White Sox, Getz have more work to do before spring training opens

[Dick Allen]

48 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

No, and that's not even the argument I'm making. I'm not even sure what you're doing at this point. Maybe you should read up-string, and argue the actual points I've made, instead of assigning me blame for what the voices in your head are saying. 

Let me catch you up: My argument is that while director of player development, he graduated the players he should have, and increased the rate of players who could sub in for 50 games and provide value. I don't really care that you hate Rick Hahn, or Jerry Reinsdorf, or pretend that all front offices spend their days sitting around and laughing at baseball players. 

Ha Those players didn’t provide value any more than any other team in baseball. Every team has replacement level players in the minors. The other teams develop several and make them better. Getz’ regime did not. In the same press conference JR stated KW and RH could turn the Sox around, he basically blamed them for Getz failure. I wonder if teams had been calling JR for years trying to get Getz because they were so impressed with the list of replacement level players you mentioned. Maybe, and I hope he will be a good GM. There was that one show where CEOs put on a costume and did lowere level jobs to see what was going on, and they didn’t do them very well. Maybe a guy who can’t develop players can be a good GM.  It’s our only hope.

 

There are plenty of indications that we’ve got ourselves a future starter in Norge Vera,” said Chris Getz, Chicago’s assistant general manager/director of player development. “We look forward to continuing his development.” Oops.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Ha Those players didn’t provide value any more than any other team in baseball. Every team has replacement level players in the minors. The other teams develop several and make them better. Getz’ regime did not. In the same press conference JR stated KW and RH could turn the Sox around, he basically blamed them for Getz failure. I wonder if teams had been calling JR for years trying to get Getz because they were so impressed with the list of replacement level players you mentioned. Maybe, and I hope he will be a good GM. There was that one show where CEOs put on a costume and did lowere level jobs to see what was going on, and they didn’t do them very well. Maybe a guy who can’t develop players can be a good GM.  It’s our only hope.

 

There are plenty of indications that we’ve got ourselves a future starter in Norge Vera,” said Chris Getz, Chicago’s assistant general manager/director of player development. “We look forward to continuing his development.” Oops.

Wasn't there a Fangraphs article that was posted about a month ago posit the argument that replacement players for the White Sox this past season put up the collectively worst fWAR in the history of the modern game?

Not even sure what that had to do with guys like Delmonico Palka or Leury or Zavala looking semi-useful for stretches of individual seasons...

I mean, Tray Thompson Week 1 with the LAD looked like Brock Purdy until he ran into the Ravens yesterday.

Edited December 26, 2023 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Wasn't there a Fangraphs article that was posted about a month ago posit the argument that replacement players for the White Sox this past season put up the collectively worst fWAR in the history of the modern game?

Not even sure what that had to do with guys like Delmonico Palka or Leury or Zavala looking semi-useful for stretches of individual seasons...

I mean, Tray Thompson Week 1 with the LAD looked like Brock Purdy until he ran into the Ravens yesterday.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-not-to-build-for-depth/
 

 

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

There are plenty of indications that we’ve got ourselves a future starter in Norge Vera,” said Chris Getz, Chicago’s assistant general manager/director of player development. “We look forward to continuing his development.” Oops.

Hasn't Vera been battling injuries during his time with the Sox? It looks like Vera's longest stretch at any level was 24 innings spread over 8 starts at Kannapolis last year. Are you claiming that Getz somehow hurt him after leaving the Player Development position?

It sounds like you're saying Chris Getz was an average Director of Player Development. I've made a few lists of players that came up under Getz. Again, I'm asking for a list of hot prospects that failed under Getz during his tenure. not a list of guys from 2012 to the present who were disappointing. 

 

 

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

Hasn't Vera been battling injuries during his time with the Sox? It looks like Vera's longest stretch at any level was 24 innings spread over 8 starts at Kannapolis last year. Are you claiming that Getz somehow hurt him after leaving the Player Development position?

It sounds like you're saying Chris Getz was an average Director of Player Development. I've made a few lists of players that came up under Getz. Again, I'm asking for a list of hot prospects that failed under Getz during his tenure. not a list of guys from 2012 to the present who were disappointing. 

