Punch and Judy Garland Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Scott Rolen is a better defender than Cabrera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Scott Rolen is a better defender than Cabrera Why you comparing those two??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox05 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Scott Rolen is a better defender than Cabrera No he is not. Â Scott Rolen is IMO the most overrated player defensively that i have heard of in quite some time. Back in Ventura's hay day, he was much better defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 No he is not. Scott Rolen is IMO the most overrated player defensively that i have heard of in quite some time. Back in Ventura's hay day, he was much better defensively. Orlando Cabrera is overrated too.  You can look at the numbers I posted, or ignore them...they are still there to look at though, and they tell the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Seriously, numbers don't lie. Â Â But I guess you saw Cabrera on webgems therefore making him the best defender in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I remember arguing that valentin is better defensively than cabrera by giving their range factors and zone rating over like the last 6 years. But the person said they did not buy into range factor and zone rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I remember arguing that valentin is better defensively than cabrera by giving their range factors and zone rating over like the last 6 years. But the person said they did not buy into range factor and zone rating. I stick to my statement that cabrera is just Juan Uribe who makes more money and might not even produce as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I remember arguing that valentin is better defensively than cabrera by giving their range factors and zone rating over like the last 6 years. But the person said they did not buy into range factor and zone rating. Don't know why anyone would do something like that. Â Sometimes, to figure out good a player is defensively, you have to look at stats outside the box. Basketball is exactly the same. You don't just look at how many steals a guy gets per game to determine how good he is defensively...you also look at how many points he gives up on average along with other stats. Just because a guy doesn't get a lot of steals does not mean he's not good defensively, right? Â So, in essence, the same argument can be made for baseball. Just because a guy makes a lot of errors does not mean he's bad defensively. You have to look at other forms of statistics to determine how good a player is defensively. Â What is a webgem for Cabrera can sometimes be a routine play for Jose Valentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Scott Rolen is not overrated, he's better than Ventura was? Why am I comparing the two? I don't know, it's kind of silly but the argument was that Cabrera is not only the best defensive ss but the best defender in baseball. I don't know how to compare Andruw Jones and Cabrera so I picked an infielder who I think is better. I see Rolen play everyday in SOuthern Illinois and I've never seen anyone as good as him at 3rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I have to agree the reason Jose has so many errors isn't that he's a bad defender. It's the fact that he gets lazy on the routine ones and loses his concentration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Scott Rolen is not overrated, he's better than Ventura was? Why am I comparing the two? I don't know, it's kind of silly but the argument was that Cabrera is not only the best defensive ss but the best defender in baseball. I don't know how to compare Andruw Jones and Cabrera so I picked an infielder who I think is better. I see Rolen play everyday in SOuthern Illinois and I've never seen anyone as good as him at 3rd. Ah, gotcha. Didn't read all the way back in the thread, sorry about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I stick to my statement that cabrera is just Juan Uribe who makes more money and might not even produce as well. I'll take that one step further. Â Give me Juan Uribe who is 5 years younger then Cabrera, has more versatility then Cabrera around the infield, is cheaper then Cabrera, has more power and hits better in the clutch(.308 7 58 .855 with runners on, .323 5 51 .934 with RISP, .340 5 28 1.096 with RISP w/ 2 outs, and 5-for-9 with a homer, 14 RBI, and a 1.711 OPS with the bases loaded) Â The main thing Cabrera has on Uribe is that he can actually steal bases. Â I'll let some other team take Cabrera for $6 mill while I keep Uribe and see him put up better numbers then Cabrera while making a twelfth of what he makes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 No he is not. Scott Rolen is IMO the most overrated player defensively that i have heard of in quite some time. Back in Ventura's hay day, he was much better defensively. That was supposed to be in green, right?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I'll take that one step further. Give me Juan Uribe who is 5 years younger then Cabrera, has more versatility then Cabrera around the infield, is cheaper then Cabrera, has more power and hits better in the clutch(.308 7 58 .855 with runners on, .323 5 51 .934 with RISP, .340 5 28 1.096 with RISP w/ 2 outs, and 5-for-9 with a homer, 14 RBI, and a 1.711 OPS with the bases loaded)  The main thing Cabrera has on Uribe is that he can actually steal bases.  