Flash Tizzle

I don't think you people understand the issue here. Hernandez is TERRIBLE. Why exactly would we acquire him? What purpose would he serve? I'd rather have every current starter, Haeger, Tracey, Broadway, Gonzalez, etc. You know, suggesting "low risk high reward" for every medicore player our organization has interest in is really beginning to annoy me. People throw it around without further validating their points. Atleast lie and try to convince me such a move would be warranted. If Hernandez actually had a successful career to look back upon, a decent arm, a figure not resembling the blob, or injuries which have plagued his career, perhas I'd be interested. As of now, we have better options within. I doubt it'll come to us, anyways. Can't believe no other team would be willing to actually give him an opening to pitch within their bullpen or perhaps starting rotation. He wouldn't be guaranteed a position on our ballclub.

QUOTE(bmags @ Dec 8, 2006 -> 09:59 AM) haha, this thread I'm glad to have been alive to witness to such a historical event within Soxtalk history. It's even funnier now that people have become upset with the entire process. LOLLERZ. I can only assume Gregory Pratt will reign until death. Therefore, another election may not occur for 60-70 years. Oh well.

Cmon now, people. I don't know which Runelvys several you have been watching, but starts against us club aside, he's no better than any soft-tossing scrub our minors may produce. There's really no use for him, at all.

QUOTE(sox-r-us @ Dec 8, 2006 -> 12:10 AM) Why not? I do not see this love affair for McCarthy. He is unproven and has shown signs of being bombed at the Cell. I am ok if we give up McCarthy to get Crawford. Crawford is what this team needs atop it's batting order and I think Ozzie wants him badly (just a hunch) I am of the opinion that the following occured in the Winter meetings. Kenny got serious with the DRays and asked for what it would take to get Crawford or Baldelli from them. DRays said they would not take somoene like Garcia or Buerhle for Crawford since they would not be able to sign him after one year and hence, they would only take a young pitcher at the cusp of pitching in the majors like BMac. Kenny did not want to give up BMac before making sure he has some more young arms in the system. Hence he pulled off the Garcia deal. Now he will go back to the DRays and ask them who do they want out of Floyd, Gio and BMac to seal the deal, and probably pull it off soon here. Maybe something similar can occur with Baldelli as the target too, though in that case the young pitching we give up might not be as good as BMac. You don't understand the love affair with McCarthy, yet somehow Floyd's addition makes him expendable? You do know Floyd has fared even worse than McCarthy, right? Even is Brandon (and likely an additional P prospect) were packaged to Tampa for Crawford, is it worth trading Garcia/McCarthy/Gonzalez all in one offseason for Floyd and Crawford? I wouldn't think so.

Greg won Soxtalk's inaugural presidential election because he utilized Soxtalk's back-alley alliance of misfits and hooligans -- the chat crew. We've taken down powerful foes in the past, and this particular challenge --while tough-- once again proved victorious. Oh, and I didn't read any of his political platforms. How's that for Chicago politics?

QUOTE(sox-r-us @ Dec 8, 2006 -> 12:00 AM) I think that quote by the Sox Exec to Phil Rogers is very telling. The Sox might very well be targetting getting Crawford and to do that, they may give up some of the young pitching they just acquired or McCarthy. Once Floyd's name was mentioned in the trade I hade this feeling the White Sox were suddenly more willing to trade McCarthy. I certaintly hope not, but it's just an ominous feeling I have.

QUOTE(SinkingShip06 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:58 PM) i am just totally disappointed by what i'm hearing from our organization. also i hear alot of JR in KW's comments. i think JR feels its time for a fire sale. we'll still have decent attendance and ratings for a year or two. why not dump salary so he can finally stuff some of that loot into his pockets. Might as well address this right now, because it will turn into a fifteen page thread otherwise -- Reinsdorf operates this club under a business model of, at worst, breaking even financially. I doubt anyone within the White Sox organization is stuffing their pockets with money. $10 million will be in use come 2007, whether it's for a various players' contract extensions or using it towards an acquired player's salary.

