The Offense - Near Term Actions

[Bob Sacamano]

6 minutes ago, raBBit said:

A lot of good stuff here. It's pretty simple and a bit disappointing there hasn't been swifter action. 

1 - Probably time to option Mercedes.

2 - Lamb plays everyday against RHP. Whether it be DH or RF.

3 - Collins plays against RHP. The frequency of his starts against LHP is setting Collins and the team up for failure.

4 - Grandal and Collins need to play together against RHP. 

Also Engel has limited track record against RHP but we have to see how he handles himself. Not sure what type of rest schedule they are planning for him but for me he should be in CF for every LHP and half of the RHP.

 

The lineups vs RHP and LHP that you posted last week were perfect to me.

[tray]

13 hours ago, hankchifan said:

Sounds like a good plan.  Sox have been primarily a ground ball hitting team so hit and runs makes sense with the right players. Are you factoring Billy Hamilton in any scenario?  Burger?

I probably should have factored in Burger and Hamilton but my post was sort of a stream of consciousness and disappointment following the Houston sweep. I like the thoughts by others and hope Hahn and LaRussa make some of these changes. A course correction is in order.

.

 

[JoeCredeYes]

On 6/20/2021 at 11:57 AM, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. Agreed. This should have happened already. Take TLR's automatic #5 hitter away from him.

2. Agreed.  If Collins has any value offensively, here's how he can show it. 

3. Agreed. I've probably been these boards biggest critic of Burger, given his lack of care and lack of effort in terms of taking care of his body. But, credit to him for learning the value of vegetables, and the need for cardio.

But to me, the true litmus test for Charlotte players is how they hit on the road.

Unlike, say Beckham, who's padded his stats at home, while sucking out loud on the road, Burger's been good on the road. Call him up.

4. I can't disagree more. LF is an almost-entirely offensive spot. This lineup sucls out loud vs. RHP. While its good that Vaughn can cromulently stand at LF, he's hurting this lineup, hes burning through his controllable years, and he's not developing right now, while putting up a 40ish WRC+ vs RHP.

For THIS YEAR'S team, for the betterment of FUTURE white sox  teams, for Vaughns future/development, and for general principle, ya GOTTA send Vaughn down, like NOW.

Not the first time you've said this...explain to me how a 23 year old guy with 55 MILB games under his belt that is currently mashing LHP, in the process of learning 2 new positions and being exposed to/learning the best pitchers on the planet, and more importantly those in the League he will eventually and currently compete against on a daily basis has the ability to turn off his development switch.  Like wtf does that even mean?  You should say what you really mean, he hasn't shown incremental month over month growth against RHP that you find to be satisfactory enough to demand a lineup slot on a team that currently sends Yermin Mercedes to the dish in the 5 hole on a nightly basis.  Get over it, Andrew stays. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

11 minutes ago, JoeCredeYes said:

Not the first time you've said this...explain to me how a 23 year old guy with 55 MILB games under his belt that is currently mashing LHP,

His numbers vs LHP just might be artificial as well. His BaBIP is .421 vs LHP,  which seems high. Vs. RHP, he's OPSing a measly .476.

And overall, his WRC+ has dropped from 110 in March/April to 80 this month, or a 27% drop.

As you state, he's been asked to do the impossible, in jumping up 3 levels, while learning a new position. It wouldn't be outlandish for him to temporarily move to a level that is more in line with his level of experience.

Then, once he's figured out how to adjust to RHP, bring him back up.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 hours ago, raBBit said:

A lot of good stuff here. It's pretty simple and a bit disappointing there hasn't been swifter action. 

1 - Probably time to option Mercedes.

2 - Lamb plays everyday against RHP. Whether it be DH or RF.

3 - Collins plays against RHP. The frequency of his starts against LHP is setting Collins and the team up for failure.

4 - Grandal and Collins need to play together against RHP. 

Also Engel has limited track record against RHP but we have to see how he handles himself. Not sure what type of rest schedule they are planning for him but for me he should be in CF for every LHP and half of the RHP.

 

Wow we actually agree. The only difference is you said all that without mentioning Vaughn once and I always do to take the brunt of criticism.

