Complain about Kimbrel here:

[Two-Gun Pete]

40 minutes ago, Soxfest said:

He can’t pitch in 8th inning painfully obvious.

Going into the TDL, this club needed a RH setup guy, not a closer. So what did those morons do?

They bought a closer.

24 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

He’s going through a rough stretch.  Again, from what I know of him, he really is someone who is routine orientated.  And so I imagine it must be difficult for him to make an adjustment mid season.  

If this is true, then it was stoopid to zero in on a closer who can't pitch in any other role as your RH setup man at the TDL.

I agreed that it was good to get someone who had some closing experience. But I also preferred someone who wasn't so mentally weak that he couldn't get the setup job done.

I had hoped for the cheaper to acquire Yimi Garcia, who ended up in Houston. That said, here's hoping that this org didn't stoopidly overpay/buy high on a guy who can't get it done anymore. Here's hoping he can unfuck himself sooner, rather than later.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[chw42]

Kimbrel is broken. I'm not sure if putting him in the closer's role alone is going to fix his issues.

His fastball is down half a MPH with the Sox than it was when he was on the Cubs. You can maybe attribute this to him not having the adrenaline of a save situation. This velocity is more or less similar to what he threw with the Cubs in 2019 and 2020. He's also throwing the fastball for a ball 42% of the time, up from 34% with the Cubs in 2021. Even when Kimbrel was bad for the Cubs in 19-20, he only threw his fastball for a ball 36% of the time. 

The biggest difference is how his curveball has looked and performed since he moved to the Sox. Below are 3 pitch heatmaps of his knuckle curve. The 1st is his time with the Cubs in 2021, the 2nd is his time with the Sox, the 3rd is his time with the Cubs in 2019 and 2020 (when he was pretty bad). 

2021 Cubs

2021 White Sox

2019-2020 Cubs

 

His map with the Sox looks a hell of a lot more like his map with the Cubs in 2019 and 2020 than in 2021. Granted, maybe his location hasn't been quite as erratic, but he's clearly throwing the pitch more out of the zone and towards the left handed hitter's batter's box. If this is the shape of his curve, there's no way he can effectively throw it to left handed hitters without hitting them (which he did in his outing against Oakland). It may explain why he's struggled with lefties so far with the Sox and why he's throwing the knuckle curve about 5% less. His curveball with the Cubs in 2021 was mostly in the lower part of the zone or out of the zone, but not enough to hit a left handed hitter. 

I read this FanGraphs article earlier in the year that stated how Kimbrel kind of fixed himself in ST: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/craig-kimbrel-is-dominant-once-again/

Quote

Last season, the Cubs identified that Kimbrel was getting too rotational and was flying open early. This led to multiple issues, all connected in various ways: his arm slot dropped, he was pulling his fastball, his velocity was dipping and he had no control of his breaking ball. That the issues appear to be the same can give the Cubs a slight bit of comfort since they’ve gone through what appears to be a similar process before. They know the work that’s needed to get him back to where he was at the end of last season as he looks to sync up his body once again and get his mechanics right.

If you've watched him so far, this looks like it's happening again. He's missing with the fastball a lot glove side and his curveball is once again inconsistent and all over the place. Whatever he did in ST to fix himself, he's gotta do it again. A change in roles alone won't fix him. 

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, sin city sox fan said:

Do something different like have him throw to a competent catcher?    I think he’ll be fine with Grandal behind the plate.    The fact that Lynn threw the game he did tonight with Zavala behind the plate just shows how awesome he is.   Since Yasmani got injured, we’ve been working with the worst catching duo in MLB.   Some of you greatly underestimate the effect this has on pitchers and unfortunately we have no solution until Grandal comes back.

The first WP tonight, a defensive catcher probably blocks the ball. The one that scored the run, Johnny Bench in his prime was probably 50-1 stopping it.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

These last 2 “disasters”, one good thing is he isn’t getting hit very hard.

Yeah, but command was always the concern with Craig as he's gotten older. His stuff is too good for him to get crushed repeatedly. I don't think many will argue that.

He gives away runs though because his command has no consistency.

[Colome's Hat]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Lol what in the world?