What is disappointing for me is I honestly believed our over abundance of starting pitching, within this skewed market, would translate into a general manager overpaying for the services of whichever starter; upcoming FA or not. Honestly, Floyd/Gonzalez is about what you would expect from Garcia if everything were equal. That is, pitchers paid according to the abilities. Problem is, the recent salaries of mid/low rotation starters has shown this certaintly is not the case. It should have been easy to atleast find someone willing to pay slightly above value. I believe whichever move is upcoming -- whether that's persuing another bat or not -- this Garcia deal will be viewed entirely as a salary dump. Does it honestly sound to you like a move Williams thought, "well, better jump on this or else I may not get anything better." My ass. Whitesox, you mention Oakland and Minnesota. Both organizations share a common link -- recently, they were on the end of generous trades which were forgred from dealing from a position of strength. Remind me again what St. Louis received for Mulder? Or Minnesota for Pierzysnki? I'm tired of equal trades. I know people grow aggrivated with me continually bringing up LIriano/etc., but it would be welcomed if Williams could orchestrate a lopsided trade to benefit this club. Everyone knows nothing special is available within our system, our drafting philosophy is based more upon safety than projection, and suddenly -- according to Phil Rogers-- we're shutting out the veterans in our pitching staff as well as every other FA pitcher on the market. Awesome. Oh, and don't forget that Boras character either. Can't deal with him!!11 To think, I believed someone may have been willing to overpay for our starters. Even though I had this nauseating feeling Williams wouldn't come through, the potential was clearly present. Anyone just find it a bit troubling that in such a marketplace, with an absence of quality starting pticher, this is the best we could get? Guess such a dream scneario will have to happen to another team, as it always seems to do.

QUOTE(Whitewashed in @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 12:34 AM) Is it just me or does this seem like a bad thing from a business stand point? I mean to us, if we were to pull a Marlins restocking method then we need to do it soon. Don't even suggest we're pulling a Marlins........ Atleast they're capable of receiving legitimate prospects for departed players. My belief is if you're going to attempt and restock your minor league system, the aim has to be a bit beyond Floyd and Gonzalez.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 6, 2006 -> 11:55 PM) All I can say is this, if the Sox are going to go with that approach we should deal Buehrle this off-season and ensure we get ourselves one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball for him (and I'm sure the Mets would give up Pelfrey to get him...maybe not much else, but we'd at least be able to get Pelfrey). Maybe even Pelfrey and Burgos (or however you spell it) who they just acquired from the Royals, two guys that are young and would fit in nicely. Garcia in his walk year equalled Floyd and Gonzalez, yet Buehrle in his will equal one of the best pitching prospects in baseball? I forsee an additional problem with this philosophy which could further fuel those who share Rogers' sentiments. Unless Williams trades starters with additional years left on their contracts (Vazquez/Garland/Contreras) we're not going to receive anything of value in return. Remember, they're not going to eat a starters salary for the best available package, so our only hope if selling off a pitcher with multiple years remaning. I didn't hear Williams quote concerning a lack of desire to sign the other starters, but it's borderline retarded to basically sign off on the pitchers within your rotation beyond their contract. It's completely disrespectful. Sure, I'll be willing to let the prospects fight it out -- just as long as the prospects are legitimate prospects. Trade for Hurley/Danks or Pelfrey and I'll listen to him.

I've near read an article from Rogers with such intensity. If Williams is intent on fielding another World Series ballclub, he may have to offer more money/years to starting pitchers than Reinsdorf is comfortable with. It's foolish not to believe otherwise. And if he's truly serious about not offering contract extensions to ANY of the remaining veterans when the appropriate time arrives, trade for more than Floyd and Gonzalez for Christ sakes. Don't even bother seeking an additional bat -- we need blue chip prospects for an additional starter if this philosophy is to be upheld. A future rotation of Gonzalez/Floyd/McCarthy/McCulloch/Broadway -- if it were to ever materialize -- is enough to warrant a pink slip.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Dec 6, 2006 -> 11:16 PM) The 2nd deal is probably more likely to occur I would say. If both would happen though, we've upgraded at CF, acquired a couple of pitching spects who could go into the bullpen for a SP and a young CF who's struggled so far at the major league level. Whether that's a win I don't know, but make up your own mind on that one. Dbaho, who's the person responsible for the quotation in your signature? Wonder if they hold the same opinion now that he's a member of our team again....

