Vizquel to Sox-2 years, 8 mil?

[Rex Hudler]

I've heard that Guillen is not willing to rely on Uribe to be the everyday ss.  But he seems willing to let him be the everyday 2b.  Isn't his defense good enough to be the ss?  Other than that, I don't see the difference, everyone hits.  It feels like this team tries to train its players w/ some half-speed ML seasons, for Rowand and Willie, eg, and maybe now Uribe (though not Crede), and I don't understand that practice.  Once they're ready for the ML, throw them in the fire and see what they've got.

Ozzie played SS for a long time....... I'd trust his judgement on whether someone can handle SS everyday.

[chisox05]

I wouldn't mind Nomar on a one year deal, although a lot of teams would be interested in him too. Kenny has watned him for a year so it wouldn't shock me to see the Sox at least inquire. If we could get him at 7-8 for a one year, I wouldn't hesitate. I, however, assume that he will come in at 10 though.

Kenny could be targeting garpar.

 

I mean, he did trade maggs for nomar last offseason.....kindve.....

 

 

I am looking for the odalis perez, nomar garciaparra and all the other rumored players the sox could potentially get last offseason to be targeted be kenny this offseason.

[Butter Parque]

I'd take Cabrera to be my 2-hole hitter and play SS anyday.

[chisox05]

Since your only 14, there is no need to rip into you, but you got alot to learn. :headshake

I have a lot to learn!!!!!

 

HA!

 

I apologize for saying that trying to take out a rival's catcher is a good thing!

 

We need that attitude on our ballclub, it often brings teams together(ala 2000 chisox-tigers fight although a little different situation)

 

 

We have too many guys that dont care(garland,lee and many more)

 

 

I think you have a lot to learn man.

[CWSGuy406]

I have a lot to learn!!!!!

 

HA!

 

I apologize for saying that trying to take out a rival's catcher is a good thing!

 

We need that attitude on our ballclub, it often brings teams together(ala 2000 chisox-tigers fight although a little different situation)

 

 

We have too many guys that dont care(garland,lee and many more)

 

 

I think you have a lot to learn man.

A team gelling together because of a fight is a lot different than one guy intentionally going out and hurting a guy purposely...

[witesoxfan]

I have a lot to learn!!!!!

 

HA!

 

I apologize for saying that trying to take out a rival's catcher is a good thing!

 

We need that attitude on our ballclub, it often brings teams together(ala 2000 chisox-tigers fight although a little different situation)

 

 

We have too many guys that dont care(garland,lee and many more)

 

 

I think you have a lot to learn man.

Lee and Garland do actually care about winning. Lee wouldn't have tried to improve his all-around game this much if he didn't care, and Garland is just not good and is very calm about whatever he does.

 

Backing up your teammates and having a fight like that is completely different then taking a cheap shot at the opponent. Cheap shots are BS and are low blows. What should have been done was for Jackson to hit Hunter in the 9th...he pussed out, and killed any life the Sox had in them. That's completely clean. What Mike Jackson said by not hitting Torii Hunter was that he didn't give a s*** if the other team ran over Burke, and that's not the message you want to tell to a team, especially when you are one of the leaders. Those 2 may be friends, but you gotta stick up for YOUR team in that situation.

 

But as has been said...barrelling over the opponent's catcher like Hunter did is bush. You don't do that, unless you want a fastball in your earhole, or if you know the other team won't do anything to retaliate.

[chisox05]

Lee and Garland do actually care about winning.  Lee wouldn't have tried to improve his all-around game this much if he didn't care, and Garland is just not good and is very calm about whatever he does.

Garland certaintly isnt calm when talking to the media and has made many references that he "doesnt care" about getting booed off the field etc.

 

First of all, the only part lee improved was defense. He still is lazy and doesnt run hard to first base or even run hard to balls hit to him in the outfield for that matter. And in these days, improving your all around game ,which btw lee hasnt done, for by a vast majority of players is to increase their chances of getting a better contract in the future.

[CWSGuy406]

First of all, the only part lee improved was defense.  He still is lazy and doesnt run hard to first base or even run hard to balls hit to him in the outfield for that matter.  And in these days, improving your all around game ,which btw lee hasnt done, for by a vast majority of players is to increase their chances of getting a better contract in the future.

