November 14, 20205 yr 4 minutes ago, The Hawk said: Do we know if Giolitto went to him for coaching while the guy was being paid by another organization? This just seems strange to me. When the story was originally reported, it was basically that Giolitto went back to his high school pitching coach to help work on his delivery and he changed his delivery pretty drastically and it worked. I and others didn't know that the guy Katz that he went to for help was a professional pitching coach with another organization. That's pretty strange to me. He would have been a minor league pitching coach at that point. So yes.
November 14, 20205 yr That was 2 offseasons ago. Don't think Katz was with the Giants yet. I may be mistaken on this but I thought it was before SF.
November 14, 20205 yr 3 minutes ago, smellysox said: That was 2 offseasons ago. Don't think Katz was with the Giants yet. I may be mistaken on this but I thought it was before SF. It was before he was a major league asst coach but he was coaching in the minors before that.
November 14, 20205 yr 4 minutes ago, bmags said: He would have been a minor league pitching coach at that point. So yes. That amazes me if true. All baseball organizations hire coaches to work with their own players. They pay them decent money to do that. I just find it really strange that the Giants or any other major league team would be cool with their own guy working with another organization's players. Think of this aspect of it. What if Giolitto hurt his arm while being advised by Katz. Yeah, the odds of that occurring are out of sight but its happened before. I was a pitching coach who helped develop a lot of high school, college, and professional pitchers. But once an organization signs a kid to a scholarship or a professional contract, that organization pretty much always has a hands off policy on that kid for his development. That's what I am saying. The situation with Giolitto and Katz is very unusual to me.
November 14, 20205 yr 8 minutes ago, The Hawk said: That amazes me if true. All baseball organizations hire coaches to work with their own players. They pay them decent money to do that. I just find it really strange that the Giants or any other major league team would be cool with their own guy working with another organization's players. Think of this aspect of it. What if Giolitto hurt his arm while being advised by Katz. Yeah, the odds of that occurring are out of sight but its happened before. I was a pitching coach who helped develop a lot of high school, college, and professional pitchers. But once an organization signs a kid to a scholarship or a professional contract, that organization pretty much always has a hands off policy on that kid for his development. That's what I am saying. The situation with Giolitto and Katz is very unusual to me. No different than a coach going to Mexican league/DOminican league in offseason to me.
November 14, 20205 yr https://theathletic.com/2194535/2020/11/12/white-sox-to-hire-lucas-giolitos-mentor-ethan-katz-as-their-pitching-coach/ excellent stuff in here: He just has that really good natural eye for seeing where a pitcher is athletically, seeing where their mechanics are,” Giolito told me in March. “He’s not there for a paycheck, he’s not there for a job. He’s there because he genuinely wants to see his players get better. You can tell because he worked us so hard and he gave us very, very specific (training). I wasn’t doing the same drills that Max Fried was doing. I wasn’t doing the same drills that he had (Jack) Flaherty doing or other guys on the pitching staff. It was all tailored to, ‘What does this guy need to work on?’ He was very diligent in his work. He charted everything, which I think he still does that. Everything was written down. Everything had a purpose. Everything had a goal.”
November 14, 20205 yr 20 minutes ago, The Hawk said: That amazes me if true. All baseball organizations hire coaches to work with their own players. They pay them decent money to do that. I just find it really strange that the Giants or any other major league team would be cool with their own guy working with another organization's players. Think of this aspect of it. What if Giolitto hurt his arm while being advised by Katz. Yeah, the odds of that occurring are out of sight but its happened before. I was a pitching coach who helped develop a lot of high school, college, and professional pitchers. But once an organization signs a kid to a scholarship or a professional contract, that organization pretty much always has a hands off policy on that kid for his development. That's what I am saying. The situation with Giolitto and Katz is very unusual to me. Come gather 'round, people Wherever you roam And admit that the waters Around you have grown And accept it that soon You'll be drenched to the bone If your time to you is worth savin' And you better start swimmin' Or you'll sink like a stone For the times they are a-changin'
November 14, 20205 yr 14 minutes ago, bmags said: https://theathletic.com/2194535/2020/11/12/white-sox-to-hire-lucas-giolitos-mentor-ethan-katz-as-their-pitching-coach/ excellent stuff in here: He just has that really good natural eye for seeing where a pitcher is athletically, seeing where their mechanics are,” Giolito told me in March. “He’s not there for a paycheck, he’s not there for a job. He’s there because he genuinely wants to see his players get better. You can tell because he worked us so hard and he gave us very, very specific (training). I wasn’t doing the same drills that Max Fried was doing. I wasn’t doing the same drills that he had (Jack) Flaherty doing or other guys on the pitching staff. It was all tailored to, ‘What does this guy need to work on?’ He was very diligent in his work. He charted everything, which I think he still does that. Everything was written down. Everything had a purpose. Everything had a goal.” This is encouraging to read. I hope he is fast at work on his Cease plan.
November 14, 20205 yr 39 minutes ago, SouthWallace said: This is encouraging to read. I hope he is fast at work on his Cease plan. Out of all our guys who have the potential to be a TOR starter ASAP Cease is #1 and surprisingly Lopez is 2nd . Kopech, Dunning and Crochet all need a lot more innings.
November 14, 20205 yr 3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Out of all our guys who have the potential to be a TOR starter ASAP Cease is #1 and surprisingly Lopez is 2nd . Kopech, Dunning and Crochet all need a lot more innings. Babyface??? Really???
November 14, 20205 yr 3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Out of all our guys who have the potential to be a TOR starter ASAP Cease is #1 and surprisingly Lopez is 2nd . Kopech, Dunning and Crochet all need a lot more innings. And on that note, if those 2 can turn it around- suddenly we become deep in pitching.
