sox trade another lefty AND also believe it's 75-80% or better that Danks is an excellent pitcher again, I don't make that deal.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 10, 2013 -> 09:24 AM) Why? If the scouting department likes him over Carlos Perez or any other Rule 5 eligible catcher, then bring him in. There's next to no risk involved. Best case scenario is that you get a starter and perhaps a very good starter out of the process. Worst case scenario is that you return them back and you're out $25K, which is chump change for a major league team. Yeah God forbid he forces Phegley to start the year in AAA. Best scenario IMO is we trade for a young catcher with past MLB success who we can all get excited about, take a Rule-5 guy, make Flowers and the Rule-5 guy fight for the backup job in Spring, Phegley is in AAA to start the year and later serves as trade bait/backup insurance, and who knows, maybe when it's all said and done we've turned this mess into a team strength.

QUOTE (southside hitman @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 11:50 AM) Or Sale could blow out his elbow, something that some people think is inevitable and we passed on several cornerstone players and have nothing to show for it. Would that set the franchise back five years? Then we shouldn't have so much invested in one player, we need a better team. Jose Abreu could look like the next Miguel Cabrera and then proceed to blow out his knee on a f***ed up slide during a 14-2 ballgame. The odds of an elite young player suddenly becoming ineffective is a whole lot smaller than some group of kids all turning into what you want them to. The whole reason people get excited about prospects is because they don't view them correctly & as they are. They are busts, underachievers, and maybe there's something really good in there too. Nobody would trade Sale for Ackley, Smoak, Montero/Pineda, etc. - name 6 Mariners busts and you have a deal that nobody in their right mind would make now but a deal that this board would have been ALL OVER if those players were 2 years back from where they are now. You trade Sale for 8 guys you get 2 guys who never factor into anything, a setup man or a closer, a utility guy/extra OF, some trade bait and a couple above average Major Leaguers who you then end up paying MORE in salary to than you're currently obligated to pay Sale & still none of these guys are marketable & none of them are stoppers should you make the playoffs. That scenario is a whole lot more likely than a brand new awesome video game team that's like the Rays which everyone is suddenly jealous off.

QUOTE (Baron @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 11:39 AM) I'm pretty sure the point was the prospects could bust and then your screwed. Right. They bust on the Major League field, not in Charlotte. They cost you seasons while you're waiting for them to turn into something, and as they cost you seasons, you maintain your "rebuilding" direction and continue to trade off the proven players you do have for more prospects while being mostly a non-factor on the free agent market because you suck.

QUOTE (southside hitman @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 11:10 AM) Possibly, but thats when you have to lean on your scouts. None of those guys are new to pro ball, all are either in the majors or fairly close (aside from Trahan I guess). Scouts opinion vary wildly on prospects, they are cost controlled lottery tickets in effect. Just depends on who you hedge your bets on. In another thread about trading Sale I looked at the 23 year gap bewteen Black Jack and Sale. In doing so I looked at the career WAR of every pitcher taken top-100 in his class during that 23 year period. Did you know that Nate Jones right now is already among the cream of the crop of that group? Nate Jones is one of the best pitchers we have drafted in the first 100 picks in over 2 decades. And people can think whatever they want about the Sox drafting low-upside McCulloghs and Broadways and stuff, but the Sox had some VERY big arms in there which didn't turn out. Jon Rauch for example has been one of best pitchers in that period that we have drafted and developed in the last 20+ years, and that guy also ranks as one of the biggest disappointments in the Sox system. There are what now, just like 30 rounds in the draft? How many international slots? We've got enough lottery tickets already. Don't need to trade the best asset we have had really since pre-arb Maggs at least (Sale has more value though I'm sure) and probably since Frank just to buy more lottery tickets.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 11:02 AM) Does anyone who ever voluteers to drive someone to the airport if they get traded, actually drive them to the airport when it happens? Mom, can I borrow the car? Huh? Sale needs the go to the airport. (arararararrrrrrfdgfgsasdf your father comes home gargagragradasdasdljafkjl) But it's Saaaaaallle!