Not true at all. While he has his mental lapses, no one on this team outside of Aaron Rowand goes harder into second base than Carlos Lee.

 

Secondly, you say that he's 'lazy' in getting to balls hit in the outfield, yet he was in the top of the league for left fielders in range factor and zone rating. So, that isn't true either.

 

Finally, Lee has shown us all aspects of his game. He just has to put it all together for one season, which, IMHO, and the opinion of many others, he's ready to do. He's shown us the ability to draw walks (2002 second half, a ton of walks), he's shown the ability to flat out hit the ball (27 game hit streak), and he's shown the ability to pop the ball out of the yard (30+ homers each of the last two seasons).

 

So, to say that he's lazy, or that he hasn't improved his all-around game, is complete and utter bulls***.

[witesoxfan]

Garland certaintly isnt calm when talking to the media and has made many references that he "doesnt care" about getting booed off the field etc.

 

First of all, the only part lee improved was defense.  He still is lazy and doesnt run hard to first base or even run hard to balls hit to him in the outfield for that matter.  And in these days, improving your all around game ,which btw lee hasnt done, for by a vast majority of players is to increase their chances of getting a better contract in the future.

Not caring about getting booed off the field is different then not caring about winning. I am not a MLB pitcher, so I can't comment for sure...but I do not think I'd care if I got booed off the field. I think I would care that I pitched poorly, and them booing me would have no effect on me at all(which is exactly what not caring is).

 

Defense is the only part of Lee's game that improved? In 2004, he had his highest average ever, his highest OBP ever, his highest SLG% ever(so therefore, he had his highest OPS ever too), he had his second highest total of walks in a season(52, second to the 75 he had in 2002), he scored 100 runs for the second straight year and 3rd time in his career, had 180 hits for the second straight year, had 31 homers for the second straight year, and fell 1 RBI short of having 100 RBI for 2 straight years.

 

Carlos continues to get better and better. I see no reason why that would stop next year.

 

To say Carlos does not care is assinine. He gets lackadazical at times, he is stupid at times, and his baseball instincts are a bit off...but he busts his ass all the time(with the occassional slip up while staring down a homer that is actually not a homer but is instead a double which is turned into a single because Carlos doesn't run) and has improved to the point where he is the best player on the Sox.

[Queen Prawn]

I don't have the time to read through this thread (gotta take my car for an oil change), but what the hell. The Mariners wouldn't even take this guy, why the hell are we?! Can we just try going young instead of getting the Indians' castoffs?!

[SuperSteve]

I don't have the time to read through this thread (gotta take my car for an oil change), but what the hell.  The Mariners wouldn't even take this guy, why the hell are we?!  Can we just try going young instead of getting the Indians' castoffs?!

They were going to, Guillen for Visquel or along the lines, but Omar failed his physical IIRC.

[Queen Prawn]

They were going to, Guillen for Visquel or along the lines, but Omar failed his physical IIRC.

Yeah, I remember. When it didn't go through, Brian was doing the happy dance of joy (Brain = Mariners fan).

[SuperSteve]

Yeah, I remember.  When it didn't go through, Brian was doing the happy dance of joy (Brain = Mariners fan).

I'd be too. I have kind of soured on him getting as much as $4 million for two year.

[redandwhite]

Hit .275 or better in 3 of his last 4 full seasons, career .275 hitter

 

Yep, all signs indicate he is a .250 hitter  :rolly

 

I also see Cabrera getting probably 4 years in FA, and Garciaparra will cost more then $7 mill on the open market with the Cubs looking at resigning him and both LA and Anaheim having interest in all likelyhood.  I see him getting $8-10 mill.  The Sox do not want a lot of strings attached to the FA they sign, and they do not want them to be extra spendy.  They also want a guy who can provide a little leadership, regardless of how much stock you put into intangibles...SS is the position they've gotten leadership from before in the past, and they will lose it.

 

I don't buy leadership like that, but Vizquel's older and knows his way around the block...he'll help the kids on the team.  That's not worth anymore money or is not a reason to sign him...it's just an incentive in signing him.

 

The Sox future SS is playing 2B for the next 2 years(assuming Vizquel does ink with the Sox), and their potential future 2Bman(if he could ever figure out LHP) could be riding the pine this year after a decent first full year in the bigs.

