Pitching analytics

[ptatc]

At a conference and a presentation on pitching analytics. What teams are doing with in the last couple years is crazy.

A couple of significant takeaways.

1. The data collected from start to start is really expanding. An example used was looking at the weather during a previous start and weight loss down to the ounce after showed issues. So the pitch count for the next game was decreased due to that extra stress and nutrition from the recovery. Pitch count is more than just gameday.

2. An issue with data and analytics is still that technology can't accurately measure pitching. The arm moves at 7000 degrees per second. Cameras and wearable just cant measure it accurately.

3. Best way to keep a pitcher deathly is to really train the body physically. This takes up to eight months. Only way to do this is they aren't pitching which pitchers cant do. Unless they are out due to an injury. Cited the way the White Sox rehabbed Crochet as the new way all organizations are approaching the pitcher body during rehab.

4. During predraft camp, 95% showed rotator cuff pathology, 85% showed abnormalities in the UCL. Especially , pitchers from SEC and old PAC 10. Pitchers come to the MLB preinjured.

Edited February 13 by ptatc

[Lip Man 1]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

At a conference and a presentation on pitching analytics. What teams are doing with in the last couple years is crazy.

A couple of significant takeaways.

1. The data collected from start to start is really expanding. An example used was looking at the weather during a previous start and weight loss down to the ounce after showed issues. So the pitch count for the next game was decreased due to that extra stress and nutrition from the recovery. Pitch count is more than just gameday.

2. An issue with data and analytics is still that technology can't accurately measure pitching. The arm moves at 7000 degrees per second. Cameras and wearable just cant measure it accurately.

3. Best way to keep a pitcher deathly is to really train the body physically. This takes up to eight months. Only way to do this is they aren't pitching which pitchers cant do. Unless they are out due to an injury. Cited the way the White Sox rehabbed Crochet as the new way all organizations are approaching the pitxher body during.

4. During predraft camp, 95% showed rotator cuff pathology, 85% showed abnormalities in the UCL. Especially , pitchers from SEC and old PAC 10. Pitchers come to the MLB preinjured.

#4 makes a lot of sense, which is why I've always advocated that teams who draft pitchers with conditions that are going to eventually blow out should get the surgery to correct things immediately since it is going to happen sooner or later.

[ptatc]

6 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

#4 makes a lot of sense, which is why I've always advocated that teams who draft pitchers with conditions that are going to eventually blow out should get the surgery to correct things immediately since it is going to happen sooner or later.

The issue is it's almost all of them. Whether they actually missed time or not.

[WestEddy]

36 minutes ago, ptatc said:

3. Best way to keep a pitcher deathly is to really train the body physically. This takes up to eight months. Only way to do this is they aren't pitching which pitchers cant do. Unless they are out due to an injury. Cited the way the White Sox rehabbed Crochet as the new way all organizations are approaching the pitxher body during.

4. During predraft camp, 95% showed rotator cuff pathology, 85% showed abnormalities in the UCL. Especially , pitchers from SEC and old PAC 10. Pitchers come to the MLB preinjured.

I wonder if with a guy like Blake Larson, they saw the damage and drafted him knowing they could lose the time up front, then train him up, properly.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I read a long time ago that throwing a baseball over hand is basically an unnatural way to throw because it places way too much stress on joints and muscle as compared to throwing underhand. No doubt you can throw harder overhand  because you're using more muscles and joints fully. The lower your arm angle after a certain point like perhaps a 3/4 arm slot the less likely you are to break down the joints and muscles. The stress is less and MPH decrease. Do I have my facts straight ( in general)@ptatc? I guessed at the arm slot or arm angle where the stress load becomes less when you're be considered a side armer which is lower than the 3/4 arm slot.

I understand there are supinators and pronators  and pronators may have slighly less injury risk but that part of it with regards to pitch design are things even knowledgable fans rarely discuss. But I'm guessing Bannister and pitching analytics guys could go on at length about it. 

Edited February 13 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ptatc]

16 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I read a long time ago that throwing a baseball over hand is basically an unnatural way to throw because it places way too much stress on joints and muscle as compared to throwing underhand. No doubt you can throw harder overhand  because you're using more muscles and joints fully. The lower your arm angle after a certain point like perhaps a 3/4 arm slot the less likely you are to break down the joints and muscles. The stress is less and MPH decrease. Do I have my facts straight ( in general)@ptatc? I guessed at the arm slot or arm angle where the stress load becomes less when you're be considered a side armer which is lower than the 3/4 arm slot.

I understand there are supinators and pronators  and pronators may have slighly less injury risk but that part of it with regards to pitch design are things even knowledgable fans rarely discuss. But I'm guessing Bannister and pitching analytics guys could go on at length about it. 

The research shows that the lower the arm angle the greater stress on the elbow but decreased on the shoulder. Pitchers need to find a good sweet spot. There are other variables but that is fairly consent.