He gave up 8 runs in 10.2 innings, and had an ERA of :

11.57
4.5
4.15

in the three playoff rounds.

What is with the weird Kimbrel excuse makers on this forum?

I'm not making excuses.  He had a very high era in his first series because he literally only pitched twice.  He allowed a home run that was of no consequence in Game 1 and gave up two runs in Game 3.  In both games he got the save.  This is hardly shitting your pants.  

 

Dude was 6 of 7 in save opportunities in the playoffs.  That's pretty damned good.

 

[wegner]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Lol what in the world?

He gave up 8 runs in 10.2 innings, and had an ERA of :

11.57
4.5
4.15

in the three playoff rounds.

What is with the weird Kimbrel excuse makers on this forum?

How he looked in those playoffs was the main reason I was luke warm about this trade when it happened.  Just hope it works out this year and/or Hahn is able to get something decent for him in the offseason.

[wegner]

6 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Kimbrel is broken. I'm not sure if putting him in the closer's role alone is going to fix his issues.

His fastball is down half a MPH with the Sox than it was when he was on the Cubs. You can maybe attribute this to him not having the adrenaline of a save situation. This velocity is more or less similar to what he threw with the Cubs in 2019 and 2020. He's also throwing the fastball for a ball 42% of the time, up from 34% with the Cubs in 2021. Even when Kimbrel was bad for the Cubs in 19-20, he only threw his fastball for a ball 36% of the time. 

The biggest difference is how his curveball has looked and performed since he moved to the Sox. Below are 3 pitch heatmaps of his knuckle curve. The 1st is his time with the Cubs in 2021, the 2nd is his time with the Sox, the 3rd is his time with the Cubs in 2019 and 2020 (when he was pretty bad). 

2021 Cubs

2021 White Sox

2019-2020 Cubs

 

His map with the Sox looks a hell of a lot more like his map with the Cubs in 2019 and 2020 than in 2021. Granted, maybe his location hasn't been quite as erratic, but he's clearly throwing the pitch more out of the zone and towards the left handed hitter's batter's box. If this is the shape of his curve, there's no way he can effectively throw it to left handed hitters without hitting them (which he did in his outing against Oakland). It may explain why he's struggled with lefties so far with the Sox and why he's throwing the knuckle curve about 5% less. His curveball with the Cubs in 2021 was mostly in the lower part of the zone or out of the zone, but not enough to hit a left handed hitter. 

I read this FanGraphs article earlier in the year that stated how Kimbrel kind of fixed himself in ST: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/craig-kimbrel-is-dominant-once-again/

If you've watched him so far, this looks like it's happening again. He's missing with the fastball a lot glove side and his curveball is once again inconsistent and all over the place. Whatever he did in ST to fix himself, he's gotta do it again. A change in roles alone won't fix him. 

Great analysis again, thank you.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

I'm not making excuses.  He had a very high era in his first series because he literally only pitched twice.  He allowed a home run that was of no consequence in Game 1 and gave up two runs in Game 3.  In both games he got the save.  This is hardly shitting your pants.  

 

Dude was 6 of 7 in save opportunities in the playoffs.  That's pretty damned good.

 

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not. He had an ERA of 6 and a WHIP of 1.6. He got saves because his team was up by so much.

This article talks about how exciting Kimbrel found a way to make playoff games that were practically over before he came in lol.

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2018/10/22/18007620/craig-kimbrel-boston-red-sox-los-angeles-dodgers-closer-blown-saves

Kimbrel was awful in the 2018 playoffs.

[hi8is]

9 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Kimbrel is broken. I'm not sure if putting him in the closer's role alone is going to fix his issues.

His fastball is down half a MPH with the Sox than it was when he was on the Cubs. You can maybe attribute this to him not having the adrenaline of a save situation. This velocity is more or less similar to what he threw with the Cubs in 2019 and 2020. He's also throwing the fastball for a ball 42% of the time, up from 34% with the Cubs in 2021. Even when Kimbrel was bad for the Cubs in 19-20, he only threw his fastball for a ball 36% of the time. 

