CWSGuy406 Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 If I were to tell you guys, that a teams with rotations of - Mulder, Zito, Hudson, Harden (His best year), Redmond, and Prior, Wood, Maddux, Zambrano, and Clement - and neither team would make the playoffs, I doubt a lot of you would believe me. (OK - so that was a cheezy opening. ) But anyways - what have both of these teams taught me? That having solid rotations is not more important than having a solid bullpen. We have four starters, right now, that can keep us close - go out, get that fifth guy (Odalis Perez should be targetted - probably the third ranked SP on the market this offseason, with arguably the best numbers) - but really, a *playoff caliber* team should have three-four guys who you can rely on late in a game. We're halfway there - with Shingo and Marte (I'll give Marte a pass this year, considering his numbers are still pretty solid, and that he was, IMHO, overworked). Now - we need two more pitchers in the bullpen - two reliable relievers. We don't know what Shingo will do in year two if his stay in America, but I think he can at least provide us with a sub-four ERA. I believe that if we do trade Konerko, one of the people we should be targetting as a return is a very, very good reliever. Mota would be an excellent pickup. I also think some guys under the radar, like Juan Cruz - someone like him - would also be a good pickup. It's easier said than done, but we need at least four guys who we can rely on from the sixth-seventh inning on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 I have felt that way all along. You look at Minnesota, and yeah, they have a solid rotation, including the to be-Cy Young winner, but what really put them over the top was that bullpen. Romero has struggled some down the stretch, but they have had 3 very solid relievers all year long, plus Rincon and Nathan are for-sure pitchers who they know they can put out there and will get outs. The one thing almost every playoff team so far has in common is a great bullpen. LA, St. Louis, Boston, Minnesota, Anaheim...those 5 teams have quality pens, plus New York, Atlanta, Houston and San Francisco's are not too bad. The team's that have bad bullpens...the Cubs, Marlins, A's...they choked. Period. I would rather see the Sox bring in 3 very solid relievers rather then bring in 1 great starter...honest to God. Problem with that is that the relievers available this offseason is very weak. That could present a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Oakland's rotation was far from solid in september... The Cubs problem was the same as ours has been in the past few seasons, heavy with right handed low OBP hitters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Just imagine if the expos had some offense. They have as good of a bullpen as anyone. Also if their starting rotation is healthy it is damn good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Both the A's and Cubs starting rotations had to deal with injuries. Injury free years with those starting rotations and they make the playoffs easy. Starting pitching is everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetsTalkSox Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 The A's faultered cause their ace Mulder was brutal in Sept. Don't look now but, Bartolo Colon has made one helluva turnaround. I'm interested to see what he does in the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 The A's faultered cause their ace Mulder was brutal in Sept. Don't look now but, Bartolo Colon has made one helluva turnaround. I'm interested to see what he does in the playoffs. Yeah his 5+ ERA is amazing!!!! Hes gotten great run support, otherwise he wouldnt have so many wins.. but you are right, he did pitch a lot better after the break Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 I'll almost always take a starter before a reliever. But our pitching has been so bad this year, we really need help on both counts. The Red Sox bullpen will provide a bunch of fas -- including Williamson, although noone knows how much he'll pitch next year, if at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Both the A's and Cubs starting rotations had to deal with injuries. Injury free years with those starting rotations and they make the playoffs easy. Starting pitching is everything. Wow, you're on a roll. No, the first two posters in this thread are dead on. You need a bullpen if you hope to win anything in this league. Name me one team that won a world series in the last 20 years that did not have one. I put together team sets for all world series teams since the early eighties because I have a s***load of baseball cards. Just a few that I'm looking at right now: 84 Tigers: Willie Hernandez, Aurelio Lopez, Doug Bair, etc 86 Mets: Jesse Orosco, Roger McDowell, Randy Myers, Terry Leach, etc 90 Athletics: Dennis Eckersley, Rick Honeycutt, Gene Nelson, Jim Corsi 91 Reds: Randy Myers, Norm Charlton, Rob Dibble, etc I'll let y'all fill in the blanks. All you need is a little common sense here, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted October 3, 2004 Author Share Posted October 3, 2004 Both the A's and Cubs starting rotations had to deal with injuries. Injury free years with those starting rotations and they make the playoffs easy. Starting pitching is everything. Both teams were healthy down the stretch when it counted. What killed them? Poor bullpens... So no, starting pitching isn't everything, buddy... :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Both teams were healthy down the stretch when it counted. What killed them? Poor bullpens... So no, starting pitching isn't everything, buddy... :rolly It's amazing, because all I hear on the radio these days are Cubs fans talking about how they'd be at least 10 games better in the standings if they had a legitimate closer, and had Hawkins in his rightful role -- setup mang. 10 games sounds like a drastic swing to me....let's just say 4 to 5 games better. That would have been enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Both teams were healthy down the stretch when it counted. What killed them? Poor bullpens... So no, starting pitching isn't everything, buddy... :rolly Ha ha, thanks for the laugh. I guess the middle of the season doesn't count? Just 'down the stretch'. How are those games more important? You had injuries to aces on your staff (Cubs-Prior, A's-Hudson). No matter which point in the season it happens, you still lose games. Beginning, middle, end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Mota would be nice in the bullpen. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Name me one team that won a world series in the last 20 years that did not have one. Thanks, this helps make my point clearer. You missed the most recent example. The 2003 Marlins had a s***ty bullpen at best. They just won games by cycling their STARTING ROTATION in most of the playoff games. They used Pavano, Penny, and Willis out of the pen. But you're right, having Nate Bump, Chad Fox, Rick Helling, and Michael Tejera is what really sealed it. Here's how their bullpen fared in the playoffs. Braden Looper - 9.82 ERA Ugueth Urbina - 6.00 ERA Chad Fox - 6.00 ERA Rick Helling - 6.75 ERA Miguel Tejera - 6.75 ERA Guess you forgot to fill in the 2003 blank with your collection of Topps classics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 I'd rather improve on the bullpen than the starting pitching but it's not like the starting pitching is perfect either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 I tend to agree that sp is more important in the playoffs, when you can use guys (not named Pedro) on short rest, and use other starters in the pen. But the bullpen is very important in the regular season, when you can't use your starters as heavily. And Looper, Urbina, Fox were all very good in the regular season. Not that a good starter isn't more important than a good reliever. But two good relievers may be as important as a good starter. (As long as you don't have an abyss at the 5th starter spot...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted October 3, 2004 Author Share Posted October 3, 2004 Ha ha, thanks for the laugh. I guess the middle of the season doesn't count? Just 'down the stretch'. How are those games more important? You had injuries to aces on your staff (Cubs-Prior, A's-Hudson). No matter which point in the season it happens, you still lose games. Beginning, middle, end. And the guy who filled in for the Cubs rotation - Glendon Rusch - was damn good as well. It's not like he pitched piss poorly - in fact, he was very good in the rotation. If we got Mota and another reliever - that would save a lot more games than just getting one more pitcher, IMHO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 didnt the diamondbacks just win a world series recently without a good bullpen..... a bullpen is important but the starting rotation is more... i much rather have us pick of les say a guy like odalis perez then any RP out there.... there really is only 2 guys i value as much as SP and that would be gagne and rivera just because they are so good its hard to pass on them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted October 3, 2004 Author Share Posted October 3, 2004 didnt the diamondbacks just win a world series recently without a good bullpen..... a bullpen is important but the starting rotation is more... i much rather have us pick of les say a guy like odalis perez then any RP out there.... there really is only 2 guys i value as much as SP and that would be gagne and rivera just because they are so good its hard to pass on them True, but not a lot of teams have two pitchers that are that dominant. Of course - if you have pitchers the caliber of Johnson and Schilling, your bullpen won't mean too much. But for the norm is that you don't have TWO of those pitchers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Guess how many playoff series the Oakland A's have won in the Hudson-Mulder-Zito era. Do I here a none somewhere? Starting pitching obviously isn't everything even in the playoffs, otherwise these guys would have at least one ring. The common denominator during this run is that they have never had a closer stick around for several years, and the only good one they've had for a while was Keith Foulke for one year(got a miracle season from Koch, but was not as good as his saves total). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Thanks, this helps make my point clearer. You missed the most recent example. The 2003 Marlins had a s***ty bullpen at best. They just won games by cycling their STARTING ROTATION in most of the playoff games. They used Pavano, Penny, and Willis out of the pen. But you're right, having Nate Bump, Chad Fox, Rick Helling, and Michael Tejera is what really sealed it. Here's how their bullpen fared in the playoffs. Braden Looper - 9.82 ERA Ugueth Urbina - 6.00 ERA Chad Fox - 6.00 ERA Rick Helling - 6.75 ERA Miguel Tejera - 6.75 ERA Guess you forgot to fill in the 2003 blank with your collection of Topps classics! You completely missed the point. You don't have to be a baseball historian to understand that, in the vast majority of cases, a world series winner will have a strong bullpen. It's all right there for ya...do some freaking homework for Christ's sake. :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 didnt the diamondbacks just win a world series recently without a good bullpen..... Who cares? Do us all a favor and go research the last 25 world series champions. If you're going to do something, you might as well do it right. Otherwise, I know of another team in this city that you should probably go root for, because Sox fans are supposed to be smart. That is our reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Name me one team that won a world series in the last 20 years that did not have one. Remember that? I'm simply complying. You wanted one, I gave you one. Since that's not enough, I'll give you more. 2003 Florida Marlins 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks 2000 New York Yankees 1999 New York Yankees 1998 New York Yankees 1997 Florida Marlins 1996 New York Yankees 1991 Minnesota Twins *NOT the 1988 LA Dodgers, that staff was bad-ass! 1987 Minnesota Twins ...And then you start getting into an era where bullpens were hardly a factor. Starting pitching dominated most games, and each starter ate up so many innings. Relievers barely threw in the playoffs! Now I've given you plenty of examples. Not every World Series winner has a lights out bullpen. They don't even have to be great. Just decent. Starters dominate the amount of innings pitched in the postseason for a reason. They are more important to a team's success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Remember that? I'm simply complying. You wanted one, I gave you one. Since that's not enough, I'll give you more. 2003 Florida Marlins 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks 2000 New York Yankees 1999 New York Yankees 1998 New York Yankees 1997 Florida Marlins 1996 New York Yankees 1991 Minnesota Twins *NOT the 1988 LA Dodgers, that staff was bad-ass! 1987 Minnesota Twins ...And then you start getting into an era where bullpens were hardly a factor. Starting pitching dominated most games, and each starter ate up so many innings. Relievers barely threw in the playoffs! Now I've given you plenty of examples. Not every World Series winner has a lights out bullpen. They don't even have to be great. Just decent. Starters dominate the amount of innings pitched in the postseason for a reason. They are more important to a team's success. Dude...all of those teams had good bullpens other than Florida and Arizona. Especially all of those Yankees teams...I got names like Rivera, Mendoza, Stanton, and Nelson on my dome right about now. Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Dude...all of those teams had good bullpens other than Florida and Arizona. Especially all of those Yankees teams...I got names like Rivera, Mendoza, Stanton, and Nelson on my dome right about now. Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about. well all you asked for 1 and we gave you 2 arizona and the marlins and both were recent... and then calling me dumb because i answered your question, maybe you need to root for the other chicago team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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