Also I remember early in the season before Engel got hurt and suggesting Engel get more AB's against RHP due to his year over year improvements in the last 3 years culminating with marked improvement in 2020. I think it was a conversation with @Chicago White Sox and you both thought it was BABIP luck. Nice to see you at least saying he deserved a shot before he got injured again.

[Springfield Soxfan]

Beckham for Mendick immediately please. 

[Chicago White Sox]

10 hours ago, raBBit said:

A lot of good stuff here. It's pretty simple and a bit disappointing there hasn't been swifter action. 

1 - Probably time to option Mercedes.

2 - Lamb plays everyday against RHP. Whether it be DH or RF.

3 - Collins plays against RHP. The frequency of his starts against LHP is setting Collins and the team up for failure.

4 - Grandal and Collins need to play together against RHP. 

Also Engel has limited track record against RHP but we have to see how he handles himself. Not sure what type of rest schedule they are planning for him but for me he should be in CF for every LHP and half of the RHP.

 

Agree with all of this.  It’s too bad that Engel got hurt though, because now there isn’t really any solve for CF.

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Wow we actually agree. The only difference is you said all that without mentioning Vaughn once and I always do to take the brunt of criticism.

Also I remember early in the season before Engel got hurt and suggesting Engel get more AB's against RHP due to his year over year improvements in the last 3 years culminating with marked improvement in 2020. I think it was a conversation with @Chicago White Sox and you both thought it was BABIP luck. Nice to see you at least saying he deserved a shot before he got injured again.

Engel’s 2020 results against RHP in 2020 was definitely fueled by BABIP luck, but at this point it would be worth giving him more time against righties simply due to a lack of quality options.  Unfortunately that’s now moot and we’re back to a Goodwin / Leury clusterfuck.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Engel’s 2020 results against RHP in 2020 was definitely fueled by BABIP luck, but at this point it would be worth giving him more time against righties simply due to a lack of quality options.  Unfortunately that’s now moot and we’re back to a Goodwin / Leury clusterfuck.

Eh with shifts and sticky stuff BABIP is over rated.Hit em where they ain't is still the name of the game. But still if you barrel it up and K less you will find holes more often than those who K more and don't hit it hard. I don't know if the shifts on Engel are so radical that he finds more holes because he hits them all over the field with authority. But yea MOOOOOT until/if he returns.

[Chicago White Sox]

Here’s my proposed lineups until we can acquire some help or call up Burger / Sheets.  All these stats are based on 2021 unless indicated by a “x” which is then career figures.

Versus Lefties (wRC+ | OBP | ISO):

1. Anderson, SS (82 | .309 | .077)
2. Grandal, C# (165 | .491 | .167)
3. Moncada, 3B# (113 | .377 | .075)
4. Abreu, 1B (134 | .296 | .338)
5. Vaughn, LF (216 | .446 | .387)
6. Mercedes, DH (148 | .382 | .190)
7. Garcia, RF# (64 | .277 | .066)
8. Goodwin, CF* (101x | .312x | .213x)
9. Mendick, 2B (50 | .250 | .071)

Versus Righties (wRC+ | OBP | ISO):

1. Anderson, SS (121 | .346 | .143)
2. Lamb, RF* (123 | .338 | .235)
3. Moncada, 3B# (138 | .410 | .146)
4. Abreu, 1B (105 | .330 | .153)
5. Grandal, C# (108 | .344 | .226)
6. Collins, DH* (112 | .358 | .136)
7. Goodwin, CF* (102x | .320x | .205x)
8. Mendick, 2B (107 | .362 | .128)
9. Vaughn, LF (35 | .234 | .065)

[raBBit]

12 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Wow we actually agree. The only difference is you said all that without mentioning Vaughn once and I always do to take the brunt of criticism.

 Also I remember early in the season before Engel got hurt and suggesting Engel get more AB's against RHP due to his year over year improvements in the last 3 years culminating with marked improvement in 2020. I think it was a conversation with @Chicago White Sox and you both thought it was BABIP luck. Nice to see you at least saying he deserved a shot before he got injured again.