The biggest difference is how his curveball has looked and performed since he moved to the Sox. Below are 3 pitch heatmaps of his knuckle curve. The 1st is his time with the Cubs in 2021, the 2nd is his time with the Sox, the 3rd is his time with the Cubs in 2019 and 2020 (when he was pretty bad). 

2021 Cubs

2021 White Sox

2019-2020 Cubs

 

His map with the Sox looks a hell of a lot more like his map with the Cubs in 2019 and 2020 than in 2021. Granted, maybe his location hasn't been quite as erratic, but he's clearly throwing the pitch more out of the zone and towards the left handed hitter's batter's box. If this is the shape of his curve, there's no way he can effectively throw it to left handed hitters without hitting them (which he did in his outing against Oakland). It may explain why he's struggled with lefties so far with the Sox and why he's throwing the knuckle curve about 5% less. His curveball with the Cubs in 2021 was mostly in the lower part of the zone or out of the zone, but not enough to hit a left handed hitter. 

I read this FanGraphs article earlier in the year that stated how Kimbrel kind of fixed himself in ST: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/craig-kimbrel-is-dominant-once-again/

If you've watched him so far, this looks like it's happening again. He's missing with the fastball a lot glove side and his curveball is once again inconsistent and all over the place. Whatever he did in ST to fix himself, he's gotta do it again. A change in roles alone won't fix him. 

This post is hereby awarded Post of the Day.

[ShoeLessRob]

Dallas Keuchal also received Cy Young votes last year 🤷. Small sample sizes suck. He’s prolly not this bad, but we’re also not getting the below 1 ERA guy from the first half. Never pay a premium for bullpen pieces, too many question marks. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by ShoeLessRob

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not. He had an ERA of 6 and a WHIP of 1.6. He got saves because his team was up by so much.

This article talks about how exciting Kimbrel found a way to make playoff games that were practically over before he came in lol.

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2018/10/22/18007620/craig-kimbrel-boston-red-sox-los-angeles-dodgers-closer-blown-saves

Kimbrel was awful in the 2018 playoffs.

The first 8 innings he pitched in the postseason in his career, he gave up 1 hit and struck out 15.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

The first 8 innings he pitched in the postseason in his career, he gave up 1 hit and struck out 15.

Yes, between 2010-2017, Craig Kimbrel was the best reliever that has ever put on a uniform. I don't think many would refute that.

I was merely pointing out that year that Colome's hat said he wasn't bad he was actually, in fact, really bad.

[Colome's Hat]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The first 8 innings he pitched in the postseason in his career, he gave up 1 hit and struck out 15.

I remember Stoney, I think it was when Addison Reed was closing in 2012, basically said that ERA was worthless for a closer.  I'm not sure I entirely agree but I see his point.  All of it is moot when you get the job done.  Kimbrel got the job done way more than he didn't in 2018 in the playoffs.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, between 2010-2017, Craig Kimbrel was the best reliever that has ever put on a uniform. I don't think many would refute that.

I was merely pointing out that year that Colome's hat said he wasn't bad he was actually, in fact, really bad.

But you are going on about 2018 and also admitted a bad outing or 2 blows everything out of proportion.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

But you are going on about 2018 and also admitted a bad outing or 2 blows everything out of proportion.

It wasn't a bad outing or two; Kimbrel was walking a tight rope nearly every single game he came in. He was bad. Not sure why this is being debated now; weird stuff.

Has nothing to do with this year and what he could do this year; maybe this year if things go well and the Sox are in the playoffs deep he dominates. I'm just disputing the story that Kimbrel wasn't bad and didn't shit the bed. he did.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Soxbadger]

2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I just don't understand why they want to die on the Craig Kimbrel can pitch the 8th inning hill.  It would be different if he wasn't one of the best closers in baseball history but those 371 career saves don't lie. Do something different. 

So you're going to demote the closer you signed this off-season for a guy who cant perform just because maybe that will make him play better?

You dance with the one who brought you. No point in messing up Hendricks because Kimbrel cant do his job.

 

[Colome's Hat]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, between 2010-2017, Craig Kimbrel was the best reliever that has ever put on a uniform. I don't think many would refute that.

I was merely pointing out that year that Colome's hat said he wasn't bad he was actually, in fact, really bad.

