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Let's make Crochet a starter?


vilehoopster
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5 hours ago, he gone. said:

For every person that says "no" or "it's not possible" I'd just like them to explain to me Spencer Strider. 

Top innings was 51ip in college, did 94ip in the minors, and then converted from long man to starter and was very impactful for the Braves at 131ip. He has two pitches. He throws 95% fastball/slider. Now the slider is one of the best pitches in the MLB... 

 

However, for all naysayers, take your best crack at explaining Strider. To me, there's too many people in this world who are too comfortable saying "can't". 

 

Now, that said, without Hendriks I think it's much tougher. 

i think the sox were/are grooming Lopez for the closers role. Because of that they would like to keep him out of the spotlight to get him on a reasonable extension. without hendriks i think they'll now have to lean on crochet and graveman, kelly a lot more to keep lopez out of the closer spot as to not drive up his price. But before that injury I was all on board getting Crochet 80-100ip and letting him rev up into the end of the season when we need him the most. 

The most important thing, of course, is taking the time to get him completely healthy.  I agree and hope they try to develop him as a starter.  
And I certainly hope that depressing Lopez' market value (or reducing it in any way) isn't a factor in how Lopez and/or Crochet is used. That would be inane.  

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I think the best choice for GC is to try to turn him into early career Josh Hader at this point but even when he was throwing 101 mph he had issues holding it for more than one inning. 

If they could bring him in for the 7th and go straight to the closer without having to use another pitcher that would really help. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Didn't you say August was most likely for a return for Crochet? 

It was 16-18 months, right? 

I think they will try to rush him back by May.

I think the longer you give him the better it is. There are many examples of people like Severino and Syndergaard who have the surgery in spring training of a year and then barely pitch the entire next year - they threw 6 and 2 big league innings a full year after their surgery, respectively. We saw this with Rodon, he had his in May 2019, tried to come back in September 2020 and he was simply useless in a couple of relief innings. This is absolutely the norm for this surgery right now, guys coming back and trying to throw max effort after 14 or 15 months see poor results and a lot of pain.

I think simply healing all the way is a 12 to 14 month process maybe longer for some guys. Once that is finished, you need to build your whole body back up into pitching strength, which often takes months or even a full offseason. I think we saw Verlander have success because he had the surgery, had 12-13 months to heal, and then did a full and complete offseason training routine. I think Rodon came back strong in 2021 because he completed a full offseason training routine and had his body fully together and in shape. Just because your elbow is now fine doesn't mean you have strengthened your legs and you have your full mechanics back. 

I think in reality you shouldn’t count on Crochet for anything this year, you should assume it’s basically a lost season for him. He may well contribute more than that, but pushing him to do so isn’t likely to produce world beating results and may backfire. If you are counting on him to save the bullpen, look at the guys who threw 6 innings before winding up on the IL again and let me know what your plan is if that happens to Crochet.

So personally, I’d bury him in Birmingham and bring him back super slowly once he was ready to see live hitting, and I’d just keep him there, I’d burn an option and not try to count on him for the big league bullpen at all. I would take any innings he could give and try to turn them towards long term development, rather than desperately trying to save the big league pen. This is way more consistent with how long the recoveries have been from TJS over the past 5 years. If there was a spot to call him up in September and his body was in good shape, fine, September callup when the rosters expand. 

I don’t expect the White Sox to do anything other than try to desperately pull every inning out of him that they can for this years’ big league pen.

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Definitely agree there. Need him fully healthy before pushing at all. But there's an opportunity here to get him innings even if he's not up to full speed. Birmingham innings v. middle relief innings to me are the same. If he responds to middle relief innings then give him higher leverage. But overall, just start logging innings. 

If his arm is going to fall off and his health is going to suck it'll do the same out of the bullpen too. We have him on a cheap, short contract until FA, so why not run him out and give him every chance to compete in the largest role possible?

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7 hours ago, he gone. said:

For every person that says "no" or "it's not possible" I'd just like them to explain to me Spencer Strider. 

Top innings was 51ip in college, did 94ip in the minors, and then converted from long man to starter and was very impactful for the Braves at 131ip. He has two pitches. He throws 95% fastball/slider. Now the slider is one of the best pitches in the MLB... 

 

However, for all naysayers, take your best crack at explaining Strider. To me, there's too many people in this world who are too comfortable saying "can't". 

 

Now, that said, without Hendriks I think it's much tougher. 

i think the sox were/are grooming Lopez for the closers role. Because of that they would like to keep him out of the spotlight to get him on a reasonable extension. without hendriks i think they'll now have to lean on crochet and graveman, kelly a lot more to keep lopez out of the closer spot as to not drive up his price. But before that injury I was all on board getting Crochet 80-100ip and letting him rev up into the end of the season when we need him the most. 

How many years of control does Strider have? That's the major issue

Edited by Squirmin' for Yermin
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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I think they will try to rush him back by May.

I think the longer you give him the better it is. There are many examples of people like Severino and Syndergaard who have the surgery in spring training of a year and then barely pitch the entire next year - they threw 6 and 2 big league innings a full year after their surgery, respectively. We saw this with Rodon, he had his in May 2019, tried to come back in September 2020 and he was simply useless in a couple of relief innings. This is absolutely the norm for this surgery right now, guys coming back and trying to throw max effort after 14 or 15 months see poor results and a lot of pain.

