The Ultimate Champion

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ May 2, 2013 -> 10:56 AM) Sigh. Context. I was responding to the false statement that I "love parroting the idea that nobody ever liked AJ." Most Sox fans did love AJ. I'm not interested in whether stats geeks or traditionalists are bigger meatheads. I just think that any Sox fan who didn't appreciate what AJ contributed to the Sox over the years and is happy that he got hit last night is probably a meathead. Anyone who can't appreciate what AJ did here doesn't know baseball. I know this sentence is ban-worthy under the rules or whatever, but it is true. AJ was an excellent catcher for us and if you ignore that then you simply do not understand baseball. At all. That's it. This forum hates it's greatest players though, same with WSI. The best hitter in franchise history was called "The Big Skirt" for years. Say enough?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 2, 2013 -> 10:37 AM) I would say the opposite honestly. The stats people didn't like AJ nearly as much. The people who think there is more to the game than stats are the ones who liked AJ the most. Which of those two sounds like the meathead fans? People who understand that there is waaaaaay more to the game than stats = intelligent baseball fans People who focus on stats all the time = nerds who don't get it Meatheads = people who don't understand the game at any level & start every Sox-oriented baseball conversation with something like "so those Cubbies really suck don't they?" Soxtalk doesn't have any meathead fans. Lots of intelligent baseball fans though & a couple nerds probably, but some of the most stat-heavy fans here clearly understand the game even if they want to pretend that they don't in order to justify a stance/further an argument.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ May 1, 2013 -> 11:55 PM) Anyway, throwing at AJ was stupid. And this too.

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QUOTE (greg775 @ Apr 24, 2013 -> 05:07 PM) Something changed for him starting last season. He seems so comfortable always at the plate. I think it was the offseason spent golfing. He finally figured a way out of his own head.

QUOTE (Cali @ Apr 23, 2013 -> 02:15 PM) And that's a s***ty way to to business. Be afraid of a deal that is so old now, it could get it's learners permit. QUOTE (Cali @ Apr 23, 2013 -> 02:18 PM) Except, they should have just let him walk the next yeah instead of signing him to a (as of right now) AWFUL contract. Another s***ty way of doing business is to avoid good players and avoid long-term contracts just because one day someone **might** get hurt. You can't judge in hindsight. The logic was sound when Danks was extended, just like the logic was sound when we signed Dunn. Neither of those deals worked out, but the thought process was there and that is all that matters. Expecting an organization to never make mistakes is pretty stupid because the only thing it sets you up for is failure and disappointment no matter who is in charge of what organization.

There's no reason to target a team's 1-2 prospects if it is a very good organization. Why pay the highest price for talent? Seems stupid. These lists are mostly garbage anyway. You have your scouts target players at positions of need at every level above A ball in every organization you would trade with and then have those guys focus on the ones they like, especially if those players play for teams that seem to possess an excess at the position you need and a deficiency in the area you would trade from. At no point do prospect lists ever matter. I trust the Sox ability to place bets. When it comes time to put their money where their mouth is on a prospect or unproven MLB-ready player, I like their chances, assuming they have done their research. Kenny didn't seem to know much about Nestor Molina when he acquired him, and that's a problem, you can't just hire a new guy and let him pick the players you deal for without doing the leg work, but assuming Kenny, Hahn, Paddy, and Bell are all on the same page re: a prospect or unproven MLB-ready young guy, I believe in their ability to acquire new core pieces. And as always I would much rather target several highly talented players who have fallen out of favor than go "fan style" and gush over some prospect who is just about as physically talented as the other guy but three times as expensive. We shouldn't be looking for Profars, we should be looking for more Gillaspies. Find the next Uribe to replace Alexei. Let's get a legitimate CF because DeAza shouldn't be in the long-term plans. Let's forget about our own OF prospects with holes in their games, make them force their way into the picture, and look to acquire RSHP and skill position players. Budget signings are good too. But don't go after anyone just because he's out there -- I've seen Casper Wells mentions on this board, but obviously the Sox don't feel he's a MLB player because they haven't traded for him -- just go after talent that you believe in and can commit to, because we're getting to that point where we'll be sending out scouts with the intention being to sell, not buy, and the players we get will need to have ABs and IP.