Engel had an unsustainably high BABIP against RHP in 2020. It was a tiny sample. There was no reason to believe Engel can hit RHP in the MLB coming into this season because he never has before. It does really seem he's honing in on his power potential and he's really a special athlete in terms of speed/strength.

I thought Engel should be getting more at bats given the power he's shown, the defense he provides and the fact that he was the only outfielder on the active roster that was supposed to make the Opening Day roster as an outfielder. Things change when you lose your starting outfield and the alternative is Leury/Goodwin. His power was very encouraging though. Hope we get him back healthy soon.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

14 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Engel’s 2020 results against RHP in 2020 was definitely fueled by BABIP luck, but at this point it would be worth giving him more time against righties simply due to a lack of quality options.  Unfortunately that’s now moot and we’re back to a Goodwin / Leury clusterfuck.

I guess I have a curious mind and always wonder if you just look at the BABIP stat , see how high it is and that's it ? Do you look at his LD% against RHP , Barrel rate, in zone hitting , outside zone swinging ,spray charts and other relevant stats to see if there could be any other explanation besides BABIP ? Using CF more, swinging at less pitches outside the zone, K % hitting pitches in the zone better/harder ?

 I mean sure, just looking at BABIP alone and seeing .378 with a .291 BA vs RHP tells you something. I guess that's too wide of a gap .

But I specifically looked for something that might indicate a maturation as a hitter so I looked at how he did in hitters counts . After all that's where most good hitters fatten up their stats. I saw vast improvement from Engel between 2019 and 2020. Now I couldn't find a split for favorable counts unfortunately so this will also include how he did overall not just against RHP. Maybe this is too rudimentary. After all you would expect that when his stats go up and his BABIP goes up  his stats in hitters counts will go up too.

Just citing BABIP seems lazy to me unless you did a thorough investigation and could find no other improvements.

 

[southsider2k5]

Well at least he minimized the damage to the error.

[Chicago White Sox]

Burger is now up to a .920 OPS, which ranks 15th in the AAA East league.  For those into advanced metrics he’s put up a 136 wRC+ and that’s not driven by Truist Field as his road splits are actually more favorable.  He played 2B again last night and Jim Margalus was at the game and is expected to publish a report today on how that went.  

It’s time to call him up and send down Yermin.  At bare minimum I think he gives you more than you’re currently getting from Mercedes while providing some positional flexibility.  Best case scenario he provides a much needed spark to the lineup.  Either way, the time for action is now.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Burger is now up to a .920 OPS, which ranks 15th in the AAA East league.  For those into advanced metrics he’s put up a 136 wRC+ and that’s not driven by Truist Field as his road splits are actually more favorable.  He played 2B again last night and Jim Margalus was at the game and is expected to publish a report today on how that went.  

It’s time to call him up and send down Yermin.  At bare minimum I think he gives you more than you’re currently getting from Mercedes while providing some positional flexibility.  Best case scenario he provides a much needed spark to the lineup.  Either way, the time for action is now.

I like the fact he can play 3B, as Leury is the only other backup Tony trusts (doesn’t trust Lamb), and maybe can handle 2B. 

Give him reps through the weekend and it goes well both physically and performance wise, bring him up next week. You can always rotate players through the DH role based on matchups, rest factors, including Burger, if he can handle 2B.

Worth a shot for at least a few weeks, will allow Leury some days off as well so he can mend. Tony needs to play Burger here regularly so he needs to come to agreement with Hahn on that front.

[Two-Gun Pete]

29 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Burger is now up to a .920 OPS, which ranks 15th in the AAA East league.  For those into advanced metrics he’s put up a 136 wRC+ and that’s not driven by Truist Field as his road splits are actually more favorable.  He played 2B again last night and Jim Margalus was at the game and is expected to publish a report today on how that went.  

It’s time to call him up and send down Yermin.  At bare minimum I think he gives you more than you’re currently getting from Mercedes while providing some positional flexibility.  Best case scenario he provides a much needed spark to the lineup.  Either way, the time for action is now.