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Dec 6, 2006 -> 11:02 PM) So if we end up trading Floyd and Gio for Baldelli, how do people feel if it ends up being Garcia for Baldelli? Are they happier than when this original deal went down? And what does that mean for Brian Anderson? Does he get traded to the Rangers for Nick Massett and a SP spect, or to the Marlins possibly for some of their young pitching? Possibilities a plenty. Sure, if all it takes to acquire Baldelli is Gonzalez and Floyd. Or Anderson for Massett and an additional prospect. Do you honesetly believe this would be the case? I don't know in either circumstance after today's debacle.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 6, 2006 -> 10:43 PM) Its over-reaction city here at Soxtalk. I wonder if Tampa would say take a Gavin Floyd/Gio/prospect combo. Relax people. Half the names we had seen as trade matches for Garcia were our bulls*** and conjecture anyways. They gave up this for a one year rental. Garcia is not signed for a few years. He is a one year rental. Keep remembering that. What upsets me, aside from the actual package itself, is this move appears to be a salary dump. A precursor to something within our immediate future. That may be fine for the optimistic among us, but I'm disgusted that we were willing to essentially give away Garcia during a marketplace where starting pitching is heavily valued. I don't care if it was Garcia's walk year; he'll accomplish more next season than Floyd and Gonzalez will in the next three seasons combined. If the intention all along was to trade Garcia no matter what, I'm convinced Floyd and Gonzalez would have still been available come January or February. At that point, Zito and several pitchers may have already been signed and several teams may have been willing to provide a better package than Philadelphia. We rushed into this. Williams better make up for this travesty. And quick.

QUOTE(shawnhillegas @ Dec 6, 2006 -> 10:21 PM) Im telling you, Rocco Baldelli is coming. He has to be. He just has to be. That doesn't do anything for me. Trade Garcia for crap to acquire Baldelli? Again, why exactly are we concerning ourselves with offensive production? I swear to God if Williams believes acquiring Floyd makes McCArthy expendable in a trade for Crawford I'll just about lose it. I wouldn't like to believe so, but honestly -- does it seem likely to any of you another starter will be delt? You're already looking at a potential rotation with McCarthy (or Floyd, I suppose) included. Trading another starter for anything less than a prospect immediately available to pitch doesn't make sense. I guarantee there's 15 GM's across the league thinking to themselves, "that's all it took?" We'll be seeing quotes posted on ESPN and various other websites which have major league sources saying, anonymously of course, Williams made a horrible trade. I can already envision a quote from the next Rosenthal colum: "As one AL Executive told me, he was quite shocked at return value of Garcia. 'Many executives I've talked to suggested [Garcia] as one of the best pitchers available through trade,' he said. 'For Philadelphia to acquire him for such a weak package is a poor decision by Williams.'

QUOTE(Soxman72 @ Dec 6, 2006 -> 10:06 PM) There better be something else coming...It will be interesting to see how the press deals with this trade. Will they give Kenny a pass and trust him or will they say- Whats up with this? I was thinking abou that. How does Williams explain this to the media? I believe the problem here is Kenny treated this deal like one of his patented "under the radar," "low risk/high reward" moves he so often does. Problem is, in this instance he wasn't trading Joe Borchard or Aaron Miles.