 

 

Vera was expected to be a future rotation mainstay when he signed...and the White Sox had had an excellent record with Cuban signings until Vera, Yogurt Sanchez and Cespedes.

Just ran out of low hanging fruit and had to compete with the rest of baseball for that diminishing rate of return.

Tatis' brother would be another...although not Cuban.

 

Those injuries happen with pitching because of the elevated rate of volatility...that's why mid market teams need 2-3x minor league depth to fill holes over the course of a season.

[Quin]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Let me know where I've argued that. Nicky Delmonico put out a pretty useful 1.4 bWAR in 43 games in 2017. The league adjusted to him, and he never really recovered. Also, please tell me how that's worse than J.B. Shuck's -( that's minus)1.8 bWAR put up in 80 games as an OF replacement in 2016. 

I'm not sure what anybody's arguing, here. It's like y'all encounter a guy who isn't making the same jokes over and over, and suddenly, I'm in love with Rick Hahn. 

I'm saying that the Sox seem to be putting out more useful pieces during and after Getz' tenure than they were before. I don't care if somebody doesn't think that a dude coming up and putting 1 WAR in 40-50 games as a replacement isn't "useful". It is, and all of MLB is probably reading this string and laughing at the tortured arguments

I love that Chris Getz must have been aiding Delmonico's breakout 2016 campaign in AA while he was in the Royals FO.

But sure, Getz ran the ship from 2017-2023. A six year span. So far we've got Nicky Delmonico as the crown jewel of that. Let's look six years prior from 2010 - 2016

• Chris Sale
• Jose Quintana
• Addison Reed
• Nate Jones
• Sergio Santos
• Hector Santiago
• Carlos Rodon
• Yolmer Sanchez
• Scott Carroll (normally wouldn't count, but you counted Yermin)
• Omar Narvaez
• Daniel Webb
• Leury Garcia

I won't count Adam Eaton or Jose Abreu since they wouldn't count under the same criteria that I counted against Getz (highly ranked prospect acquisition / expensive foreign FA), but they also came through at this time.

Players of note who didn't reach their peaks with the Sox, but made the majors with them

• Frankie Montas
• Daniel Hudson
• Marcus Semien
• Chris Bassitt
• Trayce Thompson

But sure, Yermin Mercedes and Seby Zavala

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Quin said:

I love that Chris Getz must have been aiding Delmonico's breakout 2016 campaign in AA while he was in the Royals FO.

But sure, Getz ran the ship from 2017-2023. A six year span. So far we've got Nicky Delmonico as the crown jewel of that. Let's look six years prior from 2010 - 2016

• Chris Sale
• Jose Quintana
• Addison Reed
• Nate Jones
• Sergio Santos
• Hector Santiago
• Carlos Rodon
• Yolmer Sanchez
• Scott Carroll (normally wouldn't count, but you counted Yermin)
• Omar Narvaez
• Daniel Webb
• Leury Garcia

I won't count Adam Eaton or Jose Abreu since they wouldn't count under the same criteria that I counted against Getz (highly ranked prospect acquisition / expensive foreign FA), but they also came through at this time.

Players of note who didn't reach their peaks with the Sox, but made the majors with them

• Frankie Montas
• Daniel Hudson
• Marcus Semien
• Chris Bassitt
• Trayce Thompson

But sure, Yermin Mercedes and Seby Zavala

Eduardo Escobar would be another.

Carlos Martinez's son had a decent run for the Cardinales.

Chris The Dragon Devenski.

Edited December 26, 2023 by caulfield12

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, Quin said:

But sure, Getz ran the ship from 2017-2023.

He was promoted out of the role in 2020 to Asst. GM. Seby Zavala was developed into a plus defensive catcher from a bat first late-rounder. 

[Quin]

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

He was promoted out of the role in 2020 to Asst. GM. Seby Zavala was developed into a plus defensive catcher from a bat first late-rounder. 