Unless you think that Yermin's pinch hit the other day in shittsburgh is a sign that he's coming put of his slump, I agree.

We should also acknowledge that Burger is pretty much all the potential "help" that's available from Charlotte. The rest of them, to include Sheets, have artificial numbers that are inflated by Truist. Go ahead and look at whats available.

 

The other elephant in the room, Vaughn, has continued circling the drain since this thread started. Both his overall numbers and his splits look shittier in just a mere few days.

I think his WRC+ in June is down into the 60s, while vs. RHP, his WRC+ is into the LOW 30s. For him, the saving grace is that there's literally NO ONE currently in the org who could both stand at LF cromulently and hit better than Vaughn at the MLB level.

So for him, either he pulls his head out of his rectum, or once one of Hamilton/Eaton/Engel are back, he can go down to Charlotte. There, he can hopefully bother to watch video and learn how to NOT swing at every crappy slider down and away. Oh, and learn how to communicate with the fielders around him, so he doesn't collide with the CFer or IFers. 

[SCCWS]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Unless you think that Yermin's pinch hit the other day in shittsburgh is a sign that he's coming put of his slump, I agree.

We should also acknowledge that Burger is pretty much all the potential "help" that's available from Charlotte. The rest of them, to include Sheets, have artificial numbers that are inflated by Truist. Go ahead and look at whats available.

 

The other elephant in the room, Vaughn, has continued circling the drain since this thread started. Both his overall numbers and his splits look shittier in just a mere few days.

I think his WRC+ in June is down into the 60s, while vs. RHP, his WRC+ is into the LOW 30s. For him, the saving grace is that there's literally NO ONE currently in the org who could both stand at LF cromulently and hit better than Vaughn at the MLB level.

So for him, either he pulls his head out of his rectum, or once one of Hamilton/Eaton/Engel are back, he can go down to Charlotte. There, he can hopefully bother to watch video and learn how to NOT swing at every crappy slider down and away. Oh, and learn how to communicate with the fielders around him, so he doesn't collide with the CFer or IFers. 

In fairness some of that is poor communication but it is also lack of experience. Even with communication, colliding w walls is a different issue.  We have seen collisions where multiple players call for a ball and end up colliding as well. 

[southsider2k5]

32 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

In fairness some of that is poor communication but it is also lack of experience. Even with communication, colliding w walls is a different issue.  We have seen collisions where multiple players call for a ball and end up colliding as well. 

We have played 9 different starting OFs this year.  I can only imagine the number of combinations of OFs we have started, and then multiply it by all of the different IFs they have played with too.

Again for the record, the OF we started in the finale in Pittsburgh was our 7th, 8th, and 9th OFs on the pre-season depth chart, two of which weren't even on the roster in the pre-season.

[SCCWS]

44 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

We have played 9 different starting OFs this year.  I can only imagine the number of combinations of OFs we have started, and then multiply it by all of the different IFs they have played with too.

Again for the record, the OF we started in the finale in Pittsburgh was our 7th, 8th, and 9th OFs on the pre-season depth chart, two of which weren't even on the roster in the pre-season.

I agree with you but I think you missed the poster's point. He is saying Vaughn is having the communication issues.  I think his lack of experience playing the outfield is more the problem than the number of different CF.  Moncada and Anderson are usually the INF when Vaughn is in LF. . 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

I agree with you but I think you missed the poster's point. He is saying Vaughn is having the communication issues.  I think his lack of experience playing the outfield is more the problem than the number of different CF.  Moncada and Anderson are usually the INF when Vaughn is in LF. . 

Sure, and every time you give a kid who has never played the OF yet another person to work with in these combinations, it involves new calculus.  Playing with Luis Robert is different than Leury Garcia, which is different than BIlly Hamilton, which is different than Goodwin, etc.

[raBBit]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:38 PM, Two-Gun Pete said:

His numbers vs LHP just might be artificial as well. His BaBIP is .421 vs LHP,  which seems high. Vs. RHP, he's OPSing a measly .476.

And overall, his WRC+ has dropped from 110 in March/April to 80 this month, or a 27% drop.