With the new mechanics pitchers are throwing with (more rotation) they can actually generate more forces and velocity with a lower arm angle. It s many more moving parts and more difficult to keep the force generating up the kinetic chain to achieve it though.

Supinators may have an advantage against elbow injuries because it tightens the supinator muscles so they take some stress from the UCL. However this means the muscles need to have enough force and endurance to do that otherwise it could be a disadvantage.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

The issue is it's almost all of them. Whether they actually missed time or not.

Then you have the medical team "rank" the injuries in order of the ones most likely to go sooner. Those get corrected via surgery first, then the next group and so on.

Not a perfect system but it would bring some order to the situation.  I'm guessing doctors can tell pretty well which guys have more severe issues as opposed to others. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

52 minutes ago, ptatc said:

 

3. Best way to keep a pitcher heathly is to really train the body physically. This takes up to eight months. Only way to do this is when they aren't pitching which pitchers cant do, unless they are out due to an injury. Cited the way the White Sox rehabbed Crochet as the new way all organizations are approaching the pitcher body during.

Hope you don't mind , I cleaned up a few things with point 3. Mainly changed deathly to healthy as I'm sure you intended . 

I'm very pleased with this development but Im not sure the anti Getz crowd will be though who never wanted to give Bannister in conjuction with the medical staff any credit with putting Crochet in the best position possible to come back stronger with the kind of training he had to do. 

I often said he came back much bigger and stronger and along with his body perhaps maturing physically while doing the training you are speaking about it enabled him to stay healthy and pitch  more innings than any of of thought. 

Im not saying it will work on everyone the way it did with Crochet. I just saw a much bigger guy and pointed it out that it probably went hand in hand with natural growth and work out and nutrition program that enabled him to reach a physical peak. 

After that it was Bannister and Katz tweaking his pitch mix to better get RHH out and becoming a more efficient pitcher. 

Every time I proposed that theory I got strong pushback from people who said it was all Crochet. Of course Crochet deserves a lot of credit. He listened to the medical people and his coaches and reached his upside. Huge  development win for the people Getz hired .

It's nice to see that the rest of baseball took notice of this and the Sox are at the forefront. 

It's a lot better than reading crazy made up Soxtalk theories that all the  TJ surgeries  could be Bannisters fault without so much as explaining why . Just a wild accusation based on nothing except a crazy thought in someones head looking to place blame. 

[ptatc]

10 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Then you have the medical team "rank" the injuries in order of the ones most likely to go sooner. Those get corrected via surgery first, then the next group and so on.

Not a perfect system but it would bring some order to the situation.  I'm guessing doctors can tell pretty well which guys have more severe issues as opposed to others. 

They are working on that. The issue is how do you rank a defect on the rotator cuff? Length, depth, thickness? Without actually opening them up its very difficult to do. Plus imaging is not necessarily correlated to performance. Some pitchers can just pitch with more issues than others. Thus missing time as an amateurhas to be a factor as well. Different organizations are working on different models. Hence the big increase on the analytics departments.

[ptatc]

40 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Hope you don't mind , I cleaned up a few things with point 3. Mainly changed deathly to healthy as I'm sure you intended . 

I'm very pleased with this development but Im not sure the anti Getz crowd will be though who never wanted to give Bannister in conjuction with the medical staff any credit with putting Crochet in the best position possible to come back stronger with the kind of training he had to do. 

I often said he came back much bigger and stronger and along with his body perhaps maturing physically while doing the training you are speaking about it enabled him to stay healthy and pitch  more innings than any of of thought. 

Im not saying it will work on everyone the way it did with Crochet. I just saw a much bigger guy and pointed it out that it probably went hand in hand with natural growth and work out and nutrition program that enabled him to reach a physical peak. 

After that it was Bannister and Katz tweaking his pitch mix to better get RHH out and becoming a more efficient pitcher. 

Every time I proposed that theory I got strong pushback from people who said it was all Crochet. Of course Crochet deserves a lot of credit. He listened to the medical people and his coaches and reached his upside. Huge  development win for the people Getz hired .

It's nice to see that the rest of baseball took notice of this and the Sox are at the forefront. 

It's a lot better than reading crazy made up Soxtalk theories that all the  TJ surgeries  could be Bannisters fault without so much as explaining why . Just a wild accusation based on nothing except a crazy thought in someones head looking to place blame. 

The innovative part for Crochet was the not focusing only on the injury rehab, it was the redirecting the workload and workload tolerance through the entire body. It wasn't the decrease workload, it was an increased workload to be able to tolerate more pitching. But have it individually directed to his imbalances.

I was one that thought they were crazy to increase his workload from one year to the next, until I saw the protocol they had for him. Of course he had to buy in but it was an innovative protocol by medical and conditioning standards.