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 10:57 AM) Now that Sale talks are heating up, I'd actually try to get teams in a bidding war. Package I'd ultimately settle on, from Dbacks: Eaton, Davidson, Owings, Bradley, Trahan, Skaggs and Delgado. Sox toss in Nate Jones. You then hope in a few years you get this... 1B - JDA 2B - Semien SS - Owings 3B - Eaton LF - Hawkins CF - Eaton RF - Garcia DH - Viciedo Quintana Delgado Santiago/Skaggs Johnson Bradley You need a God's Ransom for Sale. Nothing less. That looks nice on paper but in reality it's likelier that when it's all said and done Alejandro DeAza puts together a better Major League career than at least 3 of those guys.

^Also the only team that can make me want to do a Sale deal is the Dodgers. They're f***ing crazy, they might empty out their farm & give up Adrian Gonzalez at $5M per eating the remainder. Who knows. We'd need some team to do something STUPID and they're easily the #1 target for that kind of outcome. Edit: and trading a bunch of unproven prospects who have never done anything and mostly like will underwhelm if not fully bust for Sale isn't stupid, it's smart.

QUOTE (southside hitman @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 10:29 AM) Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN 49s Diamondbacks are among the teams with the most serious trade interest in Chris Sale -- IF they would agree to part with him. A big if. Bradley, Owings, Davidson, Skaggs, Delgado anyone? No, and I have zero faith in this organization to pull off a deal of this magnitude for prospects. As much as I love KW and while Hahn has grown on me, they aren't capable of doing this. We're the Rays.... Rays probably don't trade Sale just how they haven't traded Longoria, but sub out our FO with theirs and maybe you take back 8-10 guys. Not us. Kenny/Hahn will settle for a bunch of garbage. No way. We're not capable. For f***s sake jesus people they're going to ask Buddy Bell for his opinion. Bufddy f***ing Bell. Jesus Christ let's put this to rest, Sale doesn't need to go anywhere but out to the mound on Opening Day wearing a Sox uniform.

Even when the deals work out (they usually don't), the teams who trade their aces are doing that because they feel they are forced to. They know they can't/won't meet the FA pricetag and/or there's some injury concern. I think the injury concerns should be put to rest now with Sale & he should be viewed just as any other pitcher, i.e. sure it could happen, but an injury could happen to anyone. There should be no reason for the Sox to feel forced into trading Sale. OTOH the FA pitching market is crazy. Danks may actually have some value. Santiago might be able to bring in an Avisail-like young player if we play our cards right. I don't want to deal Q, but I think it's a whole hell of a lot more likely that we could pull off a Garza-to-Cubs deal with Q than make any trade with Sale which we wouldn't regret in 2 years & use as the #1 reason for argument in all the "Fire Rick Hahn" threads that would soon begin to pop up.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 09:48 AM) Oh, and to trade Sale, you need a return comparable to the Bedard/Sexson trades but probably more. There's no way you should make a deal for less. Sexson = parts, quantity over quality. Bedard was a great package for Bedard but an absolute joke of a deal for Sale. The Haren deal, the deal of those like 8 guys Boston offered for Felix way back... that might get you to "listen" on Sale. Think about this: you get someone to offer you a Prior or Wood or a Gavin Floyd type of prospect to headline a huge deal and there's a good chance you end up with a maddening overpaid starter who spends most his time on the DL or else some flakey headcase you ship out at a fraction of his value and watch him become a solid #3 for someone else - and that's actually if things go pretty well for you. When things don't go well you build your trade around a bunch of guys who get hurt and/or fall off and lose their stuff, and you get nothing at all.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 09:35 AM) Merkin and Hayes have both just reaffirmed most of our stances on Sale. Said Hahn would be crazy not to listen, but would have to be bowled over with a stupid offer to deal him. I cannot post the tweets currently. Hahn would be crazy to listen though. Hahn needs to find the SS who will anchor the infield on our next playoff team. Hahn needs to find our 3B of the future. Hahn needs to find our long-term CFer, he needs to fix the gaping hole that is the catching situation, he needs to add offense in the meantime to make Reinsdorf happy but not at the expense of the future. Hahn needs to balance the team, balance the payroll, improve the farm, and hopefully find a way to extract maximum value from a few smaller names like DeAza, Reed, Alexei, and maybe Beckham and Jones. The last thing Hahn needs to do is spend the most productive few days of the offseason dicking around with a bunch of idiots who want to waste his time throwing out underwhelming packages just because they don't want to pay a premium for Price. Don't want to pay a premium for Price? Then GTFO you don't have the stones to even speak Sale's name. Hahn needs to set these b****es straight. He's here to get s*** done right now and his is the only team he cares about improving.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 09:05 AM) If this were to happen, it would have to be a HAUL. I'm talking 6-8 players. Keep him Hahn or don't screw this up And those guys would have to be loaded with ceiling and with very high floors, and at least half of them need to be on the 2014 Opening Day roster. And at least 2 have to already be very good & somewhat proven at the MLB level. It would have to be stupid. "Pushing Hahn to consider" isn't even close to getting stupid. If we start reading that GMs "are making hilariously one-sided proposals which are so beneficial to the Sox that Hahn is wondering if they are pulling his leg" then it means we're getting close to a Sale deal.