They just removed the bat part.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

He was promoted out of the role in 2020 to Asst. GM. Seby Zavala was developed into a plus defensive catcher from a bat first late-rounder. 

Somehow they got those two sides twisted around...much like Tyler Flowers.

As a plus for Seby, the defense held up for 2-3 months to give him around a 1.0-1.5ish fWAR, but then the offense just totally cratered.

He also had his one offensive run (not including 2-3 run homer games) in 2022 when he looked passable for at least half the season while hitting, but it was unfortunately a mirage in the desert.

 

(Of course, the White Sox failed to get much defensive improvement out of Narvaez and Yermin, and Grandal continued to regress, partially because he just aged out, but it's certainly not like they were the team you selected to "fix" that aspect of your overall game, not at all.)

[ron883]

And I thought Harold carried water for Getz.

[caulfield12]

Could it be Marty34 back again?

Stubborn intransigence in the face of overwhelming evidence is a similar trait.

[WhiteSox2023]

6 minutes ago, ron883 said:

And I thought Harold carried water for Getz.

You have to truly dig deep to defend your new GM by saying he helped develop guys like Nicky Delmonico and Seby Zavala.  Just think where the Sox record would’ve been in previous years without Getz helping to improve these fine young ballplayers.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You have to truly dig deep to defend your new GM by saying he helped develop guys like Nicky Delmonico and Seby Zavala.  Just think where the Sox record would’ve been in previous years without Getz helping to improve these fine young ballplayers.

What next, the Sox had an 8% increase in attendance because a majority of female fans thought he was handsome/charming as well?   The Kirk McCaskill of his (brief) Sox generation.

Does Getz get credit for that, too?

 

[WestEddy]

9 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You have to truly dig deep to defend your new GM by saying he helped develop guys like Nicky Delmonico and Seby Zavala.

You still haven't posted any evidence to disprove my stated point. You haven't dug at all. 

KW/Hahn rushed the first rounders, and I'm not sure if Hostetler was a crappy director of scouting, or if KW/JR just bum rushed the war room and started throwing darts. But you haven't even made a point, yet. 

 

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Does Getz get credit for that, too?

Now you're just being silly. Nobody has disproven my assertion that Getz isn't "inexperienced", coming into the GM role, and I haven't been given any evidence that he was anything less than an average director of player development in his 3 years in that role. Graduating top prospects isn't a negative in this case. Joke all you want, it's all you really have, right now. 

[WestEddy]

22 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Stubborn intransigence in the face of overwhelming evidence

Dude, a small bunch of guys accusing me of sticking up for Hahn, or saying that Getz was a great pick, or that Getz ruined a bunch of guys he had nothing to do with isn't "overwhelming evidence". Present some overwhelming evidence, and I'll deal with it. 

[WestEddy]

...And there it is. 

 

Edited yesterday at 04:06 PM by WestEddy

[ron883]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

...And there it is. 

 

You're talking to the 22-time winner of the day right now - me!

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Dude, a small bunch of guys accusing me of sticking up for Hahn, or saying that Getz was a great pick, or that Getz ruined a bunch of guys he had nothing to do with isn't "overwhelming evidence". Present some overwhelming evidence, and I'll deal with it. 

There's no way to objectively PROVE anything, since scouting/drafting/evaluation are separated from development.

But if the White Sox record in development is "league average" by any standard you want to apply, then we've just set one of the lowest possible bars for what is considered average.

But I'm sure that there will be some arguing TLR was a better manager than average in 2022...while the majority who watched all the games would say he was one of the 2-3 worst of all-time Sox history.

 

However, the Fangraphs article posits the backed up with statistical evidence argument that the Sox had the very worst replacement players (aggregated) than any team in modern baseball history.

You can blame Hostetler, KW, Hahn, JR, Jeremy Haber...that's the magic of this organization, avoiding responsibility for being held accountable for poor results for much of the past 18 going on 19 years since the World Series.

[WestEddy]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You can blame Hostetler, KW, Hahn, JR, Jeremy Haber...that's the magic of this organization, avoiding responsibility for being held accountable for poor results

So we should be happy with a guy who is defining roles, introducing accountability, and throwing some order into an organization built on chaos. 