It depends on what you look at.  Dude saved 6 of 7 games.  And yes walked a highwire act but also got the job done.  

 

And dude was literally putting up historic numbers through July.

[Colome's Hat]

1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

So you're going to demote the closer you signed this off-season for a guy who cant perform just because maybe that will make him play better?

You dance with the one who brought you. No point in messing up Hendricks because Kimbrel cant do his job.

 

Hypothetically, Kimbrel pitching in in early season form in the 9th and Hendriks dominating in the 8th makes the White Sox bullpen better, no?

I'm not of the opinion that the White Sox should do this.  But just saying...

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Alright fella's, logging off until the next time Kimbrel blows a game and gives up a run.

See you tomorrow night!

Edited August 24, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Soxbadger]

2 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

Hypothetically, Kimbrel pitching in in early season form in the 9th and Hendriks dominating in the 8th makes the White Sox bullpen better, no?

I'm not of the opinion that the White Sox should do this.  But just saying...

Maybe or it messes with Hendriks and Kimbrel keeps playing like he did in the previous 2 seasons.

I know people seem to think Kimbrel cant miss, but Im pretty sure prior to this season the Sox preferred Hendriks. Now we are going to possibly mess around with Hendriks because we have to justify the Kimbrel trade?

People keep comparing Kimbrel to Griffey Jr in his prime on this board, time for him to prove it.

[Dick Allen]

12 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It wasn't a bad outing or two; Kimbrel was walking a tight rope nearly every single game he came in. He was bad. Not sure why this is being debated now; weird stuff.

Has nothing to do with this year and what he could do this year; maybe this year if things go well and the Sox are in the playoffs deep he dominates. I'm just disputing the story that Kimbrel wasn't bad and didn't shit the bed. he did.

2018 Lance Lynn had an 11.57 postseason ERA, Hendriks postseason ERA was 18.00, and according to the Guaranteed Rate commercial Lucas Giolito was the worst pitcher in baseball. The Sox are screwed.

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Maybe or it messes with Hendriks and Kimbrel keeps playing like he did in the previous 2 seasons.

I know people seem to think Kimbrel cant miss, but Im pretty sure prior to this season the Sox preferred Hendriks. Now we are going to possibly mess around with Hendriks because we have to justify the Kimbrel trade?

People keep comparing Kimbrel to Griffey Jr in his prime on this board, time for him to prove it.

How many borderline HoF relievers (and there aren't many) have been taken out of that role and put back into the 7th/8th and done well at it?

It's pretty much unheard of, if for no other reason than Kimbrel's salary to pitch just 50-60 innings per season.

You just know Hahn is more likely to double down to justify the trade, rather than "fix" Kimbrel and/or let him go without anything in return this off-season.  The way he's pitching right now, you're not going to find a team willing to pay him $16 million in 2022, let alone give up significant talent in a potential deal for him.

Edited August 24, 2021 by caulfield12

[ShoeLessRob]

Do they allow mulligans in baseball? 

[Colome's Hat]

8 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Maybe or it messes with Hendriks and Kimbrel keeps playing like he did in the previous 2 seasons.

I know people seem to think Kimbrel cant miss, but Im pretty sure prior to this season the Sox preferred Hendriks. Now we are going to possibly mess around with Hendriks because we have to justify the Kimbrel trade?

People keep comparing Kimbrel to Griffey Jr in his prime on this board, time for him to prove it.

Hendriks has publicly said he is fine with pitching the 8th.  He could be lying but I take him at his word.  He seems to be able to pitch in whatever situation you throw him in.

[Soxbadger]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

How many borderline HoF relievers (and there aren't many) have been taken out of that role and put back into the 7th/8th and done well at it?

It's pretty much unheard of, if for no other reason than Kimbrel's salary to pitch just 50-60 innings per season.

Well from the beginning Ive said it was a stupid plan. But you dont double down and make even more bad decisions.

If Kimbrel a "HOF" Griffey in his prime cant switch to set up, why can lowly Hendriks? Wont we just be in the same position with forcing a closer into a set up role?

Hendriks is more important to the Sox, you cant potentially damage him for Kimbrel.  Hahn possibly messed this up big time.