SoxAce Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Garland has given up 11 homers in his last 5 starts.. Ouch! If he's a sinker ball pitcher, his ass should learn how to keep the ball down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Zack greinke. Your kidding me right? That's not even fair to even list a 20 year old who just got to the show not too long ago. He'll be damn near better than any of those other guys, plus more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Brett myers. Adam eaton. Jake peavy. Zack greinke. Brandon webb. Are only several, i can name a bunch more if you would like that are the same if not better. Jake Peavy = Most underrated young pitcher in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Your kidding me right? That's not even fair to even list a 20 year old who just got to the show not too long ago. He'll be damn near better than any of those other guys, plus more. Jake peavy is not to bad himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Jake peavy is not to bad himself. Yea I saw DBAH0's post, and he is very underrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Brett myers. Adam eaton. Jake peavy. Zack greinke. Brandon webb. Are only several, i can name a bunch more if you would like that are the same if not better. And how many of those guys are on the trading block? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Another good one is horacio ramirez. He was great until he want on the dl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 And how many of those guys are on the trading block? Out of them and the other 10-15 i can mention probally 12-14 of them if they could get soriano. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Out of them and the other 10-15 i can mention probally 12-14 of them if they could get soriano. Using your logic, we should have won the past couple of years. I mean - it's all about the longball, baby... Defense isn't important, nor is pitching - but chicks dig the longball... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Using your logic, we should have won the past couple of years. I mean - it's all about the longball, baby... Defense isn't important, nor is pitching - but chicks dig the longball... I am not really even for soriano so i do not know what your talking about. He is not a drastic upgrade over uribe. He is better but i look at obp and his career obp is .322 valentin's is .321. Not really the type of player that makes a huge impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 I am not really even for soriano so i do not know what your talking about. He is not a drastic upgrade over uribe. He is better but i look at obp and his career obp is .322 valentin's is .321. Not really the type of player that makes a huge impact. Yet you advocate this trade? I don't know, I'm just a little lost here. You don't like Diaz as a viable option for a fifth starter's spot this year, yet you want to trade Garland? I can see this team going out and spending money on ONE starting pitcher - two - ehh, that's iffy. There are more holes to be filled besides starting pitching. I just don't see how Soriano improves this team... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Yet you advocate this trade? I don't know, I'm just a little lost here. You don't like Diaz as a viable option for a fifth starter's spot this year, yet you want to trade Garland? I can see this team going out and spending money on ONE starting pitcher - two - ehh, that's iffy. There are more holes to be filled besides starting pitching. I just don't see how Soriano improves this team... I believe someone said ""He deserves a shot at #5 next year if he keeps pitching like he did today."" And i said if he is are fifth starter next year. :puke because that will mean we have not signed anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Let me give you the stats of a (for right now) nameless pitcher. He started pitching when he was 22. He is 28 right now - here are his stats through then: 134 IP, 4.21 ERA 104 IP, 5.63 ERA 97 IP, 3.06 ERA 42 IP, 6.33 ERA 61 IP, 3.79 ERA 74 IP, 6.30 ERA 201 IP, 4.30 ERA 186 (So far) IP, 3.09 ERA People are talking about giving this pitcher anywhere from 8-11 million next season. If you haven't figured it out, it's Carl Pavano. Man - are his stats inconsistent or what. So, at the same age, Pavano had hit both ends of the spectrum, an excellent 3.06 ERA, yet a poor 6.33 ERA. With Garland, we know the worst from him - a smidge under a 5.00 ERA. Yet - do we know his best? If I have a fifth starter - and I know that during the season, he's going to do two things for me: log a lot of innings (Jon is on a pace to log 200+ this year), and give me a sub-five ERA - then wow, that's pretty good. Now - factor in that most of us think that we really haven't seen Jon's best season yet - and that's just gravy. You guys want to trade Garland for Soriano? Fine. And then next year, we'll go through the same carrasell (sp?) of fifth starters like we've done the past four years. If we sign a Matt Clement/Odalis Perez/Carl Pavano - we'll finally have five guys who have can eat up 1000+ innings, plus at least four out of the five providing sub - 4.50 ERAs. Why not go into next season with ZERO question marks in the most important aspect of baseball - pitching? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Let me give you the stats of a (for right now) nameless pitcher. He started pitching when he was 22. He is 28 right now - here are his stats through then: 134 IP, 4.21 ERA 104 IP, 5.63 ERA 97 IP, 3.06 ERA 42 IP, 6.33 ERA 61 IP, 3.79 ERA 74 IP, 6.30 ERA 201 IP, 4.30 ERA 186 (So far) IP, 3.09 ERA People are talking about giving this pitcher anywhere from 8-11 million next season. If you haven't figured it out, it's Carl Pavano. Man - are his stats inconsistent or what. So, at the same age, Pavano had hit both ends of the spectrum, an excellent 3.06 ERA, yet a poor 6.33 ERA. With Garland, we know the worst from him - a smidge under a 5.00 ERA. Yet - do we know his best? If I have a fifth starter - and I know that during the season, he's going to do two things for me: log a lot of innings (Jon is on a pace to log 200+ this year), and give me a sub-five ERA - then wow, that's pretty good. Now - factor in that most of us think that we really haven't seen Jon's best season yet - and that's just gravy. You guys want to trade Garland for Soriano? Fine. And then next year, we'll go through the same carrasell (sp?) of fifth starters like we've done the past four years. If we sign a Matt Clement/Odalis Perez/Carl Pavano - we'll finally have five guys who have can eat up 1000+ innings, plus at least four out of the five providing sub - 4.50 ERAs. Why not go into next season with ZERO question marks in the most important aspect of baseball - pitching? His best season he pitched roughly 120 innings. If he would have pitched another 60-80 his era would have most likely been in the mid fours. I would not mind him as a fifth stater if he was not a whiny little b****. But as a fourth starter he does not tickle my fancy. Have also not been a big supporter of getting pavano, beltre either. I think they are just exploding in their contract years and will slip back to mediocracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 His best season he pitched roughly 120 innings. If he would have pitched another 60-80 his era would have most likely been in the mid fours. I would not mind him as a fifth stater if he was not a whiny little b****. But as a fourth starter he does not tickle my fancy. But - this is my last post, at least for tonight - he'll be a fifth next year. That's what I'm trying to tell you. This team is going out, via free agency, via trade, whatever - and pick up a pitcher, most likely a number two or a number three. Yet - they most likely aren't going to go and pick up two starters. That's why I want to keep Jon, and go into the season without a question mark at the fifth starter spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 But - this is my last post, at least for tonight - he'll be a fifth next year. That's what I'm trying to tell you. This team is going out, via free agency, via trade, whatever - and pick up a pitcher, most likely a number two or a number three. Yet - they most likely aren't going to go and pick up two starters. That's why I want to keep Jon, and go into the season without a question mark at the fifth starter spot. Honestly, the main reason i want him out if here is because he does not go about the game the right way. Pisses me off so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 It's tougher than it actually looks but I'll still take Soriano. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 I think there is one major difference between Garland and Pavano early in their career. Pavano was on and off due in large part to various injuries. Anytime he started to get something going he was out for the year and it took him a while to get back in the groove. Garland has not had any major injuries and has had several years to prove his worth, he just hasn't made any major strides. It's still a bit risky to deal a young starter, but if you can get something that will help, do it. I still think Soriano is an upgrade over Valentin since he has shown more power and speed, but I would like to see who else we could get for Jon. If he has that much value, he can net us a lot more than I would have thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Question.. was Pavano a first round pick when he was drafted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Drafted by the Boston Red Sox in the 13th round of the 1994 amateur draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Thanx Cheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Alfonso Soriano...former all-star, great offensive player. Jon Garland...wash out!!! I don't see how this decision is difficult. Gimme Soriano! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Eh....I'm going to stay on the Garland wagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 .280-24-81 vs. 10-10, 1.36 WHIP, 4.92 ERA Wow, that's really tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBetsy Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 .280-24-81 vs. 10-10, 1.36 WHIP, 4.92 ERA Wow, that's really tough. Ugh. It's not .280-24-81. It's .279/.322/.472. Compare that to Juan Uribe at .271/.318/.491. Roughly speaking, Juan Uribe has hit as well as Alfonso Soriano has. Don't let the 81 RBI fool you - If Soriano had the same number of at-bats as Uribe (428), he'd have 62 RBI...almost exactly the same as Uribe. So why is he worth soaking up $6-8 million per year that can be spent on pitching when we already have him on our team? I'm also convinced that Uribe is going to get BETTER rather than worse over the next few years: Walk rate: 2001 8 BB 273 AB - .029 BB/AB 2002 34 BB 566 AB - .060 BB/AB 2003 17 BB 316 AB - .054 BB/AB 2004 29 BB 428 AB - .067 BB/AB He's getting a better eye as the years improve. If he can hit .275 with a .335 OBP, he'll be a relatively valuable player. I like Juan, and especially if he costs $1 million/year like he should for the next couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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