Does Bonds help our pitching staff? I wouldn't even think about discussing such a move until our starting pitching is addressed. Ideally, Williams atoning himself for such a pitiful move this evening.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 6, 2006 -> 09:57 PM) Do you think any team is going to give up the farm in order to trade for him and give him a 3/40 million extension when his fastball is 88 mph? On no planet should Floyd be starting in the AL. I understand Garcia's value wouldn't have given us much, but this is FAAARRR below what I'd expect. For all his velocity concerns, he's still durable; and you know his statistics will significantly improve upon arrival in the NL. Here's my belief -- if this disgraceful package was truly the best available, why were we so willing to pull the trigger? Would Floyd and Gonzalez have not been available in January or February as well? Atleast then, perhaps his value would increase. Not even Beck or Jphat can spin this trade. We're automatically losers. And I don't want to hear, "let's wait for another deal before commenting." No. I'm tired of these god damn trades where we're not supposed to look at it on its own, but in the context of something larger.

I don't like being right in this instance, but I'll say this -- I knew Williams would f*** up any potential deal for a starting pitcher. Santo, you can freely browse through my posts if you wish. I just KNEW that when it came down to trading someone, we'd likely force whichever team acquiring said starter to eat nearly the entire salary. I don't even know that for a fact and I'll guaran-f***ing-tee that's exactly the circumstance. We were too cheap to take on Garcia's salary, so in return, Philadelphia dramatically lessened their proposal. It's embarrassing to watch this unfold. Explain to me how ANYONE -- especially in this pitching market -- can receive only Floyd and Gonzalez for Freddy GArcia? I'll remember this package when we're attempting to acquire a starting pitcher of Garcia's calibur in his walk year, and Williams (or whomever else) overpays for them. The only way I'll redeem Williams for this move is if he absolutely rapes another team for an assortment of pitching prospects. By pitching prospects I mean Pelfrey, Danks, Hurly.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 6, 2006 -> 11:38 AM) Pen: Jenks Thornton MacDougall Turnbow Aardsma Logan Am I forgetting a reliever? Yes, Haeger; whose presence in the bullpen is essential with McCarthy in the rotation. Unless we're willing to blow out his arm, Brandon shouldn't be expected to pitch above 170 innings. Any deal with Philadelphia I'd be asking for Hamels and Castro. Even if you believe Logan is capable of fulfilling the role of LOOGY, Castro could atleast give him another year out of Charlotte.

Wait, Guillen concerning himself with OBP AND recognizing the failures of Scott Podsednik in such a capacity? It's really amazing to read such quotes. Especially in the wake of addressing Mackowiak's time in CF. Atleast now I'm somewhat convinced he's capable of evaluating players beyond intagibles such as speed, clubhouse demeanor, or which hand a player bats with. Still have to work with him and McCarthy, though.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 5, 2006 -> 10:27 PM) Just heard on CBS that the Sox have been talking to the Yankees about sending them a starting pitcher and receiving bullpen help in return. Such a scenario defies all baseball logic. Trade starting pitching for perhaps the most unreliable position in major league baseball? Who exactly would New York be willing to trade from their current bullpen? If anything, we'd be aquiring several relief pitching prospects; which is ridiculous as a centerpiece. These various scenarios which have been floating around involving Philadelphia or New York shouldn't be made unless we're obvious victors. Goal should be taking advantage of this market for a return package where by we give up the least amount of players and receive the most in return. Nowhere should "equal value" or "fair trade" be mentioned. Goal is to rape and pillage. For once, Williams shouldn't be looking to help out the other club in a trade.

Only 6800 votes? And he came in third?! lol. /voted. 2 times.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 4, 2006 -> 11:50 AM) Japan, Taiwan, they're all the same color in the end, eh Flash? /green RUH ROH. Yeah, that's a mistake on my part. Forgive-a-ness, puhlease.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 4, 2006 -> 11:48 AM) Terrible move for the White Sox. Would they throw in Hamels? They can throw in Hamels, remove Rollins, remove Rowand, add Fabio Castro, and we'll remove Anderson. Garcia for Hamels + Fabio Castro = thumbs up.