Bannister does like "funky deliveries." This could lead to higher injuries. But its not anything they do to the pitcher, its the pitchers they like. If they cant pay for velocity like other, the funky pitch shapes and tunnels can be another approach.

Edited February 13 by ptatc

[bmags]

Given the point on crochet…

that first year post draft seems like a great opportunity to mature their bodies for the load (rather than pure pitch count).

for HS draftees I’m guessing their bodies aren’t quite yet at point they get same benefit?

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Given the point on crochet…

that first year post draft seems like a great opportunity to mature their bodies for the load (rather than pure pitch count).

for HS draftees I’m guessing their bodies aren’t quite yet at point they get same benefit?

It makes sense. The plus/minus is that would taking a year off hurt their development as a pitcher? Teams having bought into the decreased pitching for that length of time. They are coming around to the idea of changing the rehab. Part of the reason for a lengthening of the time before players return from UCL reconstruction. Im really interested to see what Thorpe and Adams look like when they return.

[Lip Man 1]

7 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It makes sense. The plus/minus is that would taking a year off hurt their development as a pitcher? Teams having bought into the decreased pitching for that length of time. They are coming around to the idea of changing the rehab. Part of the reason for a lengthening of the time before players return from UCL reconstruction. Im really interested to see what Thorpe and Adams look like when they return.

Given Thorpe's issues the better comment may be IF he returns.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Given Thorpe's issues the better comment may be IF he returns.

We get about 89% back to prior level or better so odds are he will. There's always the 11% though. Hence interested to see how they look. 

He will return to pitching. Just depends what it looks like.

[BamaDoc]

For pitchers, if drafted/signed by July, it is 7 1/2 months until spring training.  Granted pitchers are throwing to get ready for spring training but I wonder, especially for college pitchers, if that is why many don't pitch in the year drafted?  Perhaps some teams are focusing more on the strength/mechanical side of things.

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, BamaDoc said:

For pitchers, if drafted/signed by July, it is 7 1/2 months until spring training.  Granted pitchers are throwing to get ready for spring training but I wonder, especially for college pitchers, if that is why many don't pitch in the year drafted?  Perhaps some teams are focusing more on the strength/mechanical side of things.

It woild be good if we could get them to do that. Im sure the medical staffs are working on it.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 hours ago, ptatc said:

It makes sense. The plus/minus is that would taking a year off hurt their development as a pitcher? Teams having bought into the decreased pitching for that length of time. They are coming around to the idea of changing the rehab. Part of the reason for a lengthening of the time before players return from UCL reconstruction. Im really interested to see what Thorpe and Adams look like when they return.

I just watched the Garfien interview with Tanner McDougal heard him say that he viewed TJ surgery as a blessing in disguise . 

He talks about the time off allowing him to not only grow into his body  to also how the rehab got him into healthy routines  that made him realize at this level you can't just roll out of bed and succeed. You have to be a professional.

So  I previously talked about Crochet physically maturing along with the whole rehab process turning him into a beast is how McDougal explained  having a great 2025 . 

I don't know what McDougal weighs now but he looks quite a bit heavier than the 185 he said he was .

 

[ptatc]

55 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I just watched the Garfien interview with Tanner McDougal heard him say that he viewed TJ surgery as a blessing in disguise . 

He talks about the time off allowing him to not only grow into his body  to also how the rehab got him into healthy routines  that made him realize at this level you can't just roll out of bed and succeed. You have to be a professional.

So  I previously talked about Crochet physically maturing along with the whole rehab process turning him into a beast is how McDougal explained  having a great 2025 . 

I don't know what McDougal weighs now but he looks quite a bit heavier than the 185 he said he was .

 

Crochet is a few years older than McDougal, particularly when they had surgery. It was more training than maturity for Crochet.

[nrockway]

6 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I just watched the Garfien interview with Tanner McDougal heard him say that he viewed TJ surgery as a blessing in disguise . 

He talks about the time off allowing him to not only grow into his body  to also how the rehab got him into healthy routines  that made him realize at this level you can't just roll out of bed and succeed. You have to be a professional.

So  I previously talked about Crochet physically maturing along with the whole rehab process turning him into a beast is how McDougal explained  having a great 2025 . 

I don't know what McDougal weighs now but he looks quite a bit heavier than the 185 he said he was .

 

our boy likes malort...but why did he call it "bottom shelf"

 

also, off topic, any idea if that hat McDougal is wearing is for sale anywhere? probably the coolest Sox hat I've seen.

Edited February 14 by nrockway

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, nrockway said:

our boy likes malort...but why did he call it "bottom shelf"

 

also, off topic, any idea if that hat McDougal is wearing is for sale anywhere? probably the coolest Sox hat I've seen.

That's this years ST cap with Cactus flowers. All cactus league teams have the same design. Anywhete that usuall carries spring training caps may have them soon if not already.