This is combined from Monday's Tribune and Southtown:

 

When fans at Soxfest brought up the Torii Hunter play, Guillen said the Sox had a chance to retaliate about 2 weeks later, when a Sox player hit a ground ball with a runner on first during a gave vs. Twins. "This guy went into second like his wife was trying to turn a double play. That's why we kicked his butt out of here."

The Southtown says "While Guillen didn't name the player, speculation was that he likely was referring to Carlos Lee." The Tribune says Guillen was "referring to former Sox left fielder Carlos Lee, who was forced at second in the ninth inning. Guillen added that the Sox had "shipped" out the player."

That was my first guess at who that was. I could remember the play and was going to try to find play by play from that game to reconstruct it.

At whitesox.com they said it was later in the same game. Not two weeks after.

At whitesox.com they said it was later in the same game.  Not two weeks after.

 

I was there, Ozzie said it was two innings later, not two weeks.

So wait...lemme get this straight.

Ozzie was upset because Lee didn't go in hard to break up a DP a few innings later as retaliation?

 

 

MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE YOU DAMN PITCHER PEG SOMEONE IN THE RIBS!

There's retaliation. You sat on the opprotunity, don't be blaming Carlos.

So wait...lemme get this straight.

Ozzie was upset because Lee didn't go in hard to break up a DP a few innings later as retaliation?

MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE YOU DAMN PITCHER PEG SOMEONE IN THE RIBS!

There's retaliation.  You sat on the opprotunity, don't be blaming Carlos.

 

I disagree, like ozzie said yesterday, if he throws at torrie, he gets suspended, the pitcher gets suspended.

 

That play was a perfect opportunity to get back. Like Ozzie said "I want my players to play like torrie hunter did on that play"

 

I was guessing it was carlos when he talked about it at the seminar....

I don't wanna turn this into another debate on the drill Torii subject but, would Carlos going in hard really have sent the same message???

 

Ozzie shoulda had someone peg him, take the short suspension and send the message to the Twins that we aren't their b**** this year.

This is just stupid. You should ALWAYS go in hard. Is Ozzie saying he should have gone in w/ spikes up?

 

Pure bulls***.

I don't wanna turn this into another debate on the drill Torii subject but, would Carlos going in hard really have sent the same message???

 

Ozzie shoulda had someone peg him, take the short suspension and send the message to the Twins that we aren't their b**** this year.

 

I think it would have. The players would have known what message was trying to be sent there. It may have started a brawl. Oh well though; everything in this debate is what if. I liked Carlos and all, but like KW said, we never won anything with him here.

Yeah, it's all hypothetical anyway.

It's a mott argurment, the pitcher did nothing, Carlos did nothing.

We were still the Twins b****.

 

End of story.

I don't wanna turn this into another debate on the drill Torii subject but, would Carlos going in hard really have sent the same message???

 

Ozzie shoulda had someone peg him, take the short suspension and send the message to the Twins that we aren't their b**** this year.

 

He could have sent the message. You can go from going in hard, to rolling the SS/2B. Rolling him is what Carlos needed to do. He needed to make hard contact.

Alright, I can see that. But Oz can't blame Carlos when he just sat on his ass and didn't have his pitcher hit anyone...

See what I'm saying?

All this is old news. Coulda woulda shoulda. It's a new year and message needs to sent to the Twins. Very first pitch to a Twins hitter in 2005 needs to be "chin music". Throw down the damn gauntlet and let's go kick some ass.

Alright, I can see that.  But Oz can't blame Carlos when he just sat on his ass and didn't have his pitcher hit anyone...

See what I'm saying?

That was Ozzie's point. If the players were upset about what happened, go out and do something about it. You don't have to be told, you have the green light.

I wouldn't mind that at all, as long as we beat them on the filed as well. Let's not get too emotional over it and lose sight of the real goal.

All this is old news.  Coulda woulda shoulda.  It's a new year and message needs to sent to the Twins. Very first pitch to a Twins hitter in 2005 needs to be "chin music".  Throw down the damn gauntlet and let's go kick some ass.

All this is old news.  Coulda woulda shoulda.  It's a new year and message needs to sent to the Twins. Very first pitch to a Twins hitter in 2005 needs to be "chin music".  Throw down the damn gauntlet and let's go kick some ass.