They need to be as patient with Danks as possible. If they can get him back and looking like the old John Danks around early June (fingers crossed), then the Sox have more than a month to showcase him for a trade. We're not trading Peavy and with no RHSP depth it would be ridiculous to do it unless he specifically requests out, but trading a healthy John Danks to a team in need of good LHSP could really help this organization a lot, since we could expect a couple good looking pieces in return, a large salary off the books, and then Santiago gets the 5th slot. We'd essentially drop a contract and pick up potential future pieces and all we'd have to do after is ask Hector & Axelrod to swap their current roles, where both are likely to fit much better anyway.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 22, 2013 -> 06:06 PM) This and your first post in this thread, Jake, have been the two best posts in the thread, in my humble opinion. Everyone needs to stop believing that improving = dump everyone good for prospects. If it were that simple, we'd see a lot more of the Royals and Pirates in the playoffs. The key is, as Jake so wisely put it earlier, is to stop spending money poorly. We need to find inefficiencies in the marketplace and capitalize upon them. We need to invest in good developmental coaching. We need to continue to have outstanding medical staffs and training staffs. We need to put money we allocate for the draft into selecting the positions or types of players that are the most difficult or expensive to acquire otherwise. Trading anything of value to throw as many prospects against the wall and hoping they stick is not the answer. Especially now that most of the League is obsessed with the value of prospects...in fact, the League is so obsessed with them, that I'd argue (and I have argued for a few years now) it's not even worthwhile to trade for prospects in most instances, but rather for mlb players with track records in areas of need. What we could get in a deal for a partial year of an up-and-down and/or old player (Paulie, Floyd, Thornton, etc.) is probably the same caliber of prospect we could pick up on the waiver wire, as a DFA, MiLB FA, Rule-5 draftee, etc. which is someone with talent, who another team gave up on. With this being the case, we have what we need to acquire another Thornton, Uribe, Quintana, Quentin, Damaso Marte, etc. Most of our really good players over the years have come to us on sweetheart deals via scouting.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 22, 2013 -> 05:30 PM) There are some pretty solid potential bats available around the infield. Robinson Cano is obviously the prize, but some other names like Jhonny Peralta, Brian McCann are on the list as guys who regularly produce. Then there's a good number of guys who might be able to give you moderate production or short deals: Utley, Morneau, Morales, Adam Lind, Mike Morse, Stephen Drew if he stays healthy this year. 3b is pretty weak, and outside of Granderson and Ellsbury the OF doesn't impress me, but there are some other DH types in there as well. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/2014...ree-agents.html One of the silver linings with the Dunn/Paulie lack of production/age, need for an impact bat situation is that DH is open, which is the easiest place to put a big bat. We could theoretically acquire a traditional #4 hitter because we can offer a mix of DH and part time position work with the guarantee of 500+ AB.