 

I think the only other guy they would have potential interest in is Larkin, and I just don't think they like him as much because they didnt see him killing the Sox the past 10 years or so.

Okay Einstien. Is there only a right and a wrong with you? Orlando Cabrera is a player made for certain parks, one of them being US Cellular Field. He is just as much of a leader as Vizquel is.

 

All I am saying is this. If the White Sox are going to pay four million dollars for Vizquel, which I hope we can both agree on is overpaying, why not go the extra mile and lock up Cabrera for six over three.

 

They have the Venezualan/Columbian connection, the guys a gap machine, and just as much of a leader as anyone in this league.

 

EDITED for your satisfaction.

[CWSGuy406]

Okay Einstien.  Is there only a right and a wrong with you?  Orlando Cabrera is a player made for certain parks, one of them being US Cellular Field.  He is just as much of a leader as Vizquel is, accept he's three times the hitter and twice the fielder.

 

All I am saying is this.  If the White Sox are going to pay four million dollars for Vizquel, which I hope we can both agree on is overpaying, why not go the extra mile and lock up Cabrera for six over three.

 

They have the Venezualan/Columbian connection, the guys a gap machine, and just as much of a leader as anyone in this league.

I assume Cabrera showed these 'leadership' skills in throwing an elbow at Renteria in Game One of the ALCS...? :rolly

 

Saying Cabrera is as much of a leader as Vizquel is pretty silly, to say the least... JMHO.

 

EDIT: And offensively, how can you call Cabrera "three times the hitter" Vizquel is? Cabrera has only had one year with a respectable OBP (.347 in '03, most other times 20+ points less than that, if not more), and only twice in his career has he hit above .290.

 

While Vizquel in not the man he once was with the stick, he still is able to draw his share of walks (leading to a much higher OBP than Cabrera -- putting it another way, if Vizquel were to have a bad year OBP-wise -- .320 or so -- that's where Cabrera is normally at). Plus, Vizquel is able to do all the little things right, which is exactly what this team needs...

 

And if you're going to argue against stats, it's pointless in even having a discussion with you.

[redandwhite]

I assume Cabrera showed these 'leadership' skills in throwing an elbow at Renteria in Game One of the ALCS...?  :rolly

 

Saying Cabrera is as much of a leader as Vizquel is pretty silly, to say the least...  JMHO.

 

EDIT:  And offensively, how can you call Cabrera "three times the hitter" Vizquel is?  Cabrera has only had one year with a respectable OBP (.347 in '03, most other times 20+ points less than that, if not more), and only twice in his career has he hit above .290.

 

While Vizquel in not the man he once was with the stick, he still is able to draw his share of walks (leading to a much higher OBP than Cabrera -- putting it another way, if Vizquel were to have a bad year OBP-wise -- .320 or so -- that's where Cabrera is normally at).  Plus, Vizquel is able to do all the little things right, which is exactly what this team needs...

 

And if you're going to argue against stats, it's pointless in even having a discussion with you.

buying into Tim McCarvers and Joe Bucks s*** are we. Come on. Also, the three times this and double this is just an in post exaggeration, I apologize for not editing/clarifying.

 

The fact of the matter is that Orlando Cabrera is a better player than Omar Vizquel and is worth an extra year and an extra couple million dollars.

[CWSGuy406]

The fact of the matter is that Orlando Cabrera is a better player than Omar Vizquel and is worth an extra year and an extra couple million dollars.

How is he a better player?

 

His mediocre OBP compared to Vizquel's (.316 career to .341 career)...?

 

Or is it Cabrera's gold glove caliber skills at shortstop that make him the better player (even though Cabrera only ranks better than Vizquel in RF, Vizquel with the better F% and ZR)...?

 

Or is it Cabrera's "uncanny" leadership skills that make him better than Vizquel? :rolly

[WHarris1]

On the Vizquel note...

Bruce Levine was on ESPN1000 last night and he said this thing is a done deal.

[redandwhite]

How is he a better player?

 

His mediocre OBP compared to Vizquel's (.316 career to .341 career)...?

 

Or is it Cabrera's gold glove caliber skills at shortstop that make him the better player (even though Cabrera only ranks better than Vizquel in RF, Vizquel with the better F% and ZR)...?