If there's no way to objectively PROVE anything, then it's silly for the people here to declare that because of a list of things that had nothing to do with Getz' management of player development, he was poor at his job. 

Tell you what. If Getz mistakenly trades Colson Montgomery for the 2023 equivalent of James Shields, I'll say he's bad at his job. But it just gets tiresome, where every single comment string everywhere on the internet has to get clobbered with "Getz is inexperienced", and "he sucks because he graduated all of the top prospects to the major leagues". 

[Dick Allen]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Hasn't Vera been battling injuries during his time with the Sox? It looks like Vera's longest stretch at any level was 24 innings spread over 8 starts at Kannapolis last year. Are you claiming that Getz somehow hurt him after leaving the Player Development position?

It sounds like you're saying Chris Getz was an average Director of Player Development. I've made a few lists of players that came up under Getz. Again, I'm asking for a list of hot prospects that failed under Getz during his tenure. not a list of guys from 2012 to the present who were disappointing. 

 

 

He had no problem saying he was looking like a future cornerstone when he was injured, and walking everyone. You should save your post. Someday you will re read it wonder how the hell you can call the players you listed feathers in Getz cap.  Maybe you’re his brother or something. The only team in baseball that would give him a GM job, gave it to him. All we have left is hoping JR is smarter than everyone else again. It never seems to work

 

spencer Adams, Jared Kelly, Matt Thompson, CArson Fulmer, Zack Burdi, Zack Collins, do you need more? All first and 2nd round total busts.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Dick Allen

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Someday you will re read it wonder how the hell you can call the players you listed feathers in Getz cap.

I keep wondering how all y'all keep forgetting to post this list of amazing prospect talent the White Sox had, and Chris Getz taught them all how to suck. There are a lot of MLB front office personnel who are with the only organization who would offer them that position. Tell me, when you look for a job, and you're offered a job, do you hold off on accepting that job until you get multiple offers, just to prove that you're a great job prospect? 

Where do all these insane rules come from? The guy was an Asst GM, then was promoted to GM. I've said this many times in these strings, but I get that y'all are unhappy that Reinsdorf said some BS, then just promoted somebody. Everybody is bending themselves into pretzel shapes to try to portray Chris Getz as the architect of 15+ years of sucking. 

The actual feathers in Getz's cap I listed (Eloy, Yoan, Gio, Cease, Robert), everybody says don't count because everything good about them happened outside of our organization, and everything bad happened because Chris Getz made them cry, or something.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

. 

The actual feathers in Getz's cap I listed (Eloy, Yoan, Gio, Cease, Robert), everybody says don't count because everything good about them happened outside of our organization, and everything bad happened because Chris Getz made them cry, or something.

Eloy is not a feather in anyone’s cap, he’s a major disappointment. Yoan is a major disappointment. Pretty much all of them have been at best inconsistent so far, maybe save Robert.

Had these guys been feathers in anyone’s cap, the White Sox wouldn’t have lost 101 games last year.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I keep wondering how all y'all keep forgetting to post this list of amazing prospect talent the White Sox had, and Chris Getz taught them all how to suck. There are a lot of MLB front office personnel who are with the only organization who would offer them that position. Tell me, when you look for a job, and you're offered a job, do you hold off on accepting that job until you get multiple offers, just to prove that you're a great job prospect? 

Where do all these insane rules come from? The guy was an Asst GM, then was promoted to GM. I've said this many times in these strings, but I get that y'all are unhappy that Reinsdorf said some BS, then just promoted somebody. Everybody is bending themselves into pretzel shapes to try to portray Chris Getz as the architect of 15+ years of sucking. 

The actual feathers in Getz's cap I listed (Eloy, Yoan, Gio, Cease, Robert), everybody says don't count because everything good about them happened outside of our organization, and everything bad happened because Chris Getz made them cry, or something.

You do realize that we had 1st, 2nd, & 3rd round picks most years right?  How did all those guys do under Getz’s watch?