The Tigers model? The Tigers were horrible for a number of years and watched supposedly excellent prospects fizzle out and turn into bench players, or like Carlos Pena, break out elsewhere.; The Tigers got back on top following two massive overpays to Magglio Ordonez and Ivan Rodriguez, coupled with a couple nice trades, namely acquiring Carlos Guillen, and then getting a few good years out of Bonderman did it. After that the Tigers were in a mess of really bad deals. Robertson, Guillen, Inge, Ordonez, Bonderman, Willis, etc. you looked anywhere and there was a bad contract. Their owner ate it - here's something the Cubs are doing - and the big move there was picking up Edwin Jackson from the Rays and trading him with Granderson for Scherzer and Austin Jackson, which is one of the best deals a team can ever make. Drafting Verlander doesn't count, because he's the best pitcher of his generation and one of the best pitchers to ever live, and players like that simply do not come around, you don't get them. They offered the right mix to the Marlins for Cabrera though, but the package they offered turned out to be vastly inferior to the one we offered, and so you really have to credit the Marlins for making that deal happen. Especially since no team other the Marlins are cheap and petty enough to trade a young Miguel Cabrera. What the Tigers did that the Cubs can do is overpay for free agents and then eat the bad deals that result, and then look to acquire big names in trades when they are out there because they can afford it. Tearing everything down didn't help the Tigers: the centerpiece of the Cabrera deal was Maybin who fell in the draft due to signability issues, same way they got Porcello. The draft has changed and this stuff isn't going to be happening all the time like it had been. What the Cubs need to do is make those Austin Jackson/Max Scherzer deals, find the Doug Fisters, find the Carlos Guillens, etc. and you don't need to load the field with garbage to make that happen. In fact, the better pieces you have out there, the better the return. For instance, rather than toss all that money at Soler and Concepcion, what if they had waited until the end of FA, signed Bourn and whoever else was out there, and then ate a bunch of money and sent those players off for prospects at the AA level or above? Because if money -> prospects -> core of good pre-arb players is the gameplan, there are other ways of doing it while still putting something viable on the field.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 21, 2013 -> 06:40 PM) Cubs are absolutely doing it the right way. Whether it works or not who knows, but that's the way to do it. Simply discrediting it because it's the Cubs is silly, plus it's all new management anyway. IMO the "right way" is compiling a good team built on pitching and defense that has enough long-term controllable pieces to mix in vets on short deals and provide for the failings of young players, and ideally this team contains many contracts which, if high in annual $$$ amount, are over after short periods, but most contracts are in the arb or pre-arb stage, where most players (non-stars) are generally going to be both at their most productive levels and also cost-efficient. Now, if I'm wrong and "the right way" is actually about throwing money at unproven prospects and bad vets to make them go away, and also, if it means filling the field with garbage (beyond what the fans are expected to throw on there normally) then I guess they are doing it the right way, because they suck balls and just about none of the financial commitments have translated into anything of real on-field value, and aren't expected to do so until *maybe* a few years from now. No fan wants to go through summer with baseball nothing more than an afterthought. Baseball is fun, summer is fun, it's nice to have the two together. Cubs fans are miserable now and hoping for the future... gee so that's so different from how it's been these last x number of years. I'm at least glad the Sox want to win at some point here. I disagreed with Hahn's offseason but the offseason I thought he should have had might be coming in about a month and a half, maybe early if KW is throwing s*** around in his cushy new office.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 21, 2013 -> 07:08 PM) OTOH, the only thing that avoided this rebuilding process in the first place was the injection of Alexei, Carlos Quentin, Floyd and Danks into the 2008 team...and living off Buehrle/Dye/AJ/Konerko/Crede/Rowand/Jenks as long as possible. Alexei = FA signing out of Latin America, as was Dayan, and we've made a few of those recently. CQ got here by trading Chris Carter, who at the time was another prospect with major flaws in his game who couldn't get recognition as a game-wide top-100 prospect. The guy we got in return would have had an MVP if he hadn't been angry and stupid at the same time. We're still holding talented-but-unheralded prospects other teams want, and there are always players in other organizations that have fallen out of favor. There's no reason to believe we can't come up with something, maybe not like Q, but good enough. Floyd and Danks got here by trading a young SP from an area of excess (check) and trading a vet with a year remaining (check). With the right moves we can do that again. Paulie we picked up via trade for a good young MLB player we developed but thought we didn't want/need. We have this also and can make that kind of deal with Viciedo if we found the right guy. Jenks = waiver claim. We're in a good waiver spot now. AJ & JD were smart FA signings on a budget. Hahn's best trait so far is his contract negotiation ability. Out of all those players you mentioned we have developed only 3 of those players ourselves: Buehrle (38th round, 1139 overall), Rowand (1st round, 35th overall), and Crede (5th round, 137 overall). Note how the highest pick wasn't all that high and he's also the lesser of the 3. Caulfield, I know you have been around here for a while. I remember you back from the WSI days. I have been on Sox boards since 2003 and the one recurring theme all these years (aside from hating ownership, the GM, and some of the best pieces of franchise history) is that the fans always want to rebuild at the first sign of trouble/weakness and yet at the same time they absolutely cannot stand losing. What the Sox have done is turn that 2003 team (remember all those rebuild calls after choking on the Twins?) and turned it into a World Champ 2 years later. Then they turned that stacked, but ultimately disappointing 2006 team into another division winner 2 years later, a veteran team of course, but one led by youth in Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Alexei. After that came the Ozzie ego years, but there is no doubt those 2011 & 2012 squads had the talent to win. We're here where we are now because the players didn't win, and so we're in another down period where we're waiting to form our next core, which BTW with potentially 4 good LHSP we're probably not too far away from. What the Sox have done, at least since I've been hanging around these miserable online fan forums, is basically spit in the faces of the rebuilders again and again and prove that they don't need to do it Cubbie style (another name for rape IMO) and can put out good, quality playoff type teams after short down periods by capitalizing on their scounting ability, mainly with players in other organizations. By making that list you've pretty much admitted they've done that but yet here we all are with our hate and anger and fire breath, and I don't think that's called for.

