3 minutes ago, KopechThrowsHeat said:

What does everyone think about Robbie Ray?

He's a starting pitcher that maxes out at about 5 innings pitched and walks a shit ton. I would not give Dunning for him and i'm sure thatll be the ask.

Edited December 16, 20196 yr by cjgalloway

Btw, if I had to make a guess as to the most likely move going forward, it’s a trade of JA Happ and mid-tier prospect for low-level prospects 

Just now, fathom said:

Doesn’t really go with what the Sox were supposedly looking for.

With one year remaining I have a hard time thinking that he is a target of theirs. It seems like they are very picky in a market that keeps shrinking. Not a good mix

3 minutes ago, KopechThrowsHeat said:

What does everyone think about Robbie Ray?

He has 1 year left and is probably not great in the AL.  He doesn't make much sense.

9 minutes ago, fathom said:

Just seems the organization is so scared of making a risky move.  Hahn probably also loves being able to push things back a year, as it gives him more job security.

We have four starters right now (with one coming back from TJ and another who may not be good enough to stay in the rotation) along with one Dylan Covey.  To not sign a good starter when there were various options available this offseason and the Sox having money to spend is ludicrous.  It would be an admission that they aren’t even really trying to win.

Edited December 16, 20196 yr by Moan4Yoan

Yeah, my issue is that they cant wait on everyone. Grandal wasnt enough.

Even if Jimmy Lambert is the next Corey kluber!

1 minute ago, fathom said:

Btw, if I had to make a guess as to the most likely move going forward, it’s a trade of JA Happ and mid-tier prospect for low-level prospects 

His vesting option is like 25 starts this year. That would be really shit.

2 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

His vesting option is like 25 starts this year. That would be really shit.

I don’t disagree

5 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Kopech has 14 MLB innings to his name and has not earned a starting rotation spot in any sense. Kopech absolutely should be sent to AAA for at least a month to build up his arm and face hitters. 

Sox absolutely are going to get the lost year of service time back, but there's zero argument against having him be in AAA for 1-2 months. 

But I assume you think that Cease has earned a rotation spot.  He only has 73 MLB innings and they weren't particularly great ones.

Pick one:  He hasn't earned a rotation spot or he needs to build up arm strength and face hitters.  Those are two separate things.

If you don't think he's earned a spot, I would argue neither has Cease.  But I don't think anyone is assuming he won't be in the opening day rotation.  If you think he needs to build up arm strength, that's exactly what spring training is for.  No reason that he can't be on the same strengthening program as all the other starters beginning in February through the end of spring training.

1 minute ago, Perfect Vision said:

But I assume you think that Cease has earned a rotation spot.  He only has 73 MLB innings and they weren't particularly great ones.

Pick one:  He hasn't earned a rotation spot or he needs to build up arm strength and face hitters.  Those are two separate things.

If you don't think he's earned a spot, I would argue neither has Cease.  But I don't think anyone is assuming he won't be in the opening day rotation.  If you think he needs to build up arm strength, that's exactly what spring training is for.  No reason that he can't be on the same strengthening program as all the other starters beginning in February through the end of spring training.

Cease and Kopech are completely different situations.

Kopech should start in AAA and this isn't even a question.

1 minute ago, Perfect Vision said:

But I assume you think that Cease has earned a rotation spot.  He only has 73 MLB innings and they weren't particularly great ones.

Pick one:  He hasn't earned a rotation spot or he needs to build up arm strength and face hitters.  Those are two separate things.

If you don't think he's earned a spot, I would argue neither has Cease.  But I don't think anyone is assuming he won't be in the opening day rotation.  If you think he needs to build up arm strength, that's exactly what spring training is for.  No reason that he can't be on the same strengthening program as all the other starters beginning in February through the end of spring training.

Cease has faced hitters in 2019, Kopech has not. 

Sure, they will see how Kopech does in spring training, but he is still ticketed to start in AAA, where he will not be asked to immediately be throwing 5+ innings as a starter. 

You cannot pencil in a guy coming back from TJS surgery for anything until you see how it goes with him on the mound for awhile. 

3 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said:

But I assume you think that Cease has earned a rotation spot.  He only has 73 MLB innings and they weren't particularly great ones.

Pick one:  He hasn't earned a rotation spot or he needs to build up arm strength and face hitters.  Those are two separate things.

If you don't think he's earned a spot, I would argue neither has Cease.  But I don't think anyone is assuming he won't be in the opening day rotation.  If you think he needs to build up arm strength, that's exactly what spring training is for.  No reason that he can't be on the same strengthening program as all the other starters beginning in February through the end of spring training.

It's not only about needing to build arm strength...it's more about being on an innings limit next year.  If he starts the year in the rotation, then he will be shut down at some point. And if he's going to be shut down anyway, you might as well "shut him down" in the beginning of the year when he can pitch a couple innings at a time in AAA.

3 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Cease and Kopech are completely different situations.

Kopech should start in AAA and this isn't even a question.

It is a question.

3 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Cease has faced hitters in 2019, Kopech has not. 

Sure, they will see how Kopech does in spring training, but he is still ticketed to start in AAA, where he will not be asked to immediately be throwing 5+ innings as a starter. 

You cannot pencil in a guy coming back from TJS surgery for anything until you see how it goes with him on the mound for awhile. 

Not a single starter will enter spring training ready to throw 5+ innings.  They all build up arm strength over those 6 weeks.  I agree they need to see how it goes.  But if/when he outperforms Covey or whoever, he should be in the opening day rotation.