I'll let some other team take Cabrera for $6 mill while I keep Uribe and see him put up better numbers then Cabrera while making a twelfth of what he makes. Well I guess, if you wanna make it complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I'll take that one step further. Give me Juan Uribe who is 5 years younger then Cabrera, has more versatility then Cabrera around the infield, is cheaper then Cabrera, has more power and hits better in the clutch(.308 7 58 .855 with runners on, .323 5 51 .934 with RISP, .340 5 28 1.096 with RISP w/ 2 outs, and 5-for-9 with a homer, 14 RBI, and a 1.711 OPS with the bases loaded)  The main thing Cabrera has on Uribe is that he can actually steal bases.  I'll let some other team take Cabrera for $6 mill while I keep Uribe and see him put up better numbers then Cabrera while making a twelfth of what he makes. I really do agree with what jason has said. That uribe has the making of tejeda, maybe not quite as good, but nearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I wouldn't want KW or Ozzie to condone Cabrera's play. I am referring to the three times in the playoffs that he popped out of his slide at 2nd coming up with elbows in the general vicinity of the middle infielder's head. I like hard-nosed play but not dirty play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I really do agree with what jason has said. That uribe has the making of tejeda, maybe not quite as good, but nearly. I can see that to an extent. Maybe not the 150 RBI seasons, but I can definately see similarities in the stats, and I can see it a little in the swings too. Â I could definately see Uribe becoming a .280 30 100 .800 guy someday, if not better. If he can stay out of those prolonged slumps of his, or atleast keep them short, he could hit .310-.320 over a full year...or he could hit a lot of homers. Or both. Â I Uribe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox05 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I could definately see Uribe becoming a .280 30 100 .800 guy someday, if not better. If he can stay out of those prolonged slumps of his, or atleast keep them short, he could hit .310-.320 over a full year...or he could hit a lot of homers. Or both.    I think at uribe's peak it would be   360 obp  300 avg  25 hr  His worst would be   240 avg  290 obp  10 hr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox05 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I wouldn't want KW or Ozzie to condone Cabrera's play. I am referring to the three times in the playoffs that he popped out of his slide at 2nd coming up with elbows in the general vicinity of the middle infielder's head. I like hard-nosed play but not dirty play. Hey man, i honestly think baseball needs more "dirty" plays. doing that s*** is legal and we need more of that especially with the new "pretty big" rivalry against the twins. Â Torri hunter try to injure our catcher and quite frankly i admire that unlike some on this forum. We need more players with a "torri" type attitude imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I think doing things like that can get your guys hurt. You can play hard without playing dirty. You can take out a 2nd basemen or bowl over a catcher without being dirty. I know what your saying in that you want to see a spark but I don't think that spark and clean play are mutually exclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I stick to my statement that cabrera is just Juan Uribe who makes more money and might not even produce as well. To be honest, I think thats an excellent comparison. Of course I think Uribe has Tejada like potential and I really think over the course of the next couple seasons he will prove me right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 To be honest, I think thats an excellent comparison. Of course I think Uribe has Tejada like potential and I really think over the course of the next couple seasons he will prove me right. It'd be interesting to see Uribe's numbers if he didn't end up playing for the White Sox at our ball park. He's only hit in 2 hitter friendly ball parks in his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 It'd be interesting to see Uribe's numbers if he didn't end up playing for the White Sox at our ball park. He's only hit in 2 hitter friendly ball parks in his career. Yeah but he hit much better here than he did in Coors, and that is the biggest hot spot for hitters  i think this lineup  SS Vizquel CF Rowand DH Big Hurt 1B Konerko LF Lee 2B Uribe RF Everett 3B Crede C Davis  Bench - Timo Bench - Burke Bench - Gload Bench - Harris  thats still a pretty good lineup, and thats with no additions aside from Vizquel... I think if we have that lineup, and use everything else to improve the pitching, we will have a VERY solid team for next year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 FWIW in 2001 Uribe played the 2nd half of the year for the Rockies and hit .300 with 53 RBI's. This year was the 1st he flashed real power potential though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 4 Mil works for me. Vizquel at SS, Uribe a 2b, Konerko at 1b, and Creede at 3b makes a pretty good IF. Maybe KW can break off some cash to hire Crede a full time hitting instructor. Aside from that I think an Sox IF like that is really solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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