Also I think it's not a psyche thing re: Dunn as much as it is a lack of left-handedness and "respect" of veteran status from the organization. It's like when you get a big flood and everything is underwater, well, you can sit there and talk about how bad the sewer stinks & be all down about it while you wait for the water to recede or you can pretend you're in the Bahamas & put on your trunks & go swimming. Robin is the type to swim in s*** & pretend its something else while everyone else just complains about it, but that's because he's an optimist, and he knows that the s*** is going to be there whether you feel like swimming or not.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Apr 16, 2013 -> 09:09 PM) How long does he have to struggle like this before Robin moves him way down in the lineup? How much say does the Front Office have in the matter, due to say contract issues? Obviously the front office has way smarter people applied to this than us, but let's get it all out on the table. Do we really have to watch him sink the ship for another 2 years? If we replace him with a feared hitter we could be talking playoffs; it's that simple to me. Why isn't he held accountable for underproducing? Why is his psyche too fragile to be moved down? If he can't make contact, he can't hit fourth. f*** him. We need another feared hitter to team with Paulie. Playoffs c'mon lets go! The FO has full control & Robin will do whatever they tell him to do. Which means Robin will play Dunn & bat him high so long as that is what the FO wants. Personally, as long as more talent continues to filter in and we create that extended playoff window we're supposedly building for, then I don't care as much about the ship sinking as the personnel on it. Dunn's contract is what it is & if we need to eat it then so be it. And if Paulie isn't healthy enough to play 1B everyday anymore then that is even more the reason to eat the contract & send him packing, because we need to try someone else at 1B in the meantime with an eye toward the future, whether that is Dayan or someone else from outside the organization. Dunn just isn't a factor whether we're good or not, and if we're going to sink then let's sink with someone else playing 1B, LF, and with someone else benefitting from those ABs.

QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Apr 16, 2013 -> 08:05 PM) Despite the sarcastic purpose of this thread, DJ has grown on me in the (radio) booth. It was a bummer when he and Stone traded spots because Stone was a perfect fit with Farmer, and the transition wasn't always a smooth one, but I've come to enjoy it. Sarcasm?! I LOVE DJ! DJ is the best, especially when you're busy and you pick up bits of the game here and there. Tonight I got the bit about Japanese ballplayers (DJ truly is an expert on Japanese culture & Japanese baseball as a whole) and then later I pick up a bit about him sitting in the outfield picking dandelions in little league, and later yet I perk my ears up and he's laughing about a kitty cat playing with a ball. I love DJ so much, he's awesome, definitely my favorite.