And Reason #3487 why you don't trade Sale is that both Hahn with the Peavy & Rios deals and KW with the CLee/Pods deal, the 2nd Freddy deal, the McCarthy/Danks deal, etc. are GMs who will take a fair or much less than outstanding return in order to get the one player they really want. That thinking absolutely cannot apply to Sale. Sale trade is absolute rape & torture. Anything less would be uncivilized (and potentially catastrophic for the organization, sending us from a 1-2 year reload into a Cubbie-style "f*** it" rebuild). Morosi can find something else to do other than pester Hahn with his bulls***. If Hahn wants a big return on a pitcher he can shop Q to the teams in on Price and see what he comes up with. Q isn't the same kind of pitcher but he's also going to be a s***load cheaper for a long period of time, and he's also very good and extendable.

So we bring back the guy who was known for "jokingly" telling other teammates he would kill them JUST AFTER we sign his old coke slinger buddy from LA??? If this means we're finally going to kill Adam Dunn then I love the move. Hahn's a genius.

Ptatc is probably deserving of the benefit of the doubt here. I'm not saying he's a liar, he's one of our best posters & obviously he believes he's telling the truth. He probably even is. Maybe AJ isn't exactly a "perfect" teammate. But let's just go back in time for a sec here. We all remember that dropped third strike against the Angels which helped win us the game, kept us on our roll and ultimately resulted in a World Series Championship, but some of our younger fans may not know or remember that the opposing catcher in that situation who cost the Angels the game happened to be Josh Paul, who was one of many complete horses*** catchers that Sox fans had to suffer through during that long drought between Fisk and AJ. That play is emblematic of pretty much the entirety of the Sox catching situation during that period and it is also emblematic of pretty much the entire Sox team attitude during those years: stupid as Bevington, careless as Manuel, lackadaisical and under-committed like the entire unbalanced homer happy offense, etc. AJ coming here was the absolute best thing that could have happened, and we won a title in large part because of it. AJ is gone now. We're not a better team without him, but he's still gone. He's gone from our world. And when important people are gone from your world shouldn't you remember them for the best things that they did? Shouldn't you first think of their greatest moments before everything else? Shouldn't you choose to remember him more as you would have wanted him to be when you weren't there rather than how he may have been when you still weren't there but wish you were? For such a significant piece of Sox history, shouldn't we all just bury our heads in the sand when it comes to all this "clubhouse" malarkey and choose to remember him as a hero? Of course we should. And as far as Hawk being honored somehow not being a classy move, let's first consider what season we're in now. Now is a time for thinking about others. Imagine what this great tribute feels like if you're Hawk. Imagine you're sitting there in front of the fire, cozy & tucked into your loud multicolored flannel suit, sipping your beverage and thinking about what you might get yourself for Christmas this year as you gaze up at that giant stuffed bird which you also bought for yourself several decades ago to symbolize your human greatness - imagine you're sitting there when the phone rings, and it's your old buddy AJ, and he says he's going to wear your old #40 just for you, because you mean so much, and because he feels you deserve it. How great does this make Hawk feel? Think of that! It won't even matter how big his gift under the tree is this year, nor how expensive or superficial or self-gratifying, because the greatest gift has been given to him, it's right there his heart, to Hawk from your old pal AJ. For f***s sake people if that doesn't warm your f***in heart I don't know what could. Let's just cut it out from here on out. No more crap about AJ. You don't have to say he was a great teammate, but you don't have to say he was a bad one either. Let's treat him like the hero he is. It's the holiday season.