 

Its not old news. The point is to make sure it doesn't happen again. The best way to achieve that is to get players who won't allow s*** like that to happen. That's why you get an AJP type player.

Alright, I can see that.  But Oz can't blame Carlos when he just sat on his ass and didn't have his pitcher hit anyone...

See what I'm saying?

Ozzie wanted the players to retaliate, oz has said numerous times and a lot of times this weekend also that if Hunter was on his team he would have hugged the guy, he also said if the players didn't like it they should have done something about it.

Ozzie wanted the players to retaliate, oz has said numerous times and a lot of times this weekend also that if Hunter was on his team he would have hugged the guy, he also said if the players didn't like it they should have done something about it.

 

The big thing he kept saying was they shouldn't just talk about it. If they were mad do something about it. He also said that whatever they would have done, the team would have backed them up.

The big thing he kept saying was they shouldn't just talk about it.  If they were mad do something about it.  He also said that whatever they would have done, the team would have backed them up.

Yup, he talked about that nothing gets accomplished talking about it through the media, he also mentioned freddy's retaliation problem was that was a couple months later. As for Carlos I don't recall that exact play ozzie is thinking of and carlos always seemed to be someone that went into 2nd hard, very surprising to me.

Yup, he talked about that nothing gets accomplished talking about it through the media, he also mentioned freddy's retaliation problem was that was a couple months later.  As for Carlos I don't recall that exact play ozzie is thinking of and carlos always seemed to be someone that went into 2nd hard, very surprising to me.

 

Ozzie exact words were that the player went into second base "like his wife was playing SS. So we got rid of his butt."

Ozzie exact words were that the player went into second base "like his wife was playing SS.  So we got rid of his butt."

Ya, like I said I just don't recall that exact play obviously it stuck with ozzie because he probably did want the players to go after someone by themselves but like I said it just struck me about carlos because one thing about Lee he always did seem to go into 2nd hard but I guess he didn't on that particular play.

I think this is just BS. This is just managment looking to further justify shipping Carlos out. IMO he hasn't said anything against the Sox so why in the heck are we saying this stuff about him.

I think it's funny how Ozzie is basically blaming the season on Carlos when all Carlos did was put up .305/31/99. The Sox would have not been in a situation like that if we had a 5th starter, or if Crede batted .275 or Valentin. Blaming the season on one play in one game by one player is ridiculous.

 

By the way, I was very pissed that the sox did NOT retaliate. Torrie Hunters hit on Burke changed the momentum of the season for the Twins, however if we did hit one of their batters, was momentum coming back to us? Doubt it.

 

Bill

Ozzie wanted the players to retaliate, oz has said numerous times and a lot of times this weekend also that if Hunter was on his team he would have hugged the guy, he also said if the players didn't like it they should have done something about it.

That means ALL the players -- so where was the retaliation from anybody else? If there wasn't any, why was Carlos the only one "shipped" out?

 

Ozzie is full of s*** on this. The play he's talking about wasn't even a dp (from listening on the radio, it doesn't even sound as if a throw was made to 1b). There WAS a dp in the 8th inning too, w/ Rowand going into 2b. Wonder why he doesn't mention that play... Ozzie's looking for an excuse for not retaliating until September (he also defends himself by saying that FG threw at someone in September...when we were swept...), and an excuse to run his mouth. And it's more character assassination of someone who improved himself while here and left in a classy way -- after signing AJP. (Interestingly, in the Hunter-Burke game, John Rooney mentioned that the Twins were very glad to lose AJP.) For the rest of this offseason, anytime Sox management announces how important character is, it's just bs.

I think it's funny how Ozzie is basically blaming the season on Carlos when all Carlos did was put up .305/31/99.  The Sox would have not been in a situation like that if we had a 5th starter, or if Crede batted .275 or Valentin.  Blaming the season on one play in one game by one player is ridiculous.

 

By the way, I was very pissed that the sox did NOT retaliate.  Torrie Hunters hit on Burke changed the momentum of the season for the Twins, however if we did hit one of their batters, was momentum coming back to us?  Doubt it.

 

Bill

 

He wasn't blaming the whole season on Carlos by any stretch of imagination. He was talking about that particular play and the way the team responded to it.