5 minutes ago, bmags said:

...that doesn't mean is wasn't one of the best.

No argument there, but it's hard to place the numbers in proper context. 

Edited May 7, 20205 yr by Jack Parkman

14 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Wilt is kinda like Wayne Gretzky in that his stats are outrageous because of the era he played in. It really can't be compared to anything afterward. 

So you're saying Gretzky would just be another player in this era? I remember people saying that with Mario Lemieux as well. Put up inflated numbers in the same era, then got cancer, came back (twice) and still put elite numbers even during the dead puck era. A transcending talent is a transcending talent.

27 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

So you're saying Gretzky would just be another player in this era? I remember people saying that with Mario Lemieux as well. Put up inflated numbers in the same era, then got cancer, came back (twice) and still put elite numbers even during the dead puck era. A transcending talent is a transcending talent.

No, he'd still be one of the best, if not the best player but he wouldn't be putting up 80+ goals and 120+ assists, just like Chamberlain wouldn't average 40-50 points in a season like he did early in his career. 

Chamberlain's first 6 seasons are an outlier compared to the rest of his career, where things come back to a more normal level. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

Edited May 7, 20205 yr by Jack Parkman

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Yeah...it's true teams don't want to give up free layups...and I didn't say they wouldn't guard shaq.

If you guys want to argue shaq is a good passer, be my guest. He'd be a great player now. When Shaq was the best player in the nba it was an exceptionally weak time of the league. If you want to talk about where are all the great big men, you had shaq going up against 33 year old dikembe mutombo and 34 year old david robinson. Fat patrick ewing, 37 year old olajuwon.

In 2000 when shaq was 1st team all nba (30-13-4), second team was dikembe mutombo (11 pts, 14 reb) and 3rd team was David Robinson with 18 and 10.

Let's check out Shaq's big obstacles that year.

Round 1: Sacramento

31 Y.O. Vlade Divac.  He'd go onto make the allstar game next year on his devastating 12-8-3 line.

Round 2: Phoenix

Luc Longley ... causing Cliff Robinson to play up and he was actually pretty good as a power forward. But Shaq was going against Longley for 20 minutes a game.

Round 3: Portland Jailblazers

35 Year Old Arvydas Sabonis...rough! Shaq had to go through the gauntlet!

Finals: Indiana Pacers

It's the finals, probably going to be a tough matchup...

Zoops it's 33 Year Old Rik Smits and Dale Davis...

In the time of bad big men (2019) we have

jokic was first team (20-10-7), Embiid 2nd team (23-12-3), Gobert 3rd team (16-13-2-2)

Ah, but then Shaq also played 40 minutes per game.

We will uncharitably give the per 36 minute stats for the trash modern big men:

Jokic (22-11-8)

Embiid (29-15-4)

Gobert (16-14)

Shaq (27-12-3) (99-00)

So in Shaq's best year he's a slightly worse Joel Embiid.

 You aren't taking him over Kareem. Taking wilt next. Pretty sure I'd take Duncan even though he's a PF next. Hakeem had less impressive scoring stats and rebounds but when he went toe to toe against the greats of his time he ended david robinson and then outplayed a very good shaq (probably the best shaq?) in the finals, sweeping them.

Since we pick and choose stats, moses malone had a better single year in his career than shaq had, in 82.

You are drafting an alltime nba team. You taking shaq in any team building exercise? That's why I don't believe this revisionism here.

Very good. Weak, terrible time in nba history. Joel Embiid is apparently better.

 

What are you arguing here?  Where have I said Shaq is the best big of all time?  Or even a good passing big?  

I've argued consistently that if you took 2000 Shaq, gave him a guy like 2016 Cavs Kyrie, and surrounded him with shooters, that team would compete for a title.  I used the 2000 assist stats to show that Shaq - under the right circumstances - was a willing passer (ie, he'd be willing to pass out of double teams to open shooters).  

For me, this is less a referendum on Shaq, and instead an argument about whether you can build a contender in 2020 around a dominant big who doesn't shoot threes.

 

41 minutes ago, illinilaw08 said:

What are you arguing here?  Where have I said Shaq is the best big of all time?  Or even a good passing big?  

I've argued consistently that if you took 2000 Shaq, gave him a guy like 2016 Cavs Kyrie, and surrounded him with shooters, that team would compete for a title.  I used the 2000 assist stats to show that Shaq - under the right circumstances - was a willing passer (ie, he'd be willing to pass out of double teams to open shooters).  

For me, this is less a referendum on Shaq, and instead an argument about whether you can build a contender in 2020 around a dominant big who doesn't shoot threes.

 

Right. 

17 hours ago, illinilaw08 said:

What are you arguing here?  Where have I said Shaq is the best big of all time?  Or even a good passing big?  

I've argued consistently that if you took 2000 Shaq, gave him a guy like 2016 Cavs Kyrie, and surrounded him with shooters, that team would compete for a title.  I used the 2000 assist stats to show that Shaq - under the right circumstances - was a willing passer (ie, he'd be willing to pass out of double teams to open shooters).  

For me, this is less a referendum on Shaq, and instead an argument about whether you can build a contender in 2020 around a dominant big who doesn't shoot threes.