 

Or is it Cabrera's "uncanny" leadership skills that make him better than Vizquel?  :rolly

Oh please, don't get me started with zone rating and meaningless statistics like that. Orlando Cabrera and Omar Vizquel are different types of players. Orlando Cabrera is a gap machine, and someone who has 20 home run power in a park like US Cellular field. He is not an on base percentage guy. Omar Vizquel although declining is still an excellent two hole hitter who has all the intangibles down to a science.

 

I'll say what I've said multiple times. For an extra two million dollars a year, if you have a chance to get a guy like Orlando Cabrera you go and get him.

 

I want a team that is fielded for the park they play in. Orlando Cabrera fits that mold.

[redandwhite]

On the Vizquel note...

Bruce Levine was on ESPN1000 last night and he said this thing is a done deal.

Excellent news, although the four million dollars is a bit steep.

[Chisoxfn]

Oh please, don't get me started with zone rating and meaningless statistics like that.  Orlando Cabrera and Omar Vizquel are different types of players.  Orlando Cabrera is a gap machine, and someone who has 20 home run power in a park like US Cellular field.  He is not an on base percentage guy.  Omar Vizquel although declining is still an excellent two hole hitter who has all the intangibles down to a science.

 

I'll say what I've said multiple times.  For an extra two million dollars a year, if you have a chance to get a guy like Orlando Cabrera you go and get him.

 

I want a team that is fielded for the park they play in.  Orlando Cabrera fits that mold.

Here's the thing, don't the Sox need a good 2 hole hitter, which you essentially said Vizuqel is?

 

I think Cabrerra is very similar to Uribe in a sense. We all know I like Uribe a lot so its not a knock, but if we wanted a guy to do what Cabrerra is capable the Sox would look to Uribe at ss (he may be at 2nd though) but the Sox are trying to find a guy for the front of the lineup who can do the little things and is a smart baseball player and thats what Vizquel is.

[redandwhite]

Here's the thing, don't the Sox need a good 2 hole hitter, which you essentially said Vizuqel is? 

 

I think Cabrerra is very similar to Uribe in a sense.  We all know I like Uribe a lot so its not a knock, but if we wanted a guy to do what Cabrerra is capable the Sox would look to Uribe at ss (he may be at 2nd though) but the Sox are trying to find a guy for the front of the lineup who can do the little things and is a smart baseball player and thats what Vizquel is.

Very true, which is why its excellent news that Omar Vizquel will be with the White Sox in that two hole next season.

 

I love the move, I do, I just think the moneys a bit steep. Thats all.

[Chisoxfn]

Very true, which is why its excellent news that Omar Vizquel will be with the White Sox in that two hole next season.

 

I love the move, I do, I just think the moneys a bit steep.  Thats all.

It all depends, I'm hoping the 2nd year is an option year, but who knows. I guess we'll see when it happens.

 

However, if he produces like he did this year and is a leader both on and off the field (which I think he will be) then I think he'll be worth 4 mill a year. We'll just have to wait and see.

[redandwhite]

It all depends, I'm hoping the 2nd year is an option year, but who knows.  I guess we'll see when it happens. 

 

However, if he produces like he did this year and is a leader both on and off the field (which I think he will be) then I think he'll be worth 4 mill a year.  We'll just have to wait and see.

Yup.

[witesoxfan]

Okay Einstien.  Is there only a right and a wrong with you?  Orlando Cabrera is a player made for certain parks, one of them being US Cellular Field.  He is just as much of a leader as Vizquel is.

 

All I am saying is this.  If the White Sox are going to pay four million dollars for Vizquel, which I hope we can both agree on is overpaying, why not go the extra mile and lock up Cabrera for six over three.

 

They have the Venezualan/Columbian connection, the guys a gap machine, and just as much of a leader as anyone in this league.

 

EDITED for your satisfaction.

They are not going to pay $6 mill per for Cabrera over 3-4 years and will pay $4 mill per over 2 years for Vizquel because Vizquel is a better #2 hitter, is cheaper, and can be considered the better defensive SS(due to his multiple GG's).

 

I don't care if Cabrera is a good fit for USCF, I don't want him on the White Sox. He costs more money, he costs more years, and he isn't a real good #2 hitter.