Maybe a good move for Hahn would be to tell all the other 29 teams that he'll listen on Q if they want to bowl him over. Let him take in a couple offers & then get back to the Pads and be like "See these other offers? See how your offer is s*** in comparison? Now you either get serious or GTFO. I ain't playing games homie."

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 8, 2013 -> 09:14 PM) Fair enough. Look at what they gave up for Haren. Multiply that a few times. Here's what might make me consider: Davidson, Eaton, Owings, Skaggs, Trahan, and Bradley. They can take Alexei and give us Gregorius too. Keppinger definitely gets on that plane also.

Since Garza doesn't cost a pick we could try to throw some cash at him real quick & pull him off the board while everyone is focusing on Tanaka. That would be ninja.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Dec 8, 2013 -> 07:42 PM) There is probably not a snowballs chance in hell that they take that deal. Beckham + Beck + Petricka maybe. That's way too much, Petricka + Beck I wouldn't even do for a guy we wouldn't be re-signing. Maybe you offer Danks + Beckham for Gardner and that Sanchez guy everyone wants, then look to spin Gardner off before the season starts, otherwise you keep him if you can't find your deal & let him reject the QO. Sox could then go 3 lefty with Santiago over Danks, Johnson at the #5, Rienzo in the pen as a LR, take the $$$ savings and add a short-term veteran RH starter to hold a place for Beck & eat innings should Erik struggle too much in his first full season.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 8, 2013 -> 06:50 PM) Our lowest budget in the last decade led to a World Series team, after they got rid of the bloated salaries of Ordonez, Carlos Lee and Valentin. Spending, in and of itself, doesn't guarantee a winner, either. You mention 2005 and that offseason. Crede was I believe arb eligible (not much $$$), Uribe was cheap, Rowand and Pods cheap, a cheap pen, Dye came here on a sweetheart deal, same with AJ, the Yanks were paying Contreras a good chunk of his salary, McCarthy was minimum, El Duque a bargain... that team was full of value. Sale offers some of the best value in the league factoring in production vs. salary, so going all 2005 would probably involve keeping players like that and trying to find more of them on the trade & FA market.

There should be a separate forum just for Sale trade talk, kind of like Trade Winds but maybe call it Egg Winds or something like that. You could use it to keep all the Sale trade talk in one place and since the topic gets so much attention you could also use it to make money for the site by allowing advertisers to post links to their products and services in there. And for a small fee you could allow them to post their links in a much larger font so that it makes it difficult to click on "Sale to Royals???" or "Diamondbacks interested in Sale" because you keep accidentally clicking on "Natural Male Enhancement NOW!" and "Soccer Mom Earns $2000 per Month Cash From Home!" and "Hi I'm Britney wanna see my cam." I think that's a great idea.

There's no reason not to make a $20M bid and throw a good number at him, can't hurt because you're not out any $$$ if he signs elsewhere. Maybe you follow the Billy Beane/Cespedes model and offer a shorter deal or else maybe longer deal like everyone else but with a player option in the middle of the deal ala the Andrus contract. Add in something like paid interpreter, clubhouse assistant, personal staff etc. and give him a creative NTC that allows him to pick 3-4 teams every year which he can veto a trade to. Just get as creative as possible contractually & try to give him more flexibility, sell him on the Cell + pitching coach/past pitching success + likely a serious contention window starting in 2015.

QUOTE (striker @ Dec 8, 2013 -> 06:31 PM) Gardner for Beckham straight up. They need a 2B. Gardner is better but they get 2 years of Gordon. If the FO has already moved on from Beckham and is viewing Semien as the likely 2B of the future then that would be a nice way to buy a draft pick.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Dec 8, 2013 -> 12:31 PM) A trade for Headley with an extension and Grandal would be fantastic. The cost would be pretty high though. Santiago + Reed + Beck + Beckham/Semien + Snodgress, would that get it done? Assuming Headley extends, the price would be worth it IMO.