2 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

It's not only about needing to build arm strength...it's more about being on an innings limit next year.  If he starts the year in the rotation, then he will be shut down at some point. And if he's going to be shut down anyway, you might as well "shut him down" in the beginning of the year when he can pitch a couple innings at a time in AAA.

This at least makes sense.  But, why not have Kopech pitch in April - July, and then be replaced by Rodon when he is ready?

Just now, Perfect Vision said:

Not a single starter will enter spring training ready to throw 5+ innings.  They all build up arm strength over those 6 weeks.  I agree they need to see how it goes.  But if/when he outperforms Covey or whoever, he should be in the opening day rotation.

Sox are certainly going to acquire two more starting pitchers prior to spring training, even if only for depth purposes. 

Covey and Fulmer will not be a part of the rotation, if they are then the offseason was an utter disaster. 

5 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said:

This at least makes sense.  But, why not have Kopech pitch in April - July, and then be replaced by Rodon when he is ready?

1. Kopech also had a 2018 worth noting - he struggled badly with his control for the first 2+ months of the season. One game I believe he walked 7 in 5 innings or something like that. It wasn't until around mid-June when suddenly everything snapped together for him and he spent a month destroying AAA before his callup. He was like that in 2017 also - struggled with his control at AA to start the year. It is entirely plausible that he struggles more in the early part of the season than we want.

2. Hard to count on Rodon for anything of value at this point IMO, but if and when Rodon comes back he also could be useful keeping everyone fresh. Also a nonzero chance he comes back late or gets put in the bullpen. Who knows at this point. I certainly wouldn't count on him for much.

1 minute ago, Perfect Vision said:

It is a question.

It's not.  When he was pitching in the Fall League his command was bad.  You aren't going to just regain that over night when you haven't pitched in a year and a half.  Even if he destroys ST, which is not full MLB lineups anyways, AAA will give him much more flexibility to refine his mechanics and build his arm up. Also innings limit

Even if none of those things were a factor and he is super human, we get a year of control back if we keep him down there a month.

There is nothing physically wrong with Cease and he isn't coming back from TJ.  They aren't comparable.

5 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Sox are certainly going to acquire two more starting pitchers prior to spring training, even if only for depth purposes. 

Covey and Fulmer will not be a part of the rotation, if they are then the offseason was an utter disaster. 

Two “depth purposes” starters isn’t good enough.

4 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Two “depth purposes” starters isn’t good enough.

You're telling me Gio Gonzalez and Felix Hernandez aren't marquee options anymore? ?

I have learned to never count on Carlos Rodon.

Maybe Giolitto has spent the offseason learning to be ambidextrous and will hold down 2 of the 5 spots. One day he is a LHP, the other a RHP. Better option than Covey.

Seriously we should take a flyer on a fizzled prospect who was just in a bad situation. Jeff Hoffman for instance. Was going to be the #1 pick until TJ surgery at end of Jr year in college. Comes back and goes fairly quick through the minors and gets traded to the Rockies. Awful for any pitcher. He is up and down so many times he needs a change. He would be up 2 or so starts, then sent down, then in the bullpen, then back down. I know he was not happy the way he was handled and would love to get out of there. He would cost next to nothing. He can hit 98, has some control issues but the raw talent is there, just needs to learn how to pitch. Could be an Arrietta type.

6 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

It's not.  When he was pitching in the Fall League his command was bad.  You aren't going to just regain that over night when you haven't pitched in a year and a half.  Even if he destroys ST, which is not full MLB lineups anyways, AAA will give him much more flexibility to refine his mechanics and build his arm up. Also innings limit

Even if none of those things were a factor and he is super human, we get a year of control back if we keep him down there a month.

There is nothing physically wrong with Cease and he isn't coming back from TJ.  They aren't comparable.

We're not talking about regaining anything over night.  He's probably working on it now, and has all of spring training.  You're concerned about him not facing MLB lineups in spring training, but going to AAA is going to solve that.  Huh?  Then you mention the extra year of control, which is really what people want and is why they want him back in AAA.

According to Hahn, today, there is nothing physically wrong with Kopech.

10 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Two “depth purposes” starters isn’t good enough.

Not saying it is. 

We could do worse than a player like Gonzalez as our fifth starter though. He should not cost too much and could be had on a one year deal. Far from sexy, but could be a reasonable bounce back to a 2+ WAR season kind of guy. 

I have higher hopes, but getting better is getting better.

Edited December 16, 20196 yr by steveno89

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

1. Kopech also had a 2018 worth noting - he struggled badly with his control for the first 2+ months of the season. One game I believe he walked 7 in 5 innings or something like that. It wasn't until around mid-June when suddenly everything snapped together for him and he spent a month destroying AAA before his callup. He was like that in 2017 also - struggled with his control at AA to start the year. It is entirely plausible that he struggles more in the early part of the season than we want.

2. Hard to count on Rodon for anything of value at this point IMO, but if and when Rodon comes back he also could be useful keeping everyone fresh. Also a nonzero chance he comes back late or gets put in the bullpen. Who knows at this point. I certainly wouldn't count on him for much.

If Kopech struggles with his command in spring training, then yes, he should go to AAA.  If he looks sharp, though, he should be in the rotation.  Many seem to be advocating for AAA no matter how he looks.

Just now, Perfect Vision said:

If Kopech struggles with his command in spring training, then yes, he should go to AAA.  If he looks sharp, though, he should be in the rotation.  Many seem to be advocating for AAA no matter how he looks.

You get the lost season of control back for a player like Kopech. There's no reason to rush him back and toss him into a MLB rotation in early April. 

There's a strong chance you do not like what you see from him this spring anyway, and he will need that minor league time to work his way back.