Today (just now) DJ explained that Japanese players have strong legs and extra flexibility in their legs because in Japan they have to s*** in a hole in the floor as opposed to a normal Western-style toilet. I have learned so much from DJ that I think a thread is in order, as a means of creating a running list, so that DJ's wisdom doesn't go to waste. I hope I am not the only one to update this as DJ is a very bright individual & more fans should listen to what he says.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Apr 15, 2013 -> 10:12 PM) He's right in this case. You need to look at each game with a level head. There are a decent amount of teams in baseball that would like to have a pitcher like Gavin Floyd at the right price. His inconsistency and his inability to take advantage of his good stuff is infuriating at times, but he is what he is and it's not like you're paying him ace money. Agree. It's harder to watch though when you're losing & you've seen it so many times before. When you lose you want to see something different, fresh, younger, etc. Gavin is supposed to be pitching for a contract here & so far (though it is very early) he's pitching like a 3/$18-21M pitcher instead of a 4/$40M+ pitcher and that's a hard pill to swallow when you know he's not part of your core and your only interest is what you will get out of him when you do eventually deal him. That said we can still turn this thing around, and a homestand against the Twins is a nice place to start, but to me so far it's not looking all that great.

Very few teams EVER get big-time hotshot prospects in large deals and then end up getting what they thought they had paid for. If you do the homework you can come up with some very good pieces out of Crain, Thornton, Floyd, possibly Paulie, etc. You trade Peavy & you are being a dickhead for one and you're probably losing the deal on the talent side of things for two, and third, you're removing a personality and a leader from a team whose current vets mostly have one foot out the door, and you're potentially killing your entire pitching staff to boot. Bad move. Let's think here, who are our best pieces now? Sale, who no one would ever trade us anyway, and the type of player you have to draft. Q, Santiago, Gillaspie, and DeAza were all acquired for a combined low draft pick and Jeff Soptic, etc. We don't need to make huge deals to build a core.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Apr 11, 2013 -> 08:01 PM) Why, again, did we not make a bigger deal of Alexrod inexplicably being given the 5th starter spot? I don't think anyone disagreed that Santiago is better now, better long-term, more deserving, etc. and that's probably why there wasn't a 20 page long thread on it. I just kind of sat back and watched with a kind of stupid curiosity, like when someone drives up to your garbage cans by the side of the road and stops and starts going through the bags, and then pulls out a plastic plate or something and looks at it briefly like it's possibly worth taking, and you're just like,... what the f*** is going on here?

No way in hell you trade Peavy. The Jakemeister gave us a major sweetheart of a deal to stick around here & it would be a total b**** move to ship him off elsewhere unless he personally requested a deal. Besides, a rotation with 3-4 lefties in it cannot have 2 revolving doors/black holes in it from the right hand side, and if Peavy goes, that is what happens, and it makes it harder on everyone including the players (Q, Santiago) you're trying to develop. Plus we need more of Peavy's attitude and grit and fierce in-game ballsy competitor fireyness and less of what we've been seeing on nights like tonight, no way in hell you trade your leader.

QUOTE (JoshPR @ Apr 15, 2013 -> 09:08 PM) What In God's earth could that tool possibly be defending? Who is he blaming now? Ranger's basic points were that 1) despite Gavin's performance the game was still winnable and 2) that Gavin is a mid-rotation starter, and like all mid-rotation starters they have some good performances and some bad performances. Ranger is right in what he's saying, however I'm tired of scatterbrained Gavin going out there are taking the night off on the mound and I know I'm not the only one.

Okay I just put on some acid washed jeans 2 sizes too small, I got moose in my hair (not that oine god rest his soul as we remind all of our friends with coins and thank them for tgheir service) and my shirt is very tight also. And my shirt contains lots of bright colors. Okay so the cassette tape is in the boombox and now I'm going to crank the volume, and so here's my "Livin' On A Prayer" thought of the day: maybe Adam Dunn is playing all this field stuff recently to increase his trade value so that the Sox can dump him. I know he's not going to bring anything back in return but ATM he's our Soriano & the roster space is probably worth more to us than anything. I would expect little salary relief (very little) but I hope it's true. It's my thought anyway. Tghoughts on my thought? I hope it works out & Hahn can dump this guy soon. Also I'm not down on the year at all or anything, I just want this guy gone really bad.