I think simply healing all the way is a 12 to 14 month process maybe longer for some guys. Once that is finished, you need to build your whole body back up into pitching strength, which often takes months or even a full offseason. I think we saw Verlander have success because he had the surgery, had 12-13 months to heal, and then did a full and complete offseason training routine. I think Rodon came back strong in 2021 because he completed a full offseason training routine and had his body fully together and in shape. Just because your elbow is now fine doesn't mean you have strengthened your legs and you have your full mechanics back. 

I think in reality you shouldn’t count on Crochet for anything this year, you should assume it’s basically a lost season for him. He may well contribute more than that, but pushing him to do so isn’t likely to produce world beating results and may backfire. If you are counting on him to save the bullpen, look at the guys who threw 6 innings before winding up on the IL again and let me know what your plan is if that happens to Crochet.

So personally, I’d bury him in Birmingham and bring him back super slowly once he was ready to see live hitting, and I’d just keep him there, I’d burn an option and not try to count on him for the big league bullpen at all. I would take any innings he could give and try to turn them towards long term development, rather than desperately trying to save the big league pen. This is way more consistent with how long the recoveries have been from TJS over the past 5 years. If there was a spot to call him up in September and his body was in good shape, fine, September callup when the rosters expand. 

I don’t expect the White Sox to do anything other than try to desperately pull every inning out of him that they can for this years’ big league pen.

Yeah so you save 2 months service time? Do they get an extra year of control for that? 

IIRC since he got injured in ST and was on the 25 man roster in 2021 all of his time on the IL counts toward service time. 

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1 hour ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

How many years of control does Strider have? That's the major issue

Why? For reference he signed a 6 year and 75mm extension. So they have him for 6 more years, and they're not cheap and are guaranteed unlike Crochet. We have all the upside and none of the downside. 

Spencer Strider also went through TJS at Clemson. He pitched 12IP in 2019 and 2020 combined. Sound familiar? He only has two pitches. Sound familiar? Never topped out at high innings in minors or college. Sound familiar? 

He came back in 2021 and pitched 94ip and then 131ip this year. 

This is the exact path that Crochet should be on. He's not going to hit 94ip this year due to the longer recovery, but Spencer Strider is your comp as a Sox fan. 

I know its the fun thing to do on this board to just say "no" or to disagree with every single take. It's a message board ala Twitter. It's what people seem to do on the internet ... disagree to disagree. But Crochet should aim to be Strider and Sox fans should too. He's cheap and we have no downside to push him, especially if its what he wants. 

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Bullpen coach Curt Hasler:

 

“We hope he can just add to what we believe is already a strong bullpen,” Hasler said. “Now all of a sudden you can add him to the bullpen or rotation or something like that. Whatever we decide. But he’s still early in the process.”

 

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2023/1/28/23574256/white-sox-have-plenty-of-options-to-fill-closer-void

 

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On 1/23/2023 at 10:01 AM, he gone. said:

For every person that says "no" or "it's not possible" I'd just like them to explain to me Spencer Strider. 

Top innings was 51ip in college, did 94ip in the minors, and then converted from long man to starter and was very impactful for the Braves at 131ip. He has two pitches. He throws 95% fastball/slider. Now the slider is one of the best pitches in the MLB... 

 

However, for all naysayers, take your best crack at explaining Strider. To me, there's too many people in this world who are too comfortable saying "can't". 

 

Now, that said, without Hendriks I think it's much tougher. 

i think the sox were/are grooming Lopez for the closers role. Because of that they would like to keep him out of the spotlight to get him on a reasonable extension. without hendriks i think they'll now have to lean on crochet and graveman, kelly a lot more to keep lopez out of the closer spot as to not drive up his price. But before that injury I was all on board getting Crochet 80-100ip and letting him rev up into the end of the season when we need him the most. 

The points about the contract difference with Strider and good, and if starting is important enough to Crochet, I could see him signing a team-friendly extension to give the Sox some more incentive to potentially have him spend 2023 and even 2024 building up innings and developing a third pitch. Crochet's injuries are going to cost him in Arbitration so maybe there is some wiggle room there. 

Strider was a late bloomer (size and talent wise) that had TJ during his sophomore year of college. He changed his arm action and built up his legs, both of which took pressure off of his elbow. When you watch Strider pitch, his 100mph looks effortless, which is crazy for a guy that is 6'0 200.

Compare that to Crochet who has great size (6'6 230lb (not Lynn weight but actual muscle) who has absolutely nasty torque. Between the leg kick, the hips, and the arm action, his delivery is somewhat violent. His entire profile reminds me a lot of Hader or Chapman. Randy Johnson had a similar arm slot and similar violent delivery, but there has never been another of him

Whether he could or should change his mechanics to take stress off of the elbow is another debate. The way he used his hips and his elbow not only create his velocity but a ton of deception. He hides the ball really well which makes him unhittable at times. I'm not sure that a toned down version of Crochet can have as much value as he would have as high-leverage reliever. 

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Why is it that Lopez can be considered to  just step back into the rotation after relieving for this long. Yet it’s supposed to be some impossible short term lift for guys like Crochet (and Kopech)? I understand the explanations I’m going to get, but I think if Lopez can do it so easily (apparently), this kind of over concern is overblown.

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3 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Why is it that Lopez can be considered to  just step back into the rotation after relieving for this long. Yet it’s supposed to be some impossible short term lift for guys like Crochet (and Kopech)? I understand the explanations I’m going to get, but I think if Lopez can do it so easily (apparently), this kind of over concern is overblown.

I don’t think many (if any at all) think López is an option for the rotation.

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