November 14, 20205 yr 13 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Out of all our guys who have the potential to be a TOR starter ASAP Cease is #1 and surprisingly Lopez is 2nd . Kopech, Dunning and Crochet all need a lot more innings. I don’t even think you worry about Lopez becoming a starter at this point, see if you can get his fastball working again and turn him into a back-end reliever.
November 14, 20205 yr 6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I don’t even think you worry about Lopez becoming a starter at this point, see if you can get his fastball working again and turn him into a back-end reliever. I don't rule anything out. I just was saying that the 2 most likely guys to be successful as starters in the near future are Cease and Lopez based on the fact that they have the most innings and if successful can contribute more than the others who need a ton more innings before they can give you a full regular season worth of starts. Of course if you are pitching 2 straight seasons of shortened schedules a lot of pitchers will be having difficulty once you get back to a full season. Having a lot of high quality BP arms becomes increasingly important in Covid years and the years following it.
November 14, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, hi8is said: That's who I thought. I was just making sure. I did address why I think that just before this.
November 14, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: That's who I thought. I was just making sure. I did address why I think that just before this. Yea... I have about one thread of hope left for him and fully support yours. Kudos.
November 15, 20205 yr If Giolito doesn’t go back with Katz and sticks with Coop, is he still hot garbage? I am guessing yes, and I am guessing Lopez and Cease not moving forward finally convinced the Sox Coop’s time had passed. I do like that Katz had his 3 HS studs working on different things. He isn’t a one size fits all guy. It still remains to be seen if he is capable of being a MLB pitching coach, but the leap had to be made.
November 15, 20205 yr 23 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If Giolito doesn’t go back with Katz and sticks with Coop, is he still hot garbage? I am guessing yes, and I am guessing Lopez and Cease not moving forward finally convinced the Sox Coop’s time had passed. I do like that Katz had his 3 HS studs working on different things. He isn’t a one size fits all guy. It still remains to be seen if he is capable of being a MLB pitching coach, but the leap had to be made. I think the comment about Katz approaching each pitcher differently is going to be huge. Not saying Cooper was one dimensional, but the Sox seemed more likely to tweak or change a pitcher under his philosophy (i.e. everyone throw a cutter, stop throwing 100 mph). Seems like Katz will be more likely to take what a guy does and figure out a way to make him more successful. Hope he can get Cease or Lopez (if he’s around) to take that next step.
November 15, 20205 yr I wonder if the Cooper firing was a long time coming (relatively speaking) or if the struggles of Cease & Lopez are what drove the change. Edited November 15, 20205 yr by Chicago White Sox
November 15, 20205 yr 22 hours ago, The Hawk said: That amazes me if true. All baseball organizations hire coaches to work with their own players. They pay them decent money to do that. I just find it really strange that the Giants or any other major league team would be cool with their own guy working with another organization's players. Think of this aspect of it. What if Giolitto hurt his arm while being advised by Katz. Yeah, the odds of that occurring are out of sight but its happened before. I was a pitching coach who helped develop a lot of high school, college, and professional pitchers. But once an organization signs a kid to a scholarship or a professional contract, that organization pretty much always has a hands off policy on that kid for his development. That's what I am saying. The situation with Giolitto and Katz is very unusual to me. You cant tell a coach who he can and can't help during the off season. They don't control his right to teach.
November 15, 20205 yr 35 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If Giolito doesn’t go back with Katz and sticks with Coop, is he still hot garbage? I am guessing yes, and I am guessing Lopez and Cease not moving forward finally convinced the Sox Coop’s time had passed. I do like that Katz had his 3 HS studs working on different things. He isn’t a one size fits all guy. It still remains to be seen if he is capable of being a MLB pitching coach, but the leap had to be made. It is absolutely a high school, but it's not high school baseball as most understand it or remember it. Id be surprised if these schools - who pump out big league and D1 talent - didn't have developmental coaches that focus on individual skills over group teachings at every level. Katz is obviously good at what he does, but his approach to pitcher teachings is pretty wide spread at that level of amateur ball. Excited to see him get to work. And I know you're bashing Cooper, and he didn't make the initial suggestion, but he was willing to listen to giolito and he obviously adjusted and accepted the change and worked with it during seasons which absolutely still matters.
November 15, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: If Giolito doesn’t go back with Katz and sticks with Coop, is he still hot garbage? I am guessing yes, and I am guessing Lopez and Cease not moving forward finally convinced the Sox Coop’s time had passed. I do like that Katz had his 3 HS studs working on different things. He isn’t a one size fits all guy. It still remains to be seen if he is capable of being a MLB pitching coach, but the leap had to be made. I think this is the right main point but I would stress that it’s Giolito that deserves most of the credit. Katz went all in on helping him but it was Giolito who knew what changes to make
November 15, 20205 yr 21 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Out of all our guys who have the potential to be a TOR starter ASAP Cease is #1 and surprisingly Lopez is 2nd . Kopech, Dunning and Crochet all need a lot more innings. Yeah, I don't agree with this. I don't know of many TOR SPs that have shitty BB/9IP >5. I dont know of many TOR SPs with BB/9IP even at or above 4. I dont know of many TOR SPs with HR/9IP that are in the same zip code as those that Cease and Lopez have had. Why do posters fall all over themselves to excuse Cease's incompetence? (Posters have rightly criticized Lopez, but why is Cease Teflon on this?) Now, if you'd posted, "Cease and Lopez have the best potential to be COMPETENT SPs," you could have a valid argument. But any pipedreams of those two becoming TOR SPs left with their inabilities to avoid BBs and HRs, IMO.
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