 

I don't think any team would voluntarily play 2000 shaq like 2000 shaq and I don't think a kyrie-shaq team would be the finals team from either conference.

I see you KD. 

Sun Times reports ownership and Paxson want to keep Boylen but the new regime wants him out. AK has the final say, though. 
 

Sickening that it’s even being reported. 

I still think this Shaq discussion is crazy. Look at what Dwight Howard did in a modern offense surrounded by 3 point shooters. The 2008-09 magic made it to the finals. It was Dwight surrounding by great 3 point shooters. Dwight is a poor mans Shaq. If you surround Shaq with competent 3 point shooters in today's game, he absolutely feasts like he did in the late 90's early 2000's. No question about it. Shaq's talent transcends eras.

Way to go Craig.

 

Watching Last Dance reminded me of another thought on Shaq.  He ran a 2020 offense under Phil Jackson and the triangle.  That offense was all about spacing, and moving the floor to find the unbalanced and open players.  You could have easily dropped him into a 2020 spacing based offense and he would have been ready to go.  The league has become what the triangle promoted in spacing and ball movement.

[Shrugs]

 

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

[Shrugs]

 

Fat and slow.

8 hours ago, Quin said:

Fat and slow.

For those that didn't look closely, that was David Robinson that got destroyed in that clip.

11 hours ago, Quin said:

Fat and slow.

Clearly Lakers Shaq was a bum, overweight and dragged them down 

Could Draymond do enough to contain shaq to allow the superior offensive lineup to stay on the floor for a good chunk of the game? Yes.

39 minutes ago, bmags said:

Could Draymond do enough to contain shaq to allow the superior offensive lineup to stay on the floor for a good chunk of the game? Yes.

1 on 1?  Probably not.  The question would be how much help defense they would need, and where they could send help from.  As Shaq obviously could handle the triangle offense and its spacing and passing, he would also be perfectly fine with finding the open shooter if they doubled him. 

Again you just saw a clip of a much taller and bigger David Robinson who was a Defensive Player of the Year, and a 8 time member of the all-NBA defensive team in the era when defense and strength ruled, just get abused by Shaq.

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

1 on 1?  Probably not.  The question would be how much help defense they would need, and where they could send help from.  As Shaq obviously could handle the triangle offense and its spacing and passing, he would also be perfectly fine with finding the open shooter if they doubled him. 

Again you just saw a clip of a much taller and bigger David Robinson who was a Defensive Player of the Year, and a 8 time member of the all-NBA defensive team in the era when defense and strength ruled, just get abused by Shaq.

I mean david robinson getting shown up against the other big men of his era is kinda his thing.

And yeah, that's a clip. I'm sure he'd get embarrassed a few times. He'd certainly get scored on. But he just needs to slow him down enough, and the lakers would be at an overall disadvantage defensively.

 

12 minutes ago, Tony said:

Surprised there were no comments on the finale of The Last Dance. Thought the series was incredible, it was awesome to hear sports radio the next day basically re-wond back to 1998 all over again, the debates and stories. 

It was great, glad it was made. I was too young to appreciate what it meant because it started as my earliest memories. I had no perspective how crazy it was to have the hometown team be a global phenomenon. I remember being confused when in tv shows "jordan coming to town" was something they were excited for rather than dreading.

I can't believe they didn't do the Rodman mcdonalds cups though. That was so, so important to me.

I apparently saw Jordan play in old chicago stadium, and I don't remember it at all.

A happy memory for my dad. We started going to a lot of games during the rebuild (khalid el-amiiiiinnnn)and that's when I started really getting into basketball in the type of fandom I have today.

Going to games live is so important for really starting to get into sports as a kid. Can't wait until it can happen again

52 minutes ago, Tony said:

My only memory of the old stadium was going to a Hawks game with my dad, and we were in the bowels of the building (my dad knew a few of the guys on the ice maintenance crew) and we saw Will Perdue walking towards us. He was the tallest person I had ever seen in person, as like a 7 year old it was like seeing a comic book giant. 

Live events is absolutely a huge part of fandom. Just a whole different experience. 

I saw the Bulls Pre-Jordan when I was young.  I remember watching Artis Glimore specifically.  I never got to see Jordan in person.

9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I saw the Bulls Pre-Jordan when I was young.  I remember watching Artis Glimore specifically.  I never got to see Jordan in person.

Saw Jordan live three times.  Once a pre-season game against the Bucks at Chicago Stadium (1988 I think; I apparently talked about how many dunks Jordan had in the game incessantly - I was 5).  SRO to win 53 (Bucks again!) during the '95-'96 season.  And the home loss to Utah on Super Bowl Sunday in 1998 when my cousin won tickets.  

54 minutes ago, Tony said:

That's another layer of the Jordan doc, how bad of an organization the Bulls were before he got there. Talk about putting an entire franchise on his back. 

For sure.  I don't know that I can think of another player that literally changed a franchise like that since probably Babe Ruth.

1 hour ago, Tony said:

That's another layer of the Jordan doc, how bad of an organization the Bulls were before he got there. Talk about putting an entire franchise on his back. 

you mean *stifles laughter* before Jerry Reinsdorf got there