As you state, he's been asked to do the impossible, in jumping up 3 levels, while learning a new position. It wouldn't be outlandish for him to temporarily move to a level that is more in line with his level of experience.

 Then, once he's figured out how to adjust to RHP, bring him back up.

What's his BABIP against RHP?

If you send Vaughn to AAA, what is our lineup against LHP?

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, SCCWS said:

In fairness some of that is poor communication but it is also lack of experience. Even with communication, colliding w walls is a different issue.  We have seen collisions where multiple players call for a ball and end up colliding as well. 

Oh, I agree. And yes, we all understand what ss2k is saying, in that the pile of injuries is why he's here. I'd give Vaughn more rope in the OF if he were hitting, but he isn't. But, until someone gets off the IL, and/or a rental is landed, he'll unfortunately have to stay.

2 minutes ago, raBBit said:

What's his BABIP against RHP?

If you send Vaughn to AAA, what is our lineup against LHP?

Here, let me google that for you:

Vaughn's Splits

His WRC+ vs. RHP is now down to a vomit-inducing 33. Posters lost their fucking shit in past non-competitive years when Tilson or Delmonico or Palka crushed Vaughn's comparatively pathetic splits in a win now season. His BaBIP is .233 vs RHP.

RIGHT NOW, since there's like, no one else who can stand at LF, you keep Vaughn here, but limit his exposures to RHP. OR, if you MUST play him vs RHP, bat him low in the order, to limit the damage he can do to this lineup. Once Hamilton or Eaton or Engel return, let Vaughn get his bat right in Charlotte, and replace him with one of these three.

Then, go get a rental as well, to fill in until Eloy returns.

[raBBit]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Oh, I agree. And yes, we all understand what ss2k is saying, in that the pile of injuries is why he's here. I'd give Vaughn more rope in the OF if he were hitting, but he isn't. But, until someone gets off the IL, and/or a rental is landed, he'll unfortunately have to stay.

Here, let me google that for you:

Vaughn's Splits

His WRC+ vs. RHP is now down to a vomit-inducing 33. Posters lost their fucking shit in past non-competitive years when Tilson or Delmonico or Palka crushed Vaughn's comparatively pathetic splits in a win now season. His BaBIP is .233 vs RHP.

RIGHT NOW, since there's like, no one else who can stand at LF, you keep Vaughn here, but limit his exposures to RHP. OR, if you MUST play him vs RHP, bat him low in the order, to limit the damage he can do to this lineup. Once Hamilton or Eaton or Engel return, let Vaughn get his bat right in Charlotte, and replace him with one of these three.

Then, go get a rental as well, to fill in until Eloy returns.

If you're going to use his high BABIP on one split to make your point you should probably use it on the other side as well. Your argument paints an incomplete picture. In all likelihood, he looks like he's going to come back down to earth a bit against LHP and should get some BABIP-fueled relief against RHP. 

IDK why you're always so angry or talking about irrelevant players. Vaughn has been ass against RHP. I don't disagree with you. You should at least show the full picture instead of picking and choosing what fits your narrative though. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by raBBit

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, raBBit said:

If you're going to use his high BABIP on one split to make your point you should probably use it on the other side as well. Your argument paints an incomplete picture. In all likelihood, he looks like he's going to come back down to earth against LHP a bit and normalize against RHP. 

IDK why you're always so angry or talking about irrelevant players. Vaughn has been ass against RHP. I don't disagree with you. You should at least show the full picture instead of picking and choosing what fits your narrative though. 

LOL, no one's "angry."

The point of the post is that we're in a win now year, and Vaughn is killing this lineup. Not because he should be let go or anything like that, but because he's been placed in an impossible position to jump up 3 levels, and he's failing right now. Once there are other options for the OF, he'd be better off continuing his development at a more-appropriate level, while this lineup would be better off "right now" with a bat that isn't ass v. RHP "right now."

In a few weeks or in a month from now? Who knows, maybe Vaughn will have gotten it figured out, or Eloy will have returned, or there can be a rental added.

[Bob Sacamano]

Honestly let's mix it up and get Sheets some OF/DH at